Timeline for Clean-up by downvoting? A ridiculous user experience
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
47 events
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Jun 3, 2020 at 15:29 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
Commonmark migration
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Mar 20, 2017 at 10:32 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
replaced http://meta.stackexchange.com/ with https://meta.stackexchange.com/
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Oct 3, 2015 at 14:39 | comment | added | Andrew Russell | @durron597 I hadn't, and I've only had a skim now, but both the question and answer in the linked meta post look solid. | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 21:41 | comment | added | Travis J | @durron597 - Okay, so that was really my point. There are gains if there are contributions. In this case, you could then call that fraudulent. | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 21:35 | comment | added | durron597 | @TravisJ Removal of garbage is a contribution. I'll have to show your comment your garbage man / janitor etc. and tell them that you don't think he's contributing, and he'll remind you of his lack of contribution as the garbage begins to pile up. | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 21:33 | comment | added | durron597 | @gnat The bottom line is that downvoting for roomba is a bad solution to a <s>good</s> real problem. I and others did it because we were trying to address a real problem, but that doesn't mean the act itself was correct, and I agree with everyone else here who is saying that it wasn't. We are currently working on solutions to solve this problem in a different way. | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 20:47 | comment | added | Travis J | @gnat - I thought we already covered this recently. Your premise is flawed, and so is your baseless comment you linked. Tactical downvoting is just downvoting an answer not based on quality but based on the question; it is a strategic undertaking to impose some sort of zealous interpretation of "crap". I will take someone who is answering questions any day over the week over someone who runs around yelling "crap" and complaining about answers without actually contributing. | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 20:42 | comment | added | Travis J | @gnat - The tool may be tactical downvoting, which is absurd in itself, but the act is deceitful, deceptive, crooked, or underhanded (all synonyms of fraud - which was used as an analogy). "One thing I can tell you is that if you start targeting downvotes at experts who are just trying to help, you will start to drive those people away. I've already seen this in a few cases." -Brad Larson♦ (meta.stackoverflow.com/a/255861/1026459) . Tactical downvoting is not encouraged, and it is called out for abuse. Surprise! Being abusive is being deceitful, deceptive, crooked, or underhanded. | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 20:27 | comment | added | gnat | I knew this will pop up (congrats, you got to it sooner than I expected). This is long known as tactical / strategic downvoting and, surprise! nobody calls this fraud. System simply has got technical means to tame it from becoming too abusive (vote lock), and so should it in the case discussed here (this may be trickier to design though) | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 20:14 | comment | added | Shog9 | Oh, you wanna get technical? Then no, it's not impossible, @gnat - in fact, it's not even particularly uncommon for a group to use this exact technique to downvote competing answers, thus ensuring more views and more votes for those they favor without leaving an obvious trail of votes pointing back at themselves. So once again, we're back to intent: are we moderating based on patterns, or... who can tell the best story? | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 20:12 | comment | added | gnat | no matter how you twist it, it's technically impossible to gain from this kind of voting | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 20:01 | comment | added | Travis J | @gnat - Well, it is an abuse of the system and a gamification by way of collusion. That aside, I agree! There is no gain here, they are not contributing anything by doing this. No one gains from these activities. | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 19:59 | comment | added | Shog9 | Right, just so we're clear on this, it's totally ok to abuse the system and screw with other users if you have a good, selfless-sounding explanation for it when you're caught. You wanna know how many voting rings give the "we're just trying to save overlooked answers" explanation, @gnat? Reg'lr saints, those vote-ringers. Everyone has a story... | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 19:33 | comment | added | gnat | it's not fraud, because fraud purpose is to "to secure unfair or unlawful gain". Voters gain nothing. If you want to somehow label what's going on there, try at least something... less inaccurate | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 19:08 | comment | added | bjb568 | Sure there are quality duplicates, but at least in my tags there isn't much origional quality content that I can answer. And almost always when there is, there's the FGITW problem and I can't add much information over the faster answers. | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 19:02 | comment | added | Travis J | @bjb568 - There are quality questions asked every day. It is your problem if you cannot find them. Not everything here is crap, and that is a terrible view to hold of the site. | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 19:01 | comment | added | bjb568 | @Shog If I wanted to get 5k (in any reasonable amount of time), I know I'll have to