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Jun 15, 2016 at 15:49 comment added Cody Gray Mod The "evidence" for "very few sites" is look around on the Internet. Go to any list of the major businesses with an Internet presence, the largest sites on the web, and count how many of them underline their hyperlinks. The majority of them don't. Come on, I don't need to cite an academic paper in order to make this argument. I've offered the only defense I care to offer. I presented it in the form of a logical argument, posted as an answer to a question. Which is how you're supposed to do it here. If you don't like it, downvote and move on. This is not a simple matter of "fact".
Jun 15, 2016 at 15:47 comment added Cody Gray Mod @Chris I feel like you are being intentionally dense. First off, you know how this works. We don't have discussions in the comments, we post answers that make arguments. You haven't posted an answer, you've just attacked me in the comments. So you are Doing It Wrong™. Second, you keep harping on the fact that I haven't given you sufficient data. That's back to the "point" I claimed you were missing. That isn't my intention. Ain't never gonna be. You are construing the debate for something it is absolutely not. I provided justification in my answer, a statement of a position defended logically.
Jun 15, 2016 at 15:43 comment added Chris Baker I mean, just that last comment: "Very few sites"... again, data? Evidence? "default style is a historical relic" -- w3.org/TR/html5/rendering.html -- no one is trying to pick on you. Again, if you're going to advocate for departing from convention, be prepared to offer a vigorous defense. Studies, analysis of trends, industry papers, standards body recommendations, that is why the convention exists. Standards & conventions in comp. science aren't for the heck of it, or because we're too apathetic to do it differently. We act with intention and by consensus, for good reasons.
Jun 15, 2016 at 15:35 comment added Chris Baker "This is a discussion site. " -- which is why I have offered discussion on the subject. I am not missing your point, I disagree with your point. The argument for using underlined links, a long-established convention (even if you call it "relic") has a good deal of weight behind it. The OP is a consultant in the accessibility field, and his position is supported by extensive data, standards, and yeah, convention. Strong disagreement is not lambasting. If you're going to advocate going against a well-established position, the demand for justification is high.
Jun 15, 2016 at 4:52 comment added Cody Gray Mod a browser's default style sheet is a historical relic, and nothing else. It certainly doesn't suggest "best practice" or good design. I didn't respond to your comment because I am rather tired of this debate, the comment section is a bad place to even have a debate, and I've already made the arguments I wish to make in the answer itself. No one said that Stack Overflow is supposed to be doing anything "cutting edge". I've outlined what I think is the purpose of the site quite clearly in my answer, and that is providing expert information. Readability then is paramount. Not linkage.
Jun 15, 2016 at 4:50 comment added Cody Gray Mod I was not the one that tried to start using studies. That was never my intention. This is a discussion site. People offer opinions and make arguments. The original poster is the one who started lambasting me immediately for not providing enough "sources" to back up my claims. I edited one in, just for the sheer hell of it. Probably a mistake, it caused everyone, especially you Chris, to miss the point. I do not accept what you claim to be "conventional". It is nowhere the "convention", as I've addressed in my answer. Very few web sites follow that "convention". The fact that it remains in
Jun 14, 2016 at 19:18 comment added Chris Baker It says that it is, to the author's knowledge, the only such study to have been conducted. As is proper with a study, they also acknowledge that more research is needed. It does not, to me, seem to be a compelling reason to break from the widely-established conventions which I guess you now accept as conventional. SO isn't trying to discover cutting-edge readability techniques, it's trying to provide help to developers. As for it "turning into" a symposium, the sarcasm is not helpful and misplaced. You're making bald assertions and misusing studies to back them, the only reason science came up
Jun 14, 2016 at 16:06 comment added Cody Gray Mod Hey, look—another paper that I can cite that is freely available: vsis-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/getDoc.php/publications/119/… (since apparently this has turned from a Meta discussion into a scientific symposium when I wasn't looking).
Jun 14, 2016 at 14:33 comment added Chris Baker Links to documentation, links to other questions, yeah, we click links here. As far as it not ever being the convention, save <html><body><a href="http://google.com">Google</a></body></html> and let me know what you see. The answer has been the same since Viola browser in 1993, argument to the contrary is fruitless. The study you cite does not implicate underlined links, nor does it draw the conclusion you use it to draw here. You've made a number of assertions rife with hyperbole like "typographical disaster" that are either not borne out by science or boil down to aesthetic preferences.
Jun 14, 2016 at 6:11 comment added Cody Gray Mod @Chris I made several arguments for why underlining links is not a convention (it is certainly not anymore, if it ever was, for no one follows it), and why it is a bad practice that should be stopped even if it were conventional. Very little of my arguments relate to "aesthetic" concerns, they relate to very real usability problems. In particular, that of underlining body text making it difficult to read. This is not a "superficial or design reason." Text is, on Stack Overflow, absolutely the most important thing to parse. It is why we are all here. I don't come here to click links.
