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Jan 1, 2019 at 0:00 history edited Makoto CC BY-SA 4.0
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Mar 14, 2018 at 15:29 vote accept Makoto
Mar 9, 2018 at 21:31 answer added Travis J timeline score: 21
Mar 9, 2018 at 18:40 comment added Troy Turley You stirred up quite a conversation with that one. :) The interesting thing I've noticed is that it's not as much of an issue in many of the Stack Exchange groups.
Mar 9, 2018 at 18:09 comment added Makoto @TroyTurley: Yes, I do see rude responses. I even made a Meta post about it once. What I learned from that is that rudeness is still subjective. Dealing with that can't be done in broad strokes.
Mar 9, 2018 at 16:28 comment added Troy Turley To avoid the risk of offending anyone in particular I'd rather not share any specific instances. I realize it's subjective but are you saying that you never see rude responses? Wouldn't you agree that in a civil group of intelligent individuals rudeness should be avoided?
Mar 9, 2018 at 16:09 comment added Makoto I don't disagree there @TroyTurley, but in context, there are tens of thousands of askers, and maybe a handful of active and earnest answerers. It does get tiring to have to ask the same thing over and over again - "Where's your code?" "Where's your error?" "What inputs are you trying?" Anything truly offensive or inappropriate can be dealt with via comment flags. But arrogance? Kinda depends on the comment. Got any examples?
Mar 9, 2018 at 16:08 comment added Troy Turley @Makoto - I didn't say that they shouldn't have to abide by standards. I just think it's not helpful to be rude about it. I see plenty of polite, helpful responses that ultimately teach the new user "how to ask" but I also see quite a few arrogant responses that are not helpful.
Mar 9, 2018 at 15:48 answer added learning321A timeline score: -2
Mar 9, 2018 at 15:22 comment added Makoto @TroyTurley: It's a two way street, y'know? We're here volunteering our time, and they're looking for knowledge. All we ask (and really, all we ask) is that they abide by our standards. If they can't, and then they turn tail, there's really not much left to say; they don't want to be helped by us. There's other problems in the middle there but ultimately, I can't say I feel bad about not helping someone who willfully ignores our standards.
Mar 9, 2018 at 15:04 comment added Troy Turley Arrogant or rude responses aren't helpful either. I see a lot of that. I bet a lot of new users who could eventually become productive SO citizens are sent away with their tail between their legs before they ever have a chance to learn and improve.
Mar 9, 2018 at 14:59 comment added TylerH @Auspex Come now, a blatant attempt to show superiority? People might regularly use the acronym because that's how industry speak works. You should never assume malice just because someone uses an acronym you don't know. And handily, the system will auto convert to a fully-written link if you type [mcve] in brackets in a comment.
Mar 9, 2018 at 14:54 comment added Auspex I can only say, I've been in this business for 37 years, and I had to look up "MCVE". If you're literally asking for an "MCVE", you shouldn't even be on SO. That's a blatant attempt to show your superiority. That said, nobody has ever asked me for an MCVE, but have asked me to show code... Also, I think we have to have some leeway: an awful lot of people are using frameworks they don't understand (and have no choice about it). They can debug their code, but don't know enough to debug what's going on under the hood.
Mar 9, 2018 at 9:34 answer added Andy Clifton timeline score: -6
Mar 9, 2018 at 8:05 answer added Jorn Vernee timeline score: 9
Mar 9, 2018 at 7:58 answer added Raedwald timeline score: 7
Mar 9, 2018 at 7:36 comment added Hans Kesting @will and specifically idownvotedbecau.se/nodebugging/#howtodebug
Mar 8, 2018 at 17:38 comment added user1228 related: idownvotedbecau.se/nodebugging
Mar 8, 2018 at 14:23 answer added Guy Schalnat timeline score: 10
Mar 8, 2018 at 6:55 comment added Max I do agree with you, it is really frustrating when the development environment is different. Not long ago, I was being blamed for not doing my job properly because of that. I’m using Win 10 and my boss is using Win 7. The program I developed works fine on my PC but not my boss’s PC due to registry setting. To solve the problem, I need to modify the registry data but I’m not allowed because of permission. I explained the scenario to my boss but still get blamed ☹
Mar 8, 2018 at 6:26 comment added Makoto @Max: My patience has limits. I'm more than patient with novices. I refuse to tolerate not being able to actually produce code that shows what error they're running into.
Mar 8, 2018 at 6:23 comment added Max be calm and patient. Give the novice a little guidance, maybe not straight answers but at least point them the right directions, so they can search and learn.**i'm novice**, I don’t expect people to do free coding. If they do, that’s wonderful. If they don’t, that’s fine. If they comment useful information, very much appreciated. In terms of debugging, for novice, maybe they don’t even know what you are talking about. If you are patient enough to provide step by step guidance, that very kind in deep. Of course, not all novice are willing to search. I would say "support" depends on your mood.