contribute to the noise problem by answering crappy questions that only help OP. | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 18:59 | comment | added | Travis J | I don't think we are averse to deletion. I also agree with shog about the d̶i̶c̶k̶i̶s̶h̶n̶e̶s̶s̶ unacceptable behavior here. There was p̶e̶r̶s̶o̶n̶a̶l̶l̶y̶ targeted voting and that is the main concern. Colluding to vote, regardless of the aim of the voting, goes against the site's design. While it is important to maintain quality material, creating new quality material is more important than finding low view posts from 5 years ago. We should aim at spending time creating quality content and helping users more than we should be aimed at "attacking" users who have helped others in the past. | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 18:58 | comment | added | Shog9 | Why don't you start by earning the delete privilege before you complain about the lack of votes, @bjb. Then post a feature-request. | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 18:55 | comment | added | bjb568 | The system is obviously optimized for page views, rather than helpfulness, so the S:N ratio is approaching that of a forum as popularity increases. If we want to have higher quality standards than a forum, we must not be averse to deletion like forums are. | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 18:50 | comment | added | bjb568 | I 125+ rep user gangs should get less delete power, but it needs to be a lot easier to delete stuff for both 10kers (severely limited by their tiny vote allocation) and lower rep trusted users (like me with several old review badges and 5k) who can't even flag to recommend deletion. With all the policies made to encourage quantity over quality, there need to at least be ways to filter away the inevitable flood of crap. | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 17:00 | comment | added | Shog9 | So... fraud is ok as long as I don't personally benefit from it? I'll let the bank know I'm check-kiting for charity now then, @gnat. | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 16:19 | comment | added | durron597 | @AndrewRussell Did you also read the chat between myself and Shog in the Tavern? It's much more informative, and led to this proposal | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 8:25 | comment | added | gnat | your analogy with (up)voting rings is nice. Sorta. You only forgot to mention some "minor" differences. Folks voted in question that was reviewed by five 3K users and deemed inappropriate. Voting was not personally targeted. And none of voters benefited personally (rather opposite) | |
Sep 30, 2015 at 3:05 | comment | added | Andrew Russell | The impression that I am getting from the folks behind this - after reading their chat - is that they intend to keep doing it, if at all possible (and simply 'try' to avoid doing it to +6 posts). As such, I fully support a technical solution that nerfs the roomba. Especially given the example I added to the OP, of someone with a +2 post getting weirded out by the same behaviour. -- People should also keep in mind that, to a user of the site, this kind of (pseudo-)moderation comes across as officially endorsed site policy. Most users are not well versed in what goes on in meta, myself included. | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 20:35 | comment | added | Shog9 | So if you check the revision history, you'll see I didn't actually write "unacceptable" @gnat... Not that it probably helps your mood any. Unacceptable works just as well: given the mods currently spend a ridiculous amount of time policing rings of people who upvote posts for fraudulent ends, it's awful hard to argue this should be encouraged. | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 19:29 | comment | added | gnat | unacceptable, yeah sure. You got to be f#cking kidding. Fastest-gun "games" polluting site with garbage are acceptable. Duplicate answers to popular questions are acceptable. Lemming upvotes to hot questions are not just acceptable - encouraged. Voting down answers to off-topic questions that barely managed to scrape handful votes in several years is... not. Yeah that's the way to go... off the top results in web search | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 18:02 | comment | added | Shog9 | Not really true, @durron597. The blanket prohibition on tool-rec questions is relatively new in terms of SO history; a lot of the rules and standards now in place arose organically over the course of years. Folks asked and answered questions in good faith... Then things changed. The 5-yr-old question that motivated this never had a single downvote or close vote before this month. I'm in chat, btw | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 17:39 | comment | added | durron597 | @Shog9 It doesn't take years for it to be closed because people thought it should be open, it took years for it to be closed because on one was looking at it and because close votes age away. Currently it takes two days to vote to delete the question anyway; perhaps you are suggesting that the two day period should be longer? | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 17:37 | comment | added | Shog9 | You're missing my point here, @durron597. There are well-defined paths to take questions from closure to deletion, and from closure to reopening - therefore closure serves its purpose as a sort of limbo. Expecting a question that takes years to be closed to be deleted in days is unrealistic; surely there should be a time for review, else what is the point? 