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May 23, 2017 at 12:38 history edited CommunityBot
replaced http://stackoverflow.com/ with https://stackoverflow.com/
Apr 19, 2017 at 6:38 comment added Jeffrey Bosboom Reading that quote makes me wonder why you built all this tooling for SO Docs instead of just using, or modifying, a wiki, and focusing on getting it populated with useful information.
Apr 19, 2017 at 3:51 comment added Jon Ericson StaffMod No, I think I just disagree with you. (20 years before SO was in beta, websites hadn't been invented yet. But let's pretend you meant 5 or something.) Honestly, I thought the whole project would fail because it lacked proper threading. Seriously.
Apr 19, 2017 at 3:40 comment added Nicol Bolas @JonEricson: You're misunderstanding my point. If you say "documentation site" and show someone Docs.SO, they wouldn't agree that it's a documentation site. If you went back in time 20 years and said "Q&A site" and then showed them SO, even though they've never seen anything like it before, they would agree with you when you called it a "question and answer site". That's the difference: Q&A.SO fulfills the expectation of the term it's attached to. Docs.SO does not.
Apr 19, 2017 at 3:16 comment added Jon Ericson StaffMod @NicolBolas: By removing a bunch of stuff that turned out not to matter (threading, for instance), adding a bunch of obvious-in-retrospect features (like tagging), and introducing clearly insane ideas that destroy the fabric of the endeavour (reputation, mostly) but somehow works out ok in the end. In contrast, Usenet, forums, Experts Exchange and the rest were dinosaurs. In the end, the killer feature was something that old types of Q&A could never provide: searchability. My biggest concern with Docs (by a country mile) is that it's not very discoverable.
Apr 19, 2017 at 3:01 comment added Nicol Bolas @JonEricson: "I think it's fair to say Stack Overflow changed the definition of Q&A." How, exactly? What we call "questions" are still recognizable as questions to people not used to the SO platform. The same goes for "answers". If you tell people SO is a Q&A site, and then you show them SO, they get how it works quickly (I know I did). SO didn't redefine anything; it merely presented the concept more effectively. By contrast, a bunch of examples is not merely presenting the concept of "documentation" more effectively; it's presenting something people don't think of as documentation.
Apr 19, 2017 at 2:41 comment added Jon Ericson StaffMod @NicolBolas: I think it's fair to say Stack Overflow changed the definition of Q&A. Stack Overflow was radically different than all the ways programmers got their questions answered in the past. (And the credit goes in part to Jeff, Joel, and the early developers and in part to the community of developers who made the crazy system work.) I think documentation is due for a revolution. If we don't change the definition, I'd be willing to bet someone else will.
Apr 19, 2017 at 2:35 comment added Jon Ericson StaffMod @NicolBolas: Yeah, score-order sorting on examples is strange. I've never been comfortable with it and the "pin one example" solution is only somewhat workable. (And that only when there's an obvious example to go first.) On the flip side, we do have a section (at the bottom) for optional parameters. We added the introduction section a few months ago and we could certainly add more sections if needed. And there's room for people to organize topics in a way that voting on examples could be reasonable. But my money is that we'll have a different sort system by the time we leave beta.
Apr 19, 2017 at 2:22 comment added Nicol Bolas "Stack Overflow Documentation isn't exactly what people think of when they talk about "documentation"." Then why are you using words that you know will be misinterpreted? If Docs.SO will not provide something recognizable as "documentation", why do you use that word? You are not going to change the definition of "documentation". Name things based on how people will understand them, not based on what you want people to think of them as.
Apr 19, 2017 at 2:17 comment added Nicol Bolas "That way, there'd be space for more specialized examples:" A question arises: what does it mean for an example "Demonstrating the optional parameters" to be voted higher than one "Registering several shutdown functions"? Are optional parameters really more important that multiple shutdown functions? Or is it merely what people voted on? Competition among examples doesn't make sense within this vision, because each example is showing off an independent part of the whole. In Q&A, a single answer can be complete. This is not true of this Examples.SO vision.
Apr 18, 2017 at 23:31 comment added Mark Amery (The problem you currently face, of course, is that most currently existing topics, including the most "popular" ones according to the "popular" tab, are massively too broad even under this vision, and without communicating the vision clearly there's little chance that this will change.)
Apr 18, 2017 at 23:27 comment added Mark Amery Fleshing out this idea a little: your vision seems to be to have examples that are roughly the same in scope as answers, but topics that are like slightly "Too Broad" questions. A topic wants to be "what would I use the frobnicate feature for?" when there are like 6 or 7 major use cases for the frobnicate feature, or "what does this function do?" when the function is (like register_shutdown_function) one whose full functionality can be expressed by half a dozen examples. Too much ground for a single answer to cover but little enough that 6 can do it.
Apr 18, 2017 at 23:16 comment added Mark Amery Interesting. I partly take the point. On the one hand, the register_shutdown_function question is not a "how" question in any sense that I understand, (and nor are most of the individual examples that you propose most naturally understood as the answers to "how" questions), but I actually do agree that the Documentation platform could be effective at documenting register_shutdown_function's behaviour if register_shutdown_function got an entire topic. That seems to imply a drastic narrowing in the community's current conception of a 'topic' is needed, though.
Apr 18, 2017 at 23:12 comment added Jon Ericson StaffMod @MarkAmery: Or, since it just came up on meta, maybe ask how to use Ruby to create a storage profile in Azure VM. My point is the community is (understandably) hostile to questions that look like documentation requests. Stack Overflow Q&A is pretty great for examples iff there's someone willing and able to ask the right question.
Apr 18, 2017 at 22:59 comment added Jon Ericson StaffMod @MarkAmery: Might I ask you to ask a question along the lines of What does register_shutdown_function do? It lasted less than a day before closure in 2012. How long do you think it would last in 2017?
Apr 18, 2017 at 22:56 comment added Mark Amery 'we intend Stack Overflow Documentation (SOD?) to focus on Examples that answer "how" questions' - there are multiple problems I want to point out with this approach, and I've pointed some out before, but mostly I just want to shout BUT YOU ALREADY BUILT AN ENTIRE PLATFORM THAT SOLVES THIS PROBLEM AND SOLVES IT REALLY WELL! Why are you trying to build a new product that directly competes with your core offering's single greatest strength, and what makes you think that you'll manage to do it better?
Apr 18, 2017 at 22:18 history answered Jon EricsonStaffMod CC BY-SA 3.0