Mar 8, 2018 at 6:03 comment added Martin James 'I'm wanting to take the temperature of the room' well, as you might guess, my temp is about absolute zero on this issue. It's often just a waste of time to try. Users lie and mislead. They say that files are defintely open when they are not. They insist that 'the problem is not in function X that I have not posted' and expect us to believe that without evidence. The OP is the only one with the compiler. linker, environment, debugger, logger etc in front of them. In most cases, asking others to troubleshoot via some slow, text communncation in comments is just a pointless waste or time.
Mar 8, 2018 at 5:39 answer added Ben timeline score: 14
Mar 8, 2018 at 5:36 comment added Martin James Meh - half of them are incapable of, or unwilling to, priniting out a variable value, never mind using an actual debugger:(
Mar 8, 2018 at 5:25 comment added Modus Tollens @CPerkins Learning how to debug is so vital for software developers that I'd say it is absolutely ok for us to expect a certain level of it without having to dumb down to cater for users who didn't learn it yet. All I see we could do is point them to resources teaching about it and ask them to come back later.
Mar 8, 2018 at 5:08 comment added C Perkins Okay, but if we always insist they must move toward the middle then the middle is always closer and closer to us until they are at the same level. We actually never meet in the middle in that case. This is the entire point of my first comment... to point out that SO has proven over years of discussion on meta about newbies that we are essentially not going to move. We like it here. We're at a higher level and don't want to dumb down our forums, yet like you said we just shoot down over and over again real alternatives. Sorry, I was really not trying to be argumentative, just honest.
Mar 8, 2018 at 4:53 comment added Makoto They have to meet us in the middle @CPerkins. We're bending over quite a lot here...
Mar 8, 2018 at 4:52 comment added C Perkins Huh? First you say " However, the only way to make this site work is to meet in the middle." and then you immediate say "No... It's not about us (as in Stack Overflow) meeting in the middle." I'm really confused.
Mar 8, 2018 at 4:44 comment added Makoto Mm...no, that's been explored a dozen times and shot down a dozen and one times over and over again @CPerkins. It's not about us (as in Stack Overflow) meeting in the middle. I feel like we're doing quite a lot of acquiescing, frankly.
Mar 8, 2018 at 4:40 comment added C Perkins @Makoto I agree completely that some posters just do not understand enough about coding/debugging yet. My intention in commenting was simply to point out that possible solutions have been hashed over and over again. Perhaps the problem is in trying to make SO meet in the middle. Perhaps there should be a completely separate forum where novice questions are forwarded / weclomed, where "off topic" discussion is not immediately shunned, and where "hand holding" is not only okay, but is the order of the day.
Mar 8, 2018 at 4:31 comment added Makoto @BoltClock: I was worried there. <3
Mar 8, 2018 at 4:30 comment added BoltClock Mod @Makoto: Yeah I recognize that, I'm just memeing.
Mar 8, 2018 at 4:22 comment added Makoto @CPerkins: I personally have no problem with novice programmers. However, the only way to make this site work is to meet in the middle. If a novice programmer literally cannot reproduce code that they are getting an error for, not because they don't have the code but because they genuinely cannot understand the mechanical process of doing that...then I'm not convinced we're equipped to support them.
Mar 8, 2018 at 4:15 comment added C Perkins I like that this questions approaches an old problem from a different perspective. But I'm not sure that the underlying dilemma is much different than many other questions about new / novice users. The sad things is that good questions and good answers have been posted repeatedly for many years, yet little has been done to actually implement anything significant for novice users. A few tweaks here and there, but nothing substantial. For all of the wonderful topics of Stack Exchange forums (incl. SO), there is apparent hesitancy to create something truly tailored for novice programmers.
Mar 8, 2018 at 4:12 comment added Makoto @BoltClock: Yes, we're a debugging site. I'm not entirely a fan of resigning myself to that thought, but it's largely the way the site is\ going. However, does that mean we have to teach users the very basics of debugging, which is definitely a prerequisite for one narrowing down their problem into something small and reproducible?
Mar 8, 2018 at 3:43 comment added BoltClock Mod @user202729: "get frustrated instead of trying to improve the question?" Yes. Does that flummox you? I don't think it's all that unheard of for someone to be frustrated at not understanding why things are the way they are. It's a very natural and common human emotion.
Mar 8, 2018 at 3:39 comment added BoltClock Mod S T A C K O V E R F L O W I S A D E B U G G I N G S I T E
Mar 8, 2018 at 3:24 comment added Mysticial What this the straw that broke your back?
