Timeline for We need [less] no more
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
46 events
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Apr 27, 2018 at 10:14 | history | edited | Bhargav RaoMod |
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May 8, 2015 at 7:28 | answer | added | Harry | timeline score: 9 | |
May 7, 2015 at 23:18 | comment | added | Braiam | @Shog9 I remember finding some questions about it just now (now being about couple of hours). This also. I'm sure you notice that the use of less could be replaced with any pager, but I still think the use of less is relevant. | |
May 7, 2015 at 23:05 | comment | added | abarnert |
@Shog9: Lots of tools want output paging but don't want to implement their own pager. Traditionally you do that by piping to $PAGER if it exists, more if it doesn't. Which, on most modern systems, means you're using less programmatically, if not directly. And sometimes you do want to pass along arguments (especially -s )… although you usually wouldn't want to pass anything that POSIX more doesn't specify.
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May 7, 2015 at 22:43 | history | edited | Braiam | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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May 7, 2015 at 22:17 | comment | added | Shog9 | To the best of my knowledge, @Braiam, the less command is not commonly used programatically - it is, after all, intended as an interactive utility. If you can find evidence to the contrary, that would make a useful addition to the discussion here - but failing that, I'm not really convinced this even needs a tag. | |
May 7, 2015 at 22:12 | comment | added | Braiam | @Shog9 then, if less doesn't deserve a tag how are we supposed to categorize them? I, for one, could be interested in knowing the nasty stuff I can do programmatically with less (the command) since I come from a sysadmin background rather than programmer, which tag should I look for? | |
May 7, 2015 at 22:03 | comment | added | Shog9 | No one is saying less (the command) is off-topic, @Braiam. Merely that, in practice, on-topic questions about it are exceedingly rare; those that require tagging moreso. Let's keep scope creep to a minimum. | |
May 7, 2015 at 22:02 | comment | added | Shog9 | As with most things on this site, it's a hybrid approach, @Deduplicator. That said, most tags are applied by ordinary people - folks asking or editing questions. We don't have a dedicated group of taxonomists here to carefully create and apply tags, nor would such a thing be feasible. Therefore, tagging must take its lead from the terms that make sense to those using them; splitting hairs over potential ambiguities when in practice the majority of users understand full well what a tag means is a pointless waste of time and potentially harms future tagging. | |
May 7, 2015 at 21:52 | comment | added | Deduplicator | @JonEricson: Nice paper, thanks. But even skimming the paper makes it obvious that tags here aren't actually a folksonomy, at least as that paper uses the term: We have tag-wikis to give them precise and unambiguous meanings, synonyms to make sure there are no duplicate tags (which inherently means we get to decide which is the master, which makes it possible in some instances to make mistagging obviously wrong), and we have active correction of the contents tags by at least part of the community. | |
May 7, 2015 at 20:57 | comment | added | Braiam | @JonEricson lets see if I'm following you: my plan is that lesscss, less tool/command, and rails-less have their own tags, and that those tags are not confused. You say that a tag for the less command isn't needed on SO. I say "super". Lets close them, since you are suggesting they are off topic (I agree with you, if that's the case) and solve the problem for the other two concept. I'm right? | |
May 7, 2015 at 20:53 | comment | added | zzzzBov |
@Braiam, rather than cherry-picking your data points, can you provide evidence that the percent of users who can't figure out the less tag is higher than the percent of users who can't figure out other obvious things, like say markdown syntax. Picking out 10 or 20 posts out of thousands seems statistically insignificant to me.
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May 7, 2015 at 20:46 | comment | added | Jon Ericson Staff | @Braiam: That would be the false dilemma fallacy. I'd recommend reading up on folksonomies which is what tags are. | |
May 7, 2015 at 20:44 | comment | added | Braiam | @JonEricson lets start closing those questions? | |
May 7, 2015 at 20:36 | comment | added | Jon Ericson Staff |
I don't see any use at all for a tag for the less command on Stack Overflow.
