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Jan 24, 2020 at 9:08 comment added Rainb Stackoverflow is now a nice site for nice professional or nice enthusiast developers.
May 21, 2018 at 13:34 comment added EJoshuaS - Stand with Ukraine Probably already mentioned, but being a duplicate can be a reason to downvote if the duplicate would've been easy to find through a simple search. After all, the first part of the downvote tooltip says "this question does not show any research effort..."
May 8, 2018 at 0:10 comment added apaul @NicolBolas It already looks like we're at a point where no amount of evidence will be enough for those that don't want to see it, and no evidence is needed for those that already see it. What I was trying to illustrate is that an awful lot of folks are doing that thing they don't want to see... Basically "hey, there's your proof. You're doing the thing right now. This is what explicit bias looks like, no need to look further."
May 8, 2018 at 0:03 comment added J... @apaul Notwithstanding that I made one clear, focused rebuttal to one clear, focused, point in the post above, I will more generally say (to your more vague and general accusation) that I fail to see how having an objective, rational discussion constitutes "unwillingness to face" the issue. It would seem, in fact, that SO, generally, is more than willing to face this issue head-on, and to discuss it frankly and intelligently; something for which I am truly quite grateful.
May 8, 2018 at 0:02 comment added Nicol Bolas @apaul: Since you missed my point, I'll reiterate: "Even if you actually are right, it does absolutely nothing to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you." So, do you want to get people on your side, or do you want to make things more polarized?
May 7, 2018 at 23:57 comment added apaul So, you really want to say that folks haven't demonstrated some really explicit feelings about the subject in all of this? I mean, some of it has come pretty far out in the open... It's one thing to claim personal innocence, it's another to claim that everyone is innocent, and yet another to claim that an issue simply doesn't exist anywhere because it's all propoganda...
May 7, 2018 at 23:52 comment added Nicol Bolas @apaul: "I'm pointing out that the backlash kinda demonstrates the issue." Never in the history of humanity has the statement "if you're disagreeing with me, that means I'm right" ever won an argument. Even if you actually are right, it does absolutely nothing to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you. So the only purpose it serves in such a discussion is to make you and those who agree feel better about themselves. What you don't realize is that statements of this form are a big part of where this backlash is coming from.
May 7, 2018 at 23:38 comment added apaul Same could be said about that implicit bias, ya'know?
May 7, 2018 at 23:37 comment added Nicol Bolas @apaul: You can believe that you're being careful when you're carrying around that nitroglycerine. You can "try" to be careful. But if it blows up in your face, your beliefs and your "try" won't put your body back together again.
May 7, 2018 at 23:36 comment added apaul Once again, I'm pointing out that the backlash kinda demonstrates the issue.
May 7, 2018 at 23:35 comment added apaul Eh, admittedly could have been worded better, but that's not to say that the author and other members of the team didn't try to word it very carefully.
May 7, 2018 at 23:29 comment added Nicol Bolas @apaul: Calling that blog post "carefully worded" is an insult to that very concept. And how "constructive" it is has been hotly debated, or haven't you noticed? Indeed, even several SO employees will tell you that it could have been worded better.
May 7, 2018 at 23:21 comment added apaul @J... The blog post being a carefully worded constructive criticism about SE's culture; one that spelled out some shortcomings that a great many seem unwilling to face. Seeing it yet?
May 7, 2018 at 23:08 comment added J... @apaul No, I don't think I am...
May 7, 2018 at 23:03 comment added apaul @J... "you can't improve yourself if you're never made to face your own shortcomings." Said the guy who's unwilling to face a very carefully worded constructive criticism... Hmm... Are you seeing what I'm seeing?
May 7, 2018 at 22:36 comment added Clint "No matter how well-stated that question is, it's still about something you could have found via Google. And is therefore worthy of a downvote." Why? Isn't the goal of SO for askers to get answers no matter the question (as long as non-duplicate)? So what if there's a top answer on google? I will skip that top answer and go straight to the SO q/a.
May 3, 2018 at 1:37 answer added CJ Dennis timeline score: 0
Apr 30, 2018 at 17:36 comment added Thomas G Whenever @NicolBolas deals damage to an opponent, that player discards their hand.
Apr 30, 2018 at 14:12 answer added JeffUK timeline score: -7
Apr 30, 2018 at 13:12 comment added ישו אוהב אותך @Oleg: Everybody can express his own opinion. op says (we downvote posts, not people, and it is highly discouraging to me that an actual employee for the company that invented this policy cannot tell the difference) hence I downvoted the post. We communicate with human not a thing. You're reacting with my comment and downvote proving that a post or a comment is tightly related with who is the poster not what is the post. So, logically my previous comment isn't wrong. But morally, it's far from kindness. Afaik, we grow up because of people kindness.
Apr 30, 2018 at 12:39 comment added J... @BoltClock You say that with irony, but it is. In the real world, a company can't function with employees who have emotional breakdowns any time an EPR contains some constructive criticism. Professional development is impossible if one is not willing to objectively examine their own competence - you can't improve yourself if you're never made to face your own shortcomings. The alternative is to turn SO into Facebook - nothing but likes, hearts, and smiles pasted onto a heap of garbage.
Apr 30, 2018 at 12:33 comment added BoltClock Mod @J...: That sounds like a totally professional thing to say.
Apr 30, 2018 at 12:23 comment added J... @BoltClock people still perceive downvotes as a slight on them in the sense that we're telling them the content that they write is bad and not worth considering. Which is a problem with the people that perceive things that way, full stop. This is a site for professional developers. If a professional can't accept the fact that they've produced work that is poor, and then take steps to correct that, then they have no hope of being a successful professional. The world's purpose goes beyond affirming the incompetence of emotionally frail people.
Apr 30, 2018 at 10:50 answer added shogged timeline score: -38
Apr 30, 2018 at 10:29 history edited Nathan Tuggy
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Apr 30, 2018 at 3:43 comment added ישו אוהב אותך I'm downvoted the post because it wasn't a human.
Apr 29, 2018 at 14:37 comment added Mark Amery @ClementCherlin Posts on Meta are not required to be questions, despite the format. Nicol's post is tagged discussion and is a sensible starting point for discussion; it's fine.
Apr 29, 2018 at 1:21 review Close votes
Apr 29, 2018 at 3:16
Apr 29, 2018 at 1:04 comment added Clement Cherlin This is a diatribe, not a question. Please rephrase it as a question.
Apr 28, 2018 at 21:39 answer added NoDataDumpNoContribution timeline score: -17
Apr 28, 2018 at 21:05 answer added Shog9 timeline score: 63
Apr 28, 2018 at 20:11 answer added Nick LarsenMod timeline score: -186
Apr 28, 2018 at 18:42 comment added jrh @Oleg hypothetically if SO had no front page, and no roomba, I wonder how long it would take somebody with at least slightly more knowledge than the OP to search for the question (either to remind themselves, or to find out if their old method is the best possible option). While I haven't posted a ton of answers, this is usually my method (most of the time there is already an answer of nearly the level of quality I'd like to see, so I just comment). I don't use the front page because it usually takes several hours for me to compose an answer (I try to be as rigorous as possible).
Apr 28, 2018 at 17:57 comment added NobodyNada According to Jon Ericson (follow the chain of chat replies), the intended meaning blog post is not that downvotes are hostile, but that new users falsely perceive downvotes as hostile. (However, even after that explanation I can't figure out how the blog post could be interpreted the "intended" way, and there seems to be internal disagreement about it.)
Apr 28, 2018 at 17:36 comment added Oleg @jrh I don't see how it could've existed.
Apr 28, 2018 at 17:02 comment added jrh Purely as a thought experiment, I kind of wonder sometimes what SO would be like if it didn't have a front page at all, and everyone only answered questions that they searched for. Off the top of my head, upsides: There would be less concern about having answerers filter through a list of questions they're not interested in, there wouldn't be a rush to get a (sometimes garbage) FGITW answer out. Downsides: It might take a long time to get an answer (hard questions take a while to get answers anyway). "Quick answers to easy questions" was once a selling point/goal of SO, is it still now?
Apr 28, 2018 at 17:02 answer added Nicol Bolas timeline score: 150
Apr 28, 2018 at 16:53 answer added Raedwald timeline score: 24
Apr 28, 2018 at 16:35 comment added user4639281 If that blog post was here on meta it would have been downvoted into oblivion by now (unless of course Joel were to link to the meta post on his twitfacegram account). It is phrased as the start of a discussion, but presented as an announcement of fact.
Apr 28, 2018 at 16:02 answer added Oleg timeline score: 39
Apr 28, 2018 at 15:48 comment added Oleg @NicolBolas Yes, "We're on the same side only in that we want to defend SO's quality from attempts to have kindness undermine it" was what I meant.
Apr 28, 2018 at 15:48 comment added Nicol Bolas @Oleg: "We're on the same side here" I rather doubt that we are, since I disagree with that answer. We're on the same side only in that we want to defend SO's quality from attempts to have kindness undermine it. But we're not on the same side in terms of exactly what forms of kindness actually undermine it.
Apr 28, 2018 at 15:46 comment added Oleg @NicolBolas We're on the same side here but sorry, no. I think that it answers the question much better than what I had originally planned and I don't need your permission to post an answer.
Apr 28, 2018 at 15:41 comment added Nicol Bolas @Oleg: I'd prefer that you post your original answer, not merely a copy&paste-with-stuff from someone else's.
Apr 28, 2018 at 15:40 comment added Oleg @duplode &Nicol Alright I will repost it here with some small changes.
Apr 28, 2018 at 15:39 comment added duplode @Oleg "Duplicate is about the answers not the question" -- That is a clear cut principle on the main site, where Q&As are expected to be objective; it is not quite the same in a Meta discussion. Your opinion that Hans' answer conclusive settles this discussion is very much up to debate, and we don't do debates through close-reopen wars.
Apr 28, 2018 at 15:37 comment added Nicol Bolas @Oleg: But it involves lots of issues that aren't the topic of this question. Old close reasons being removed, filtering comments, etc. That has nothing to do with the specific topic in question here. Indeed, the first sentence of the last paragraph proposes the actually false part of the dichotomy: saying "Good Morning" in no way inhibits being able to ask a good question or provide a good answer. Not that I want to see that sort of fluff, of course.
Apr 28, 2018 at 15:34 comment added Nicol Bolas @Oleg: I see nothing in that answer which talks specifically about the topics I raised here.
Apr 28, 2018 at 15:33 comment added Nicol Bolas @Oleg: Um, how is this a duplicate of that question? There's no mention of the blog post that this question is talking about. Just because you like someone else's answer on another post doesn't mean that the question is a duplicate of that one. Especially since that answer is not really an answer to this question.
Apr 28, 2018 at 15:29 comment added duplode @BDL Yup. I do think sometimes too much weight is given to the "you don't know why someone cast a downvote" counter-argument. That tale about Tim's keys is primarily about isolated downvotes; it can't be used to explain away a perceived broader trend.
Apr 28, 2018 at 15:19 comment added Patrice @Raedwald please don't rehash this discussion, again. Between "not all users see these comments as nice", "users will not want to change, even with comments, so it just costs more time to users downvoting, for no change", "people will post bs justifications", "do we get comments on upvotes too", "it just opens all users up to abuse, or the system up for abuse (people commenting then deleting their comment)"... there are many many reason why this doesn't make sense, or wouldn't necessarily be scalable.
Apr 28, 2018 at 15:18 comment added Nicol Bolas @BDL: "the whole discussion is about subjective feelings." Discussing subjective feelings is OK, generally speaking. But the blog post is very much aiming that discussion of "subjective feelings" at essential aspects of what makes SO what it is. That's not OK. It's doubly "not OK" when it tries to pretend that it isn't doing that.
Apr 28, 2018 at 15:00 comment added Raedwald Why we are so opposed to explaining downvotes: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/357436/…
Apr 28, 2018 at 14:55 comment added gnat related? On large communities decaying over time, being nice or mean, and Stack Overflow
Apr 28, 2018 at 14:50 comment added Raedwald Irony: the most recent attempt to encourage people to explain downvotes is "status-declined": meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/253531/…
Apr 28, 2018 at 14:31 comment added BDL You never now why people voted. But in my opinion it happens way too often that a question is closed as duplicate and downvoted although the question is imho perfectly fine and sometimes even better than the duplicate. I know this is just my subjective feeling, but hey, the whole discussion is about subjective feelings. I don't have a problem when others perceive that differently but that's my feeling and I can imagine why the blog author wrote such a statement.
Apr 28, 2018 at 14:31 comment added BoltClock Mod @Nicol Bolas: I agree. I'm saying that the author of the blog post probably knows the difference. I'm not trying to discredit your views on this matter.
Apr 28, 2018 at 14:25 comment added Nicol Bolas @BDL: How could the poster of the blog possibly know if the post he saw was downvoted because it was a duplicate or because it was bad? He didn't link to it; he simply said that it was from a new poster.
Apr 28, 2018 at 14:24 comment added BDL Non of this statements say "downvoting is bad" or "downvoting bad questions that are duplicates is bad". It (in my opinion) says "Downvoting duplicates because they are duplicates is something bad"
Apr 28, 2018 at 14:24 comment added Suraj Rao @BoltClock perhaps add the part of what downvoting means clearly in the tour and ask questions page? The tour only speaks of upvotes
Apr 28, 2018 at 14:23 comment added Nicol Bolas @BoltClock: You can't reconcile them. Not without diminishing the ability of people to signal where quality questions are(n't). That's what a dichotomy is: you can't have both. If we want quality, we have to sacrifice some degree of "kindness".
Apr 28, 2018 at 14:20 comment added BoltClock Mod I get the impression that the specific phrasing was deliberate. We can all wax lyrical about how we downvote posts, not people, but the fact remains that people still perceive downvotes as a slight on them in the sense that we're telling them the content that they write is bad and not worth considering. The conundrum then is how we can reconcile these two facts: one that votes are intended to reflect the quality of a post and not the competence of the person who wrote it, and the other that people see votes differently.
Apr 28, 2018 at 14:15 history edited Nicol Bolas CC BY-SA 3.0
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Apr 28, 2018 at 14:07 history asked Nicol Bolas CC BY-SA 3.0