Mar 8, 2018 at 2:30 comment added jscs I look forward to that post, @Makoto. I think it comes down to an issue mentioned in "A Group is its Own Worst Enemy" (heading "Three Things to Accept"). The "core group" here does not have (¿any longer?) the weight that it needs in order to do its "gardening". It is not being supported by the platform and/or it is outnumbered.
Mar 8, 2018 at 2:18 comment added Makoto Honestly, nowadays @JoshCaswell I'm starting to lean more towards that. I plan on writing up a big ol' SOS for user-oriented moderation in a few weeks, and that's one of my major bullet points. I suppose the issue is that I feel like (and I feel the consensus is) that there's really no way we can help those users, yet people try anyway. This then fosters an environment where some users believe it to be okay to not know how to debug at some level before posting a question here. Hence the problem.
Mar 8, 2018 at 2:12 comment added jscs Got it, thanks for explaining. "I don't know how to reconcile this with our stance" I don't know that we really have a contradiction. Think of another group of people with a common interest...let's say your local bowling league. The alley's public; you can show up whenever you want, but if you don't know that you have to keep the ball out of the gutter, you're not likely to get far in joining the group. That said, there's one -- to me -- obvious option, but I think it's a non-starter for SE.
Mar 8, 2018 at 2:02 comment added Makoto @JoshCaswell: The paradox would be that we allow people of all skill levels to post here, yet we always assume that irrespective of their skill level, they're equipped to at least know how to start solving their problem. Worse, we're left with situations in which users who don't know how to respond to our requirements may still flood in. I don't know how to reconcile this with our stance; we're meant to be a site for enthusiasts and professionals, yet...someone doesn't know how to debug their code??
Mar 8, 2018 at 1:46 comment added user202729 Also... A ask a bad question, get downvotes, and get frustrated instead of trying to improve the question?
Mar 8, 2018 at 1:40 comment added user202729 I think that we have How to debug using GDB for C++. And I suspect there is one for every language that is sufficiently widely used. We always have a dupe.
Mar 8, 2018 at 1:30 answer added jscs timeline score: 70
Mar 8, 2018 at 0:15 comment added Michael Cheng This is my first time on Meta and I came to ask this exact same question. I've run into a lot of users this past year on the react-native tag that don't seem to understand what MCVE is even when linked or seem to not understand that users can't help if no code is ever shown. This is ignoring the mass of questions that are just syntax or spelling errors that should be easily caught with knowing basic debugging. And now I'm starting to recognize users that clearly don't know how to do simple debugging (or just reading docs). Engaging them in comments didn't work for me. What is left to try?
Mar 8, 2018 at 0:05 comment added Andrew Myers @Makoto My thought is that users who don't get MCVEs could be directed to a page that gives general steps at a semi-basic level in the programming language of their problem. If they get it after that, fine. If they don't get that page, they can't be supported.
Mar 8, 2018 at 0:02 comment added jscs @Don'tPanic On the other hand, I'm an enthusiastic professional and sometimes I wish someone else would debug stuff for me! :)
Mar 8, 2018 at 0:00 comment added jscs I don't think I understand where the paradox is. Can you elaborate on that?
Mar 7, 2018 at 23:58 comment added Don't Panic Even I sort of know what debugging is and I'm neither professional nor enthusiastic.
Mar 7, 2018 at 23:57 comment added Makoto @Don'tPanic: I think it's absolutely fair to have that expectation.
Mar 7, 2018 at 23:57 comment added Makoto @AndrewMyers: Fundamentally, the concept, notion or even idea of an MCVE is literally the same as asking them to recite their latest work in Ancient Egyptian. This isn't a new thing, honestly; there are plenty of beginners on this site that don't know how to formulate MCVEs or what they are. I think the bigger questions I'm posing are, "do we really support this??" and "how do we let them down gently?"
Mar 7, 2018 at 23:55 comment added Don't Panic "Stack Overflow is a question and answer site for professional and enthusiast programmers." Couldn't we expect that either of those things would at least have some idea of what debugging is?
Mar 7, 2018 at 23:55 comment added Andrew Myers If the question is closed for need of an MCVE, that gives a helpful link (may or may not be followed or understood). The idea is that the we let the question die and then the user comes back when they figure out how to ask it. Maybe it would be useful to keep around a Community Wiki for each language giving general steps? (Or maybe people could keep personal lists of useful off-site articles.) Then maybe Users B, C, or D could link there and let the user figure it out.
Mar 7, 2018 at 23:54 comment added Makoto I suppose this does reflect how far the lofty goal of Stack Overflow has come if we have to ask this question...
Mar 7, 2018 at 23:45 history asked Makoto CC BY-SA 3.0