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Feb 13, 2015 at 2:45 vote accept David Thomas
Feb 11, 2015 at 15:00 comment added Servy @NathanTuggy For votes on the question, that's completely correct, for comments on the question, not so much. The downvote is there to inform other readers or potential readers that the question is problematic, the comment is there to help the author understand why the question is problematic so they can fix it.
Feb 11, 2015 at 0:22 comment added Nathan Tuggy @Servy: Downvotes, to which you compared this, and comments on probable dupe-ness, to which this is most similar, are both aimed at least as much at other (especially experienced) users who can use that information to efficiently deal with questions as at the OP.
Feb 10, 2015 at 22:53 comment added Servy @NathanTuggy When someone is providing feedback on the quality of a question that question is very much targeted at the question author. It's not there to help everyone else. It's there so that the question author can improve their question; if they do, then that will help future readers.
Feb 10, 2015 at 22:34 comment added Nathan Tuggy @Servy: It may or may not be more valuable to the OP. It is arguably less valuable to everyone else on the site. What's more, by pointing out "inadequately demonstrated research" by way of no demonstrated research at all, it at once demonstrates hypocrisy and fails to move the question forward.
Feb 10, 2015 at 15:03 comment added Servy @NathanTuggy We have been told that the question author claimed to have done research. We have no idea whether or not they did research, or how good of a job they did at demonstrating the research that they did. The comment is informing the question author that they failed to adequately demonstrate sufficient research, despite their claim of having done some research. It is feedback on the problems with the question, which is certainly more valuable to the OP than just anonymous downvotes whereby the OP may not realize that the problem was insufficiently demonstrated research.
Feb 9, 2015 at 21:52 comment added Nathan Tuggy @Servy: But it's precisely the fact that the comment holds no value even if correct that is so obnoxious here. The author did research, or did what they consider to be research; telling them "research!" again is of no possible use! It's that "nuh-uh" impression that is also the source of the rudeness, since it's a flat denial of their claim without engaging with it. Conceivably the comment might be of value to other experienced users, but if it's so obvious as all that, insulting their intelligence by saying "now remember to do your job of hunting basic dupes" doesn't do much good either.
Feb 9, 2015 at 20:59 comment added Servy @NathanTuggy I don't see why you do see the post as being rude. It's clear that the author had no ill intent; he was simply being terse. Terseness is not at all equal to rudeness. The comment is also not noisy; it's providing feedback to the author. When someone posts a comment I think is wrong I don't immediately flag it for deletion. If the comment holds no value even if correct then it's something that can merit deletion. That the question states it is well researched doesn't mean that is, just like even though you say your answer is correct, doesn't mean that it is.
Feb 9, 2015 at 20:50 comment added Nathan Tuggy @Servy: I explained both already, multiple times, and have no further clarifications available. I don't understand why you don't consider dismissive phrasing rude, nor why you're defending the sanctity of noisy comments, when those have explicitly and repeatedly been described as second-class citizens that can and will be removed much more eagerly than any other type of post. Nor, of course, do I understand how this counts as constructive; it was merely restating a checklist item the original post explicitly claimed to have addressed. Bare contradiction is (worse than) useless.
Feb 9, 2015 at 20:17 comment added Servy @NathanTuggy No, it is not appropriate to delete a comment just because you think that it's wrong. There is nothing whatsoever in the moderation guidelines indicating that comments that are wrong merit deletion. You seem to be inventing this out of nowhere. What's your basis for asserting that its appropriate to flag comments for deletion purely for being factually incorrect? And I see nothing improper about the way the comment is phrased; it is providing constructive feedback on the quality of the post. You can agree or disagree with that opinion, but that doesn't make it impolite.
Feb 9, 2015 at 20:00 comment added Nathan Tuggy @Servy: My points stand, since the phrasing is relevant and deleting for wrongness at any point still counts. It is possible to politely inform someone that they neglected to look for duplicates, but this wasn't a polite way to do so, since it's dismissive rather than instructive. And, of course, a comment that is deleted because it is now uselessly outdated is essentially a comment being deleted because it's inapplicable to the current state of the post, which is exactly the case here.
Feb 9, 2015 at 15:17 comment added Servy @NathanTuggy Not doing basic research and asking a question with lots of easy to find duplicates would be extremely rude; informing someone that they had done that is not. If it's incorrect, then its no more incorrect than any other incorrect statement; if someone posts an answer that's wrong do you consider that to be rude? The primary purpose of the obsolete flags is for requests that have since been fulfilled; for example if someone comments that something should be fixed in an edit, and an edit is made to fix it, the comment is obsolete.
Feb 6, 2015 at 22:05 comment added Nathan Tuggy "Oh if you had just looked a little bit you would have surely seen an easy duplicate" is a bit rude, especially if it makes no attempt to explain how the looking recommended is different from the looking the OP did. If it's also correct, that can be a net benefit, although not ideal. As far as deleting (now-)wrong comments goes... what exactly do you consider the Obsolete flag for, then? That's explicitly not something that answers or questions get deleted for, ever.
Feb 6, 2015 at 22:01 comment added Servy No, comments are not to be deleted just because they're factually incorrect. You trying to prove that it is factually incorrect is therefore an irrelevant point. It's also not rude at all. That a comment is wrong does not make it rude or not constructive.
Feb 6, 2015 at 21:58 comment added Nathan Tuggy @Servy: When it's a comment, it is! But more to the point: in this context, at least one high-rep user spent some time looking for trivial duplicates, and found none. The comment is therefore at best obsolete, but because it's also somewhat rude and will continue to actively worsen the question, non-constructive is a better