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May 7, 2015 at 20:24 | comment | added | Braiam | @Shog9 that user, this user, this another user, me. | |
May 7, 2015 at 20:21 | comment | added | Shog9 | And that confused... Who, exactly? | |
May 7, 2015 at 20:18 | answer | added | Shog9 | timeline score: 20 | |
May 7, 2015 at 20:16 | comment | added | Braiam | @Shog9 not just me, check the 50 newest questions with the tag. At position 13-14 you will find one which is not about the preprocessor. | |
May 7, 2015 at 20:10 | comment | added | Shog9 | @Deduplicator be honest: do you have any evidence of someone other than Braiam being confused by this tag? | |
May 7, 2015 at 20:06 | comment | added | Braiam | @seven-phases-max check the revisions. stackoverflow.com/posts/1049350/revisions has the less tag since 2009, while the css related had it added in 2011. The actual oldest reference to the less tool is from 2008, but at the time, the tag wasn't applied. | |
May 7, 2015 at 19:30 | comment | added | seven-phases-max | My mistake again: it's stackoverflow.com/questions/1049433 vs. stackoverflow.com/questions/1049350. | |
May 7, 2015 at 19:23 | comment | added | Braiam | @seven-phases-max not sure what you are getting at, both are the same question. | |
May 7, 2015 at 19:22 | comment | added | Caffeinated | This title is cool | |
May 7, 2015 at 19:17 | comment | added | Deduplicator | @seven-phases-max: Ehm, sry, but that's completely off-the-wall. | |
May 7, 2015 at 19:16 | comment | added | seven-phases-max | @Deduplicator So you are suggesting to "reverse" c to c-by-kernighan-and-ritchie-of-78, are you? | |
May 7, 2015 at 19:14 | comment | added | Deduplicator | @seven: Yes, the one who first added a tag-wiki disregarded how it was used. So what? | |
May 7, 2015 at 19:11 | comment | added | Deduplicator | @Shog9: If the synonym was reversed, there would no longer be reason for confusion. | |
May 7, 2015 at 18:44 | comment | added | Braiam | @seven-phases-max I was following the previous discussion, nothing behind scenes. | |
May 7, 2015 at 18:22 | comment | added | seven-phases-max | @Braiam It would be so if you have not aready started to edit the tags behind the scenes. | |
May 7, 2015 at 18:15 | answer | added | seven-phases-max | timeline score: 2 | |
May 7, 2015 at 18:14 | comment | added | Braiam | @Shog9 actually I'm suggesting disambiguation. | |
May 7, 2015 at 18:13 | comment | added | Shog9 | This is crazy "destroy the village to save it" territory. Whatever minor confusion might exist today, burning this tag isn't going to make it better. | |
May 7, 2015 at 18:00 | comment | added | seven-phases-max | OK, let me explain in details why I'm actually pissed of that in such extreme way. Here it's already about Less CSS processor - please enlighten me was this tag already [less] - yes/no? A few months later someone added a remark about shell-less but then it was removed. Then four years later someone else also adds a remark about shell-less and now you guys find it to be enough to change a four years working tag? So if I'll add something about the Latin letter C to [c] you will do the same? | |
May 7, 2015 at 18:00 | comment | added | Braiam | @ASCIIThenANSI What is the exact difference between a 'terminal', a 'shell', a 'tty' and a 'console'? | |
May 7, 2015 at 17:50 | comment | added | ASCIIThenANSI |
How about (for commandline less ) less-terminal or less-console? And then (if and when this is approved) retagging the old questions. Finally, edit the now-empty 'less' tag wiki with a note linking to the other, new tags.
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May 7, 2015 at 17:49 | comment | added | seven-phases-max | @Deduplicator So I looked but can't find an answer to my question. when has this happened? | |
May 7, 2015 at 17:44 | comment | added | Deduplicator | @seven-phases-max: Look at the question I linked and the tag-wiki for less, as well as the synonym. | |
May 7, 2015 at 17:42 | comment | added | seven-phases-max | @Deduplicator You complaining "someone has captured the tag" - Ok, maybe I'm missing something (since I'm only here since 2013). So when has this happened? | |
May 7, 2015 at 17:37 | comment | added | Braiam | @seven-phases-max tags should be unambiguous, independently how popular or the proportion to which is applied. Is two out four points to take into account to burn a tag: "Does it describe the contents of the questions to which it is applied? and is it unambiguous?"; "Does it mean the same thing in all common contexts?" Less fails on both, it means: a term of quantity (in the general folk context), a framework on multitude of language, a preprocessor, a pager, and a gem. | |
May 7, 2015 at 17:36 | comment | added | Deduplicator | @seven-phases-max: See Removing the [less] tag from UNIX questions using the “less” command. Good thing to do? (which I linked before), someone knowing CSS captured the tag-wiki and other used that as justification for untagging (not even retagging to something else) all the pager questions. And now you want to use that as justification for doing so??? | |
May 7, 2015 at 17:31 | comment | added | seven-phases-max |
It looks like you're just trying to push your personal flavors hiding them with pseudo-reasonable rationale. Do you really believe 96% of Less language Q&As marked as [less] are not enough to capture the tag? (i.e it's clearly a command-line tool should be pushed out. And less-rails is no more than just one of the hundreds Less tools out there to not be involved in the decision at all).
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May 7, 2015 at 17:28 | comment | added | Braiam | @Harry added "blacklisting", so the tag isn't created again. | |
May 7, 2015 at 17:28 | history | edited | Braiam | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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May 7, 2015 at 17:26 | comment | added | Harry |
I agree with the suggestion that there should be no ambiguity and support creation of specific tags for each. However, we need a methodical process which involves a migration of existing questions also because without it all that the users would see while creating questions is the old less tag and would simply tag them instead of the newly proposed tags. (Note: I am removing my comments on the SO question because they don't add any value to the question as it is.)
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May 7, 2015 at 17:18 | history | asked | Braiam | CC BY-SA 3.0 |