3000 questions require at most 9000 delete votes, and in practice a lot fewer due to autodeletion; delete votes do not age away. | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 17:13 | comment | added | durron597 | Either closed questions should all eventually head down the trash chute or they shouldn't. Either closing is the precursor to deletion, or it isn't. When we try to stem the tide of garbage by preventing people from using off topic tags, we end up using any and all means available to us. The solution isn't to take away that power, the solution is to isolate the actual problem and change the system to address that. Feel free to ping me in SOCVR. | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 17:11 | comment | added | durron597 | @Shog9 In the case of third-party there were over 500 posts. In the case of source or source-code there were close to 2000. We only get so many delete votes per day, but we get a lot more downvotes per day. Plus people who don't have 10k want to help delete garbage. You say yourself that closure is just a precursor to deletion anyway... requests like this one haven't gotten a staff response. | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 16:57 | comment | added | Shog9 | Which brings me back to #1 above, @durron597: this is a horribly awkward way of marking things for deletion, and there's a [delete] link right on the page - if everyone who'd downvoted had voted to delete (and most of them could have done so), it'd still have taken fewer votes and less time than it did... So what motivated the Rube Goldberg method? | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 16:48 | comment | added | durron597 | @Shog9 You could argue that if more stuff were automatically deleted, then this sort of behavior would be far less necessary. In this case, the people involved were looking to help the site, not help themselves or prank others. | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 16:05 | comment | added | Shog9 | I've run a couple ad-hoc tests using variations on the proposed criteria, @durron597 - they've gone pretty well. But the big open question is... Actually, this. How will increasing auto-deletion alter folks' behavior? How should it? | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 16:03 | comment | added | Shog9 | Still do that, @Hans... But the problem with most of these burnination requests isn't the tags themselves, it's the questions in them - if getting rid of the tag means getting rid of all the questions, that's something that should involve public collaboration. | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 16:02 | comment | added | Shog9 | I explicitly avoided calling anyone out, @Mogsdad. The behavior is the problem, not the people - that the system unintentionally encourages this behavior is the problem I propose to address. Note that no one owning these answers can see who downvoted them (much less why) - they can't exactly begin a conversation about "feeding the Roomba" unless someone lets them know that's what was happening. | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 15:48 | history | edited | CRABOLO | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
deleted 8 characters in body
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Sep 29, 2015 at 15:46 | comment | added | Mogsdad | As one of the users (perhaps THE user?) called a "DICK", Shog, I'm chastised - and very willing to change - but also offended. The fact that the OP was able to point at a meta post discussing open community actions supporting clean-up of off-topic tags illustrates a desire to engage and conform with community views. Interesting to note that there was not even one comment on that post (or other similar burnination posts) to discuss "feeding the Roomba". Such conversation would have been most constructive before the name-calling. | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 15:39 | comment | added | CRABOLO | @MadScientist has the best idea. But 1 upvote received on a post to prevent roomba is too strict. Be fine with adding roomba rule that no single post on the the question (including the question) have more than 3 upvotes. Shog's idea of keeping them ineligible for "hefty time" would just hurt helpful moderation taken by this roomba route and probably stop the this particular practice all together. It's a fact that not enough stuff gets deleted quick enough or at all, so increasing time is not way to go. Simple additional roomba rule of "can not have received > 3 upvotes on single post" is good | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 13:44 | comment | added | durron597 | What's the update on this? | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 7:26 | comment | added | Hans Passant | 3. Make tag burnination an SE staff duty like it used to be. | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 5:54 | comment | added | Mad Scientist | Would basing the auto-delete criteria on a lack of upvotes instead of only the score work? So instead of score <= 0 we have something like score <=0 and upvotes <= 1 (or higher). I suspect this wouldn't change anything in the vast majority of cases, but it might prevent people from gaming the system to delete questions with upvoted answers. | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 4:56 | comment | added | Shog9 | Right. So instead of needing to find one other person to vote to delete, someone dug up 5 other people to downvote. Some crazy, crazy unintended consequences here... | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 4:54 | comment | added | BoltClock Mod | "but in this case it would've only required three" And I gather one of the answerers, in this case the OP of said meta question, would have been more than eager to contribute taking into account the policy changes that made this question now off-topic. | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 4:52 | comment | added | BoltClock Mod | How long until people start piling on their downvotes now so they can delete this question later? | |
Sep 29, 2015 at 4:50 | history | answered | Shog9 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |