Timeline for On the false dichotomy between quality and kindness
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
24 events
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Jun 27, 2021 at 21:31 | comment | added | Nate T | @NathanTuggy pretty sure that behavioral therapy only works when a.) target wants the intervention, or b.) target is forced into it. But this works even better, I guess. I tend to look at things from a psych. pov, as well. I've been observing how people each find their own justifications when in a corner behind a pack mentality (think 30's Germany.) Imo, your's is the most interesting here. Not sarcasm, I am impressed. | |
May 1, 2018 at 22:58 | comment | added | Shog9 | Professional writers are notorious for their moodiness and fixation on rejection, @PasserBy... But, the sting affects us all, from the author of the technical HOWTO to the writer who texts a heart emoji to their sweetie. We can't do much about that, nor probably should we - manipulating people's emotions is in many ways worse than the illness it seeks to cure. But, we can avoid rubbing salt in the wound. Let us ensure that those questions disappear without adding insult to injury... | |
May 1, 2018 at 22:55 | comment | added | Shog9 | I believe it may be, @mbrig | |
May 1, 2018 at 17:49 | comment | added | mbrig | @Shog9 I think you've mentioned this before in reference to all the ideas people have for stopping/punishing duplicate questions/answers to duplicates, something along the line of "giving no feedback at all is better for correcting behavior than snark or downvotes". Perhaps this is a point in favor of one of those proposals for hiding low-rep users downvotes from them. | |
May 1, 2018 at 16:24 | comment | added | Passer By | Upon reflection, I came to the conclusion I once felt personal and devastated by downvotes because I poured my heart and soul into the content. This brought up the question: some VLQ questions obviously isn't written with such effort, why then is it a concern if the OP took it so hard too? | |
May 1, 2018 at 6:12 | comment | added | Raedwald | Do we have an existing SE or SO meta question discussing that study? If Not, perhaps you could create one? | |
May 1, 2018 at 6:08 | comment | added | Raedwald | Thanks for pointing us to that study. It is very important to know that down votes and operant conditioning might not work. I wonder however how applicable that study is to the SE model. | |
Apr 30, 2018 at 22:30 | comment | added | Shog9 | It's also likely to be a very small effect, @TylerH. What's most surprising is that there isn't a strong contrary effect, as one of the persistent arguments for downvoting is that it serves as a deterrent - of course, we kinda already knew that, hence the years of increasingly complex quality-ban systems. | |
Apr 30, 2018 at 15:16 | comment | added | TylerH | Interesting... so negative feedback causes people to post things of worse quality and more frequently. That's an odd effect! | |
Apr 30, 2018 at 3:51 | comment | added | Eaten by a Grue | @roganjosh - For the vast majority of Facebook's existence you could only upvote (like) a post. For many hundreds of millions (billions?) of people, that is what they have been spoon fed before their first encounter with SO and I'm going to venture that the idea of complete strangers downvoting their post without any explanation at all is going to come as a shock. That is why many first time users are complaining. It's actually Facebook's fault. | |
Apr 30, 2018 at 3:23 | comment | added | jmoreno | "To me, that's a pretty scary thought: we may inadvertently be optimizing for participation by the very authors we thought we were discouraging."-- we shouldn't be discouraging users from posting, we should be discouraging them from posting crap. The question shouldn't be are they more likely to come back, but is their subsequent impact beneficial. Do you have any numbers on that? | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 15:58 | comment | added | roganjosh | Getting a bad reception from SO on the first post doesn't mean that a particular person will suddenly find it impossible to overcome their issue and develop as a programmer. Those that cannot move forward in any direction were never going to be useful in the future anyway. The rest will almost certainly find they have to draw on SO past answers, and will probably become aware of why they got downvoted in the first place. My gut feeling is that this issue only exists because of things like FB where upvotes/downvotes suddenly have a direct link to self-worth. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 14:50 | comment | added | user6655984 | Looks like the correlation/causation fallacy. A basic JavaScript question gets downvotes, but also answers or pointers to an answer. A complex question on a niche topic gets crickets. Yes, the author of JS question is more likely to come back, but not because they were downvoted. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 12:51 | comment | added | Nathan Tuggy | Sounds like the described increase in interaction after negative reinforcement is classical "extinguishing" behavior at work. Unfortunately, as far as I know, the only way to handle extinguishing is to finish the job, stay the course, and keep incentives consistent and present. Or, here, keep downvoting someone's posts whenever they're bad until they figure out how to stop writing bad posts, or stop coming. | |
Apr 29, 2018 at 12:04 | history | edited | Peter Mortensen | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Active reading [<https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/downvote#Verb>] Presumed Jeff Atwood.
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Apr 29, 2018 at 7:51 | comment | added | Peter Taylor | "we may inadvertently be optimizing for participation by the very authors we thought we were discouraging"??! Who votes for the purpose of discouraging an author from participating? | |
Apr 28, 2018 at 22:24 | comment | added | Oleg | Anyway I'm glad to see a post that focuses on quality of content by an SO employee instead of feelings of some people who are not even using this site. | |
Apr 28, 2018 at 22:14 | comment | added | Oleg | That study is about comments on articles which require almost no effort, I don't think it's comparable to asking a good question on SO. Looking at the data you gathered voting has a very small impact especially when compared to engagement (Answered, Edited, Commented and Nothing). I'm also not sure what is the goal here if you don't want people whose first post was downvoted(why?) to participate just ban them. | |
Apr 28, 2018 at 22:02 | comment | added | fbueckert | So we are, in essence, feeding them to the system ban by upholding the quality standards. That seems less than ideal, if we're trying to be more welcoming to new users. While I certainly believe we can do better, I'm not sure what we can do that doesn't compromise upholding that all important quality. Not downvoting because they're new is personal, not just the perception of it anymore. Just walking away has the desired immediate effect, while compromising quality in the long term. It's a thorny issue. | |
Apr 28, 2018 at 21:47 | comment | added | Magisch | This is doubly bad for new users - they don't know the culture yet. There is no reason for a newbie to believe that they can salvage their heavily downvoted, heavily criticised post. That is completly leaving out the bandwagon effect - which I have to admit I'm also sometimes guilty of. If I see a post with -4 and 4 close votes, that post is gonna get at best a cursory reading and probably another downvote and/or closevote. Whereas a neutral has a fairer shot. This is happening for me even while I'm aware of the effect and trying to not fall for it - powerful stuff | |
Apr 28, 2018 at 21:46 | comment | added | Magisch | to get out of that even if you do fix your post (unless your question becomes awesome, your -6 closed post is just not going to attract the clout to reward editing efforts) often times triggers a defensive response and a "why even bother" reaction. I'm gonna be honest, if I asked a question on SO and it got closed and heavily downvoted, I'd probably not bother fixing it - the mechanism to get reopened & get out of that hole you dug yourself in are a shot in the dark in that case | |
Apr 28, 2018 at 21:43 | comment | added | Magisch | An ideal solution here would separate the utility of downvoting for readers from the effects of downvoting on authors, particularly new authors. One way to achieve this would be to show downvotes only a day or so after asking - after the asker has had ample opportunity to fix their post. Because often times, I've noticed, a asker of a bad question gets plenty of comments advising them on what is wrong with their post - it might even be closed, which also advises you on what to fix. But triple-dipping with also having your post downvoted to like -5 (with, lets face it very little chance | |
Apr 28, 2018 at 21:15 | history | edited | Shog9 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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Apr 28, 2018 at 21:05 | history | answered | Shog9 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |