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Jan 18, 2021 at 12:05 history edited CommunityBot
replaced http://chat.stackoverflow.com with https://chat.stackoverflow.com
Oct 4, 2020 at 11:01 comment added Rob Grant The C++ Lounge has been getting away with completely unacceptable and unprofessional behavior for years - I don't think you know what professional means. No one is a professional Lounge member.
Dec 12, 2015 at 0:37 comment added Robert Harvey Mod @Magisch: Perhaps they were only "obviously" offensive to you. A few F words are not worth flagging; my guiding principle is "is some person or group likely to feel attacked?"
Dec 11, 2015 at 13:21 comment added Magisch @Shog9 Its funny you should say that. I combed a little through some history in the chat room and flagged some obviously offensive comments and not only did the regulars there take joy in denying the flags, a moderator asked me to stop. I conclude in this that Stack Overflow does not wish for members to participate in chatroom moderation.
Dec 4, 2015 at 20:17 comment added Shog9 Mod Nope, @Magisch. Unless the alternative is forcing folks to stay silent when they see a problem, angrily defending bad behavior as acceptable "because that's how we've always done it", and refusing to consider that there are people with just as much a right to be here as yourself who might find such language off-putting... That's a false dichotomy and a horribly polarizing viewpoint... But if that's the only alternative you can imagine then please pick the side that lets you clean up trash over the side that forces you to wallow in it.
Dec 4, 2015 at 9:47 comment added Magisch @Shog9 Are you inviting people to comb room transcripts and mass-flag offensive chatroom comments with your comment there?
Dec 2, 2015 at 20:59 comment added Kevin B I originally read the OP as being a request for a moderator's privileges to be taken away, or for a process for such action to exist, which would in a way be a feature request, no? It didn't seem to be asking for a discussion of whether or not the actions were justified, it explicitly stated that the actions were wrong and should be punished. The downvotes it received I think are a clear indicator that there are more people who disagree with the idea that the actions were wrong. So, it's a bit unclear what the original intent of this question was.
Dec 2, 2015 at 17:36 comment added ivarni @BartekBanachewicz The post also literally says "Here's a message that very clearly demonstrates this incompetence" but glad to hear you're "done here".
Dec 2, 2015 at 16:59 comment added Patrice @BartekBanachewicz lol.... and again we go with the insulting and condescending tone. THIS is the problem man, nothing else. Look, the last paragraph of the OP is pretty clear as to what he(or the community that wrote it) thinks. If you want to be pedantic on the actual words being used, you're as bad as people who take your rapeseed comment to heart. In the context of this full post, the last paragraph saying "Moderator status is a privilege which should be able to be revoked by the same body of people that had granted it: the community" sounds pretty much like a call for a reversal, yes.
Dec 2, 2015 at 16:55 comment added Bartek Banachewicz @Patrice the post literally says is a strong indication that the person might not be perfectly fit for the role. If you still see that as "hurr kick out madara durr", then I'm done here.
Dec 2, 2015 at 16:54 comment added Patrice @BartekBanachewicz you aren't, but the OP here is, and this is a "community post" according to him... so.... Ok, and why does it make it okay to bitch in the chatroom? Why fan the flames? Most of the regulars seem to KNOW how Stack works.... why act against how it actually works and expect good results?
Dec 2, 2015 at 16:54 comment added Bartek Banachewicz @Patrice I'm not asking for the vote to be reversed, I'm asking about consideration of what's happening here. We "bitched" in the chatroom because that's where the issue started. We brought it here because we couldn't resolve that with mods present.
Dec 2, 2015 at 16:53 comment added Patrice sparked the whole debate. It's the amount of vitriol I see here, and how it was thrown in the chatroom, that I find idiotic and pointless. All in all, it's (maybe, I don't even care about it) a bad moderation move, yes. Does that justify all this pointless noise? no. Not at all. This is my only point here. That you come back trying to say what Madara did wasn't okay only proves you don't read what I posted, or take things from MY PoV.
Dec 2, 2015 at 16:50 comment added Bartek Banachewicz I've already said that we've been moderated by both the room owners and other moderators and it was fine, so I've no idea why you're trying to generalize our reaction to this case into "they react to moderation badly". No, we react badly to bad moderation and that's what happened here. This is what the whole thread is about but apparently you're ignoring our PoV completely. I have no idea how saying "this mod reacted badly and should perhaps be reconsidered because his behaviour shows rather surprising patterns" is "considering the rest of SO community" in whatever way.
Dec 2, 2015 at 16:40 comment added Patrice @nick good question. I have no clue about it. Maybe so long without moderation made it a habit, so now moderation ALWAYS looks weird, no matter what? To me though, calling out that THEY want Madara out of diamond mod because THEY don't want him anymore shows how they consider the rest of the Stack community :S
Dec 2, 2015 at 16:38 comment added nick @Patrice Fair enough, and well said. I am not sure why some of the Loungers react so strongly to moderation.
Dec 2, 2015 at 16:36 comment added user3956566 @nick thanks for that. Your remark is tempered in such a heated discussion. You are probably right. It's unfortunate that some of the most offensive material possible (there is worse, but not much) was made into a laughing matter and then there's this outcry of injustice. I know people who have been banned from chat for longer for less.
Dec 2, 2015 at 16:30 comment added Patrice If a sub-group is so AGAINST being moderated, then I question why they are on a moderated site. That's pretty much my only take of this right now. No matter WHAT the actual moderation act is. When something gets moderated, users rant, throw up tantrums, start witch hunts, get ever MORE insulting... this isn't constructive in ANY way. Has nothing to do with the comment (which I don't find that terrible. In poor taste for a public site? Maybe... but I truly don't give a flying F about it), just with the Lounge's reaction to it.
Dec 2, 2015 at 16:28 comment added Patrice @nick I'm not saying it's currently terrible, I'm just saying that someone stepping up and going "well we can moderate the lounge", when the last time someone tried moderation... THIS happened, might be misguided. I honestly read the transcripts, and I randomly read left and right in the chat history of the lounge. I think I'd fit, you guys have a very dry, cynical humor that seems REALLY similar to mine. I'm not debating THAT part of it. I'm debating the reaction to moderation, and how hard this simple moderating act seems to have kicked up dust.
Dec 2, 2015 at 16:16 comment added nick Patrice, I'd consider myself a regular in the Lounge. I voted for Madara and Ed and I would gladly vote for them again. I would urge you to join us in the Lounge for a day (you too @MrsEd ) when this situation cools down. I think you'll find we are not as terrible as you've been made to believe.
Dec 2, 2015 at 15:47 comment added Martin James Is there any outsiders' view of the Lounge C++ chat room? Are there any 'Why do some people hate Stack Overflow Lounge++ chat?' sites?
Dec 2, 2015 at 15:30 comment added Patrice @Jalf Moderate it? Like they did just now? how many people jumped up and fought against it? Not saying moderation isn't the way to go, but when a room such as the lounge has been allowed to fester the way it festered for so long, there's not much to do. If you try to revert the behavior, you get a small sub-community that posts stuff like "we should revert the voting of Madara as mod"... How many users in the lounge? Vs how many votes for Madara? This just shows how the chat room acts, and believes they are more important to the community than the community itself.
Dec 2, 2015 at 15:23 comment added user3956566 I haven't, yet, read all the comments, but this is music to my ears. Just because it's been going on for years, doesn't mean it should continue (as some people seem to equate longevity of behaviour with acceptability of such). There's nothing to stop people from forming a social chat somewhere else off site. Anything that raises the bar of standards for the site gets a vote from me. This doesn't mean we can't joke and have fun.. but seriously, out of the gutter. A show of such good community support against this behaviour is a big plus in restoring any outsiders view of us (the SO community).
Dec 2, 2015 at 13:40 comment added user406009 @jalf What makes you say that there is an atmosphere of "casual racism and misogyny"? I have personally see very little of either in the room. Do you have practical examples?
Dec 2, 2015 at 13:32 comment added Stack Overflow is garbage A year ago I'd have argued that the room should just be left alone to continue as it is, but really... letting the place steep in the atmosphere of casual racism and misogyny it's bred doesn't seem like a viable long-term solution. And heck, Reddit has shown how ineffective the "containment" strategy is. You can't have one place where bad behavior is allowed and hope for it to be contained there.
Dec 2, 2015 at 13:31 comment added Stack Overflow is garbage As a former member of the room, something I'd much prefer over just deleting the room: moderate it. It's part of SO's community. Own it. Take responsibility for it. You can close it, and turn away some extremely knowledgeable and helpful users which would honestly be a loss to SO, or you can take responsibility for making the room less toxic. Not by banning off-topic "lounge" talk in general, but by making it happen in a respectful manner. There's a lot of good about the Lounge, and I hope it can continue, for the sake of SO and the Lounge community. But it could stand to lose the toxicity
Dec 2, 2015 at 12:19 comment added R. Martinho Fernandes @Magisch what does deleting the room accomplish? It essentially boils down to this: am I persona non grata here? I would like to be told so, so I can go my way. Otherwise, I will be around, chatting. The room doesn't affect that. Getting rid of it is just a propagandistic measure.
Dec 2, 2015 at 12:02 comment added Cerbrus @R.MartinhoFernandes: That's 22402 messages. Guess what room has 27595 "thanks" messages? And not nearly as many "Offensive" flags. ;-)
Dec 2, 2015 at 11:33 comment added Magisch @R.MartinhoFernandes I don't see any justification in that for the vitriol that even 2 days of chatlogs show. Quite contrary. I don't think the moderators would be overreacting by deleting the chatroom and sending some of the worst offenders on a year of chat hiatus.
Dec 2, 2015 at 10:43 comment added R. Martinho Fernandes @Magisch if we're gonna get that ridiculous compare what you said with "I am an older member of the community, and I have read through years of transcripts, and you should really not just close that room down". See also chat.stackoverflow.com/search?q=thanks&user=&room=10.
Dec 2, 2015 at 10:18 comment added Benjamin Gruenbaum Well - chat flags are terrible a big part of why I campaigned for @Madara is so there can be more people with power to moderate in chat because the flags are broken.
Dec 2, 2015 at 8:26 comment added Magisch Speaking as a newer member of the community, after reading through about 2 days of transcripts, you should really just close that room down.
Dec 2, 2015 at 5:45 comment added Nathan Tuggy Brad, perhaps you should pull the petition to shut down Lounge<C++> out into its own question so we can see the community response slightly more clearly. This needs all the visibility we can get on it.
Dec 2, 2015 at 4:59 comment added nick @TinyGiant That hurts.
Dec 2, 2015 at 4:08 comment added Sam Oh snap, I'm all outta popcorn. Keep up the constructive discussions while I get some more...
Dec 2, 2015 at 3:15 comment added Shoe @Servy What response to that initial comment? The response you see in the transcript was to the removal of that comment from a mod. Why was that message removed? What's inappropriate about it?
Dec 2, 2015 at 3:05 comment added Servy @Jefery I'm mostly concerned with the community's response than to the initial comment. That is where I see the most inappropriate and worrisome behavior. Had the response been constructive arguments for why you feel that such content is appropriate, nobody would ever have been suspended, the room would never have been locked, and everyone would already have forgotten about the whole thing by now.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:52 comment added Bartek Banachewicz @Jefery And yet, which is worth noting, given his outstanding reputation both with regard to programming and the community interactions, he chose "filth" to describe some of the moderators involved.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:45 comment added Shoe You were not even smart about it. You managed to pick Jerry out. I mean what the actual fuck? He probably is one of the most respectable people you'll even find on SO. Years of contributions, thousands points of reputations always very calm and respectful.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:45 comment added Bartek Banachewicz @Makoto and why do you think having a room with a particular number corresponds to that drama? Or will you force the community to split into multiple rooms? Or will you ban everyone from chat outright? Because if it's the latter, you'd need proper case like this one set against each and every one.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:43 comment added Shoe @Servy That comment was deleted by one of the mods. His reaction to that derives from that action. Can you explain that action? What is there to "tone it down" in that message? What's out of line?
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:42 comment added Makoto @BartekBanachewicz: Peace and quiet, for one thing. No more chat melodrama on Meta that seems to have been well covered by mods.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:42 comment added Bartek Banachewicz @Makoto and what exactly do you think will be achieved by closing that room? If a new C++ room appears, the situation might not change at all. If it doesn't, the outside flaggers will bubble out in other rooms.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:39 comment added Servy @Jefery He wasn't suspended for that one comment alone. That comment just caused mods to join the room and tell people to tone it down. The response to being told that such discussions aren't appropriate was what resulted in the suspensions and room freeze.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:36 comment added Shoe @Servy Can you please explain what is offensive about the very original message "Most women want at least something of a date before they fuck. The ones who don't, you (or certainly I, anyway) probably want to avoid."? And please, for the love of God and all that is holy, don't go down the "Well, if you can't see it, then that's the problem" path.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:35 comment added Servy @ElimGarak I think it's been shown very clearly that this is in no way just blind reaction to isolated words devoid of context. Taken in context, all of the quoted comments that have been given as examples really are highly offensive, and intentionally so. This isn't the case of someone just f*cking including some d*mn swearwords in inoffensive statements.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:35 comment added user4639281 I just spent about 35 minutes reading the transcript for the C++ room and have to say that it looks just as bad as some of the worst reddit threads I've seen. #disgusted
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:33 comment added sehe @Servy you cannot judge it. I'm still here waiting for the to pick up the phone... So much for due diligence
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:30 comment added Elim Garak If you're going to nuke the Lounge, you will have to nuke every other "professional" chat room on SO. So, just shut down chat. Because the "trigger words" for moderators can be easily found in every room. It just so happens that the Lounge is one of the biggest rooms, so (go figure) bad jokes happens more often.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:30 comment added Servy @CatPlusPlus How has this situation proven that we need more transparency? There's been plenty of transparency by the mods here to show that there was more than enough inappropriate behavior to warrant all of the actions that they've taken, and they've been very open about exactly what they've done and why. Again, if you want to participate in chat rooms that never delete anything, ever, there's a few million of them out there for you to use. The SE chat isn't The Wild West. Inappropriate content will be removed. If that isn't what you want, then why are you here?
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:26 comment added Cat Plus Plus @Makoto Haven't you heard tone arguments kinda fell out of favour a long time ago.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:26 comment added Makoto @CatPlusPlus: I'll admit: the way you're arguing about this doesn't do your side any favors. I've looked at the evidence and I'm inclined to agree with much of what has transpired on the part of the mods.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:24 comment added Cat Plus Plus Blindly trusting mods is the very problem we're trying to highlight here, so good job?
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:24 comment added Makoto ...Right. To answer the question posed in this answer (ironically enough), enough is enough. I trust the mods' judgment enough in this scenario to do what's best for the site on this one. If this means that this chatroom is nuked from orbit, I'll supply the ICBMs if need be.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:23 comment added Bartek Banachewicz I have to say the whole confusion about flag usage and then both appearances of flags and lack of thereof being used against the Lounge shows a rather peculiar approach to executing the praised site policies. Esp given that we can't backtrack the whole history in all cases because that's a mod-only privilege.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:23 comment added Cat Plus Plus @Servy It can be hidden, whatever, it shouldn't be made inaccessible as it is right now. You can punish people without destroying evidence, yes. Transparency is important, which today's situation kinda critically proves? Also I'm here for the people, which is why I care enough to bother trying to argue in this stupid upvote-ridden format designed to hide unpopular side of the argument. (And there it is, that "professional" word again. I swear that should be autobannable.)
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:20 comment added Servy @CatPlusPlus So you don't think highly inappropriate content should ever be removed, because if it is, you couldn't prove to someone else that the inappropriate content was said? The fact that you apparently don't think that any content should be moderated simply tells me that you shouldn't be on an SE chat in the first place. You're not looking for a professional chat room, you're looking for an entirely casual unmoderated chat room. That's fine, and there's god knows ho many of those on the internet. Why are you trying to hang out on one that doesn't feel that any content is allowable?
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:19 comment added Cat Plus Plus @RobertHarvey Strawman? We're not even arguing for god's sake. Nice derail tactic. This is facts: rooms try to settle things in rooms first because the flags lack context or knowledge of the situation and are largely false positives. Hell, you people told us to try to make people flag less, because it annoys both mods and every single 10k user on the chat. This is what the supposed "circumvention" is about. So yeah strawman as hell.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:16 comment added Cat Plus Plus @Servy: I don't. Message deletions are net negative because transparency, which is far more important than the misguided political correctness, "cleanness", protecting whoever from words, or whatever the today's excuse is.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:15 comment added Robert Harvey Mod EVERY ROOM intentionally "circumvents the system" because "the system" is completely goddamn ANNOYING and ineffective... -- Nice straw man, there.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:15 comment added Bartek Banachewicz @Brad it's not to protect the members of the chatroom - it's to protect every user above 10k rep from endless spam of flags, which other rooms have been doing as well for quite some time already.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:15 comment added sehe @BradLarson Can we have a private chat? (Or public for that matter)
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:15 comment added Journeyman Geek do: behave don't: misbehave so things need to be flagged. Damned: Misbehave, and cover it up. Seems simple to me,.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:13 comment added orlp @BradLarson That was in direct response to mods complaining about the number of flags. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:13 comment added sehe @BradLarson looking. Hold on
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:13 comment added sehe @BradLarson I resent that. THIS agreement has been made with Jon Clement on his PARTICULAR, REPEATED request. Ask Mysticial. Scan the transcript for "UNDERSTANDING". Wow.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:12 comment added Brad Larson Mod @sehe - That was this comment: chat.stackoverflow.com/transcript/message/27182384#27182384 right above yours about not flagging things.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:12 comment added Bartek Banachewicz @Servy point being in this particular case the vast majority of people in the chatroom who actually were able to read and comprehend the context of the message didn't deem it inappropriate. Stating that aloud isn't a riot you're trying to paint it as; it's a massive disagreement which was swept under the rug of aforementioned "trolling" and "picking fights".
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:12 comment added Cat Plus Plus You know that EVERY ROOM intentionally "circumvents the system" because "the system" is completely goddamn ANNOYING and ineffective? Which was reported on meta and subsequently ignored multiple times even?
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:11 comment added sehe This "liking rape" allegation - is it more than an urban myth? If that thing is literally true, and not a lone act of provocation or blown way out of proportion, then I'll personally vouch for deletion of the room. (Hint, I'm not buying it yet)
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:10 comment added Brad Larson Mod @BartekBanachewicz - So here's the thing about that awful comment I posted above. It was only found when someone read the transcript, because apparently members of the room were instructed not to flag it: chat.stackoverflow.com/messages/27182392/history . That's members of the room intentionally circumventing the system to protect themselves, and I find that completely unacceptable.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:10 comment added Servy @CatPlusPlus I would sincerely hope that a comment such as that would have been deleted, so it wouldn't be in a transcript to link to.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:10 comment added Shog9 Mod You volunteering, @Elim? Let's clean house...
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:10 comment added Cat Plus Plus Transparency 104: post some claims about something, but don't post any evidence, because Mods Are Infallible.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:09 comment added Elim Garak Oh, really? Here's "rape" in the PHP room.... So tell me, where do you draw the line? We could scour the transcript of every room for stuff that falls through the cracks of flagging.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:09 comment added Shoe The rape message was from like 2 days ago from some user I think I never saw around.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:09 comment added Servy @BartekBanachewicz When, in response to said flagged content being moderated, the rest of the room starts objecting to the moderation of the content, continues posting more inappropriate content, and starts picking fights with the moderators to claim that they don't have the right to moderate the room, I'd say yes, holding the room accountable for that would be appropriate. Had one person said one bad thing, the content been flagged, removed, and everyone else been glad to be rid of the inappropriate content, that would be different.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:07 comment added user1131435 @Bartek, No, it doesn't. This has happened before on other sites. When there's a deeper problem with the culture of a chatroom, the only thing flags can do is handle the symptoms. Further action is needed to handle the cause.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:06 comment added Script47 There are limits to what one should/can say. People always seem to forget that.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:06 comment added Bartek Banachewicz @Brad if a message gets flagged in a room, and you think the message is inappropriate, doesn't that mean the system is working as intended? I could stop by any other room and post absolutely anything - would you consider that to be that room's fault?
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:04 comment added Clive Ok I was on the fence until the rape thing. Shut it down. Jeez.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:04 comment added Cat Plus Plus All the times, I'm fairly sure people using the word "professionalism" are not worth listening to.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:03 comment added Servy @BartekBanachewicz I see over a dozen posts by Madara preceding the quote in the OP that are entirely reasonable attempts to explain and dissolve the situation. This was met with hostility and repeated inappropriate behavior by others, challenging their very right to enforce the moderation policies that they are required to uphold. That this eventually culminated, after repeated attempts to dissolve the situation, in the statement that he would not in fact back down to threats by others and held firm in his position that he'd enforce the site's rules is exactly what I'd expect of a mod.
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:02 comment added Brad Larson Mod @ElimGarak - Other chatrooms don't get flagged for conversations about women "liking rape" (which horrified multiple moderators from other sites when they saw it earlier today). This doesn't happen in other chatrooms, only the Lounge. Why is that?
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:00 comment added user1131435 Sometimes, I'm not sure some Loungers have a good idea of what "professionalism" actually means...
Dec 2, 2015 at 2:00 comment added Cat Plus Plus The "breaking news" message was after the user who said was already suspended once for no reason, by the way.
Dec 2, 2015 at 1:58 comment added Cat Plus Plus But it's easier to derail the entire thing as "omg you're so unconstructive and unprofessional" than to admit that maybe you overreacted in the first place.
Dec 2, 2015 at 1:57 comment added Cat Plus Plus The original message is not offensive and you'd be hard pressed to argue that it's even wrong. It's a life anecdote. And in the second you still hone in on OMG A BAD WORD with regex-like accuracy and completely disregard the entire meaning of the thing you're quoting (which is the exact opposite of trying to call women that). Is it hostile? Yes, it is. That's because mods decided to harass a valuable member of the community for absolutely no reason at all. Oh and don't forget trying to silence opposition by reducing everything into "trolling" and instabanning so you can't even argue. Woopee.
Dec 2, 2015 at 1:57 comment added Bartek Banachewicz One thing that's certainly way misleading here is that Madara didn't try to bridge anything. Has he actually tried to talk to the folk in the Lounge, which promptly tried to illustrate the CONTEXT of the offending message, this could look wholly different. Instead, he chose to ignore that and pronounce his power in a provocative manner.
Dec 2, 2015 at 1:51 history answered Brad LarsonMod CC BY-SA 3.0