Jun 13, 2016 at 20:54 comment added Chris Baker Convention overrides aesthetic concerns -- whether it is typographically appealing or not, the convention on the internet is to underline links. Breaking conventions for superficial or design reasons is like a UX 101 no-no. I expect to spot links quickly on the internet, and I expect them to break up the flow by being noticeable. I do not expect them to hide in the text. The idea that underlines are disruptive to parsing text is built on the premise that the text is the most important thing to parse, but online, especially in the technical realm, links lead to docs, they're as important.
Jun 13, 2016 at 20:54 comment added aardrian @MacroMan Correct. Underlines are not the only option. I made a request to specifically add underlines because it is, IMO/IME, the quickest action as it entails removing two style declarations and mitigates the broken contrast. It also doesn't break the site nor conflict with other styles that I could identify. I am open to other suggestions, but by offering underlines I was trying to bypass a larger discussion/debate of what to do. Except that didn't quite work.
Jun 13, 2016 at 20:45 comment added SierraOscar @aardrian perhaps I'm misunderstanding your question then - my 'bone to pick' was that it seemed you were pushing for the underline because it was implied somewhere that this is the correct action to take. My argument was that taking that specific action would be, for the most part, redundant on SO. If your argument is merely making links a bit more visible for those that are visually impaired then sure - but that's not what your question suggests; or perhaps I'm just not reading it properly.
Jun 13, 2016 at 20:37 comment added aardrian @MacroMan I participate in SO to answer questions primarily on accessibility, but also on other tech. Based on the rep points and nature of the questions I strongly disagree that all SO users are very familiar with how web pages, and SO in particular, work. Regardless, familiarity does not reduce a user's visual impairment. While it need not be an underline, something else must accompany the contrast fix (like the dotted bottom borders on this meta forum that appear not to be a problem).
Jun 13, 2016 at 19:36 comment added SierraOscar @aardrian you keep going on about 'backing-up' and 'supporting documentation' but really, unless this documentation is specific to how people use SO I don't see how it's relevant. These styling/accessibility guides are put in place for the wider user base of the web, but generally speaking people who are using SO are developers and are very familiar with how web pages work and what would constitute a link. I think perhaps changing the contrast is absolutely sufficient for those visually impaired without having to underline.
Jun 13, 2016 at 15:17 comment added aardrian As for many of the examples in your answer, they are provably wrong (use the color contrast checker I use in my question). As I stated with the Google example. I want to make sure I assert that as leaving factually incorrect points stand just enables more bad information to proliferate unchallenged. I also want to address how you feel SO is supposed to work versus how it actually works, but space constraints.
Jun 13, 2016 at 15:12 comment added aardrian @CodyGray you are correct, none of the links I offered explicitly state underlines as a requirement, though they do say good contrast and an additional cue besides color alone. Underlines are the default example. As those are a browser default and well-understood (happy to offer links but comment area terrible for that), I proposed underlines in my question.
Jun 13, 2016 at 14:46 comment added Cody Gray Mod "confirmation bias"? No, that's how science is done. You come up with an idea, and then you test it.
Jun 13, 2016 at 14:45 comment added Cody Gray Mod None of the links in your question say that links need to be underlined. All of them talk about increasing contrast. Aside from that, I did not intend for this answer to be a compendium of links. Nor did I want to get into a debate of slinging about studies. I fail to see how that is productive. I did try to look up a couple of them, and then immediately hit pay walls. After a few moments of cursing that ridiculously broken system, I decided to include only the single paper I found that was not behind a paywall, and only then because it is illegally hosted on someone's blog.
Jun 13, 2016 at 14:44 comment added aardrian @CodyGray The link you added after my comment points to a PDF (that also fails embedded link color contrast) with this bit of confirmation bias right in the abstract: "Consistent with our predictions, the increased demands of decisionmaking and visual processing in hypertext impaired reading performance." I'll read further, but it is off to an inauspicious start.
Jun 13, 2016 at 14:41 comment added aardrian @kevinsky None. They are too low contrast and rely on color alone.
Jun 13, 2016 at 14:40 comment added kevinskio so in what way does stack overflow meet WCAG requirements for hyperlinks? I didn't think this was optional.
Jun 13, 2016 at 14:38 history edited Cody GrayMod CC BY-SA 3.0
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Jun 13, 2016 at 14:37 comment added aardrian You make a lot of assertions but offer little back-up / supporting documentation (unlike the question). For example, you say answers are not harmed by readers missing links, but I have a tangible case where that is false. You say Google does not underline links, but Google's links fail accessibility checks (this is easily testable). And so on. Whether you agree something is a potential accessibility problem is moot, as that is a binary fact.
Jun 13, 2016 at 14:31 history answered Cody GrayMod CC BY-SA 3.0