Timeline for Declining Numbers of Women in Programming, What Can SO do to Help?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
21 events
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Apr 11, 2019 at 10:20 | comment | added | Dan Rayson | I wholeheartedly agree with you on this. As a white male I often feel the very same things that I've seen the "minorities" complain about, hard to believe, I know. I've been down voted for bad answers, called out for bad questions, even been in the odd argument or ten. The difference is I attribute those feelings/failings to a genuine lacking in my own person. I don't blame others for being more competent, dominant, or better at the job than I am, at least I try not to. I fed up with this victim mentality, and the survey only drives the wedge deeper. | |
Nov 13, 2015 at 2:19 | comment | added | user3956566 | @SlippD.Thompson upon rereading you've made some insightful comments. thank you. | |
Nov 13, 2015 at 0:44 | comment | added | Slipp D. Thompson | @Yvette And I believe “cold” is an acceptable synonym for “the behavior of making others feel isolated or ostracized”. Please don't throw red herrings into this discussion— you're only going hurt what progress could be made here, and make your demographic appear to be illogical/unreasonable. | |
Nov 13, 2015 at 0:40 | comment | added | Slipp D. Thompson | @Yvette I've been speaking more about the whole of the programming community, not just SO. Also, I think it should go without saying that experts in any field start young— usually around age 10. Programmings' no different; the best & the brightest, and a good portion of the community of SO started in their teens or preteens and are now late 20s - 40s. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear enough from the onset of my point with “is a common frustration among teenage boys”. | |
Nov 12, 2015 at 22:45 | comment | added | user3956566 | @SlippD.Thompson I'm no psychologist this is not extending from pre-adult life (though it may) all the things I'm referring to are experiences as adults within a male oriented industry. What is wrong with trying to address this? Because it happens to other people? You're the only person here who has referred to the community as being cold. And how does one guy who eats up so much time harm the community? we learn quickly how to deal with that. | |
Nov 12, 2015 at 19:59 | comment | added | Slipp D. Thompson | @Yvette Also — and again I'm going on intuition here, not formal studies — I believe this could be extrapolated to the assumption that most programmers just don't value warmness and openness to others. The coldness becomes is a safety mechanism to keep out newcomers who would hurt our communities (nearly all of us have experienced that one guy who eats up so much time asking all the questions but still just doesn't get it). | |
Nov 12, 2015 at 19:14 | comment | added | Slipp D. Thompson | @Yvette Yeah, that would seem to make sense. I'm no psychologist but I think that things undergone by humans while pre-adult affect us differently, and more permanently. I think the case here is that the isolation becomes both an implicit “standard” of what is perceived to be a serious programmer, and a rewarding lifestyle— a solitary quiet lifestyle is a productive one. Therefore, a programmer socializing too much and not independent enough is perceived as annoying, inexperienced, and not authentic. The isolation leads to development of strong independence and determinism traits, I guess. | |
Nov 12, 2015 at 10:59 | comment | added | NickJ | @Yvette I really don't think anyone is imposing isolation and ostracization on others, if someone feels that way (women and men alike) that often it's their own perception, and not the act of others. | |
Nov 12, 2015 at 10:33 | comment | added | user3956566 | @SlippD.Thompson Well wouldn't this initial isolation felt by many programmers make them more understanding and not wish to impose it on others? | |
Nov 12, 2015 at 1:28 | comment | added | Slipp D. Thompson | “Feeling isolated or ostracized is a common frustration among women in technology.” It's interesting that this is the case. From my experience and from what I've perceived of others I've met in the industry, feeling isolated or ostracized is a common frustration among teenage boys in their schools and daily lives, and why they've fallen into the protected world of computers & programming. So in a way, feeling isolated or ostracized within the industry is preaching to the choir— most of us have been there, done that. | |
Nov 11, 2015 at 19:45 | comment | added | devlin carnate | @AnorZaken - yes, I agree with your summary. | |
Nov 11, 2015 at 19:42 | comment | added | devlin carnate | @Yvette - the article you cite regarding confidence in programming skills concludes that it's hard to say what the study means. So the point I make about it being BS is not just my own experience. The study in that article also found CS departments where women outranked men in confidence. And more to my point, there's nothing about SO that inherently makes women feel less confident in their skills. If anything, it's a great platform in which women can gain confidence. | |
Nov 11, 2015 at 19:22 | comment | added | AnorZaken | To elaborate (2 comments should be fine, no?) I think Devlin felt that Yvette's description of "most women" was offensive (needs better wording regardless of factual correctness) in the same way that it can be offensive to say that "most men are sloppy at cleaning and I want to raise awareness about that and have a discussion of how these men can be helped". That really can come of as offensive if you are that guy that always keep things nice and clean and proper. This caused a bit of attitude in the wording, which then Yvette perceived as claims that her facts are lies. Please look past that. | |
Nov 11, 2015 at 19:12 | comment | added | AnorZaken | Summary: Yvette wants to raise awareness of an issue, related to confidence and a state of affairs (the diminishing), approached from a female majority perspective, to spawn discussion of the state and perhaps find improvements. Partly gender neutral (help everyone feeling isolated), partly not because of a strong focus on the state. Devlin basically said: You better make damn sure this doesn't lead to "positive" discrimination because that's just another evil. And she goes on to explain why and what she feels that confidence is. Looking past the strong language both of them are correct imo. | |
Nov 11, 2015 at 19:00 | comment | added | Shog9 | yeah, that was all tied up in Anor's wall of text, @devlin; might as well just post a new response, 'cause that mess is gone. | |
Nov 11, 2015 at 18:46 | comment | added | NickJ | 'The whole notion that women should be treated differently because they are women is somewhat offensive to this woman' totally agree, but I see no hint of that on SO. Also: 'If you feel intimidated when debating a male, that's your issue.': I made that point in my answer, but you said that so much better than I did! | |
Nov 11, 2015 at 15:37 | comment | added | devlin carnate | @Shog9 - you also deleted a comment by Yvette and my response to it ? | |
Nov 11, 2015 at 15:35 | comment | added | Shog9 | Clearing a big pile of comments; if you can't fit your response into one (or even two!) comments, Anor, then you're using the wrong tool for the job; write an answer. Dumping 5 comments on someone's post is crazy. | |
Nov 11, 2015 at 7:54 | comment | added | user3956566 | You have not met my argument with any facts, it is totally based you YOUR EXPERIENCES. I have cited facts from studies and you call it BS. It's like I'm not going to accept the validity of these studies, it doesn't support my internal view of the world. So it's BS. | |
Nov 11, 2015 at 7:51 | comment | added | user3956566 |
And to suggest that we should draw conclusions regarding SO culture being male-biased from stats like SO profile gender scaled against rep is a really big leap I didn't make any conclusions about that stats, I simply asked what are the stats. You've made that jump. This discussion references what precipitated me to post. I have not complained about SO at all, I have clearly given people a walk in someone elses shoes. I try to do the same, in fact I am attempting to do it with you. To try to understand better your response. to be cont
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Nov 11, 2015 at 3:30 | history | answered | devlin carnate | CC BY-SA 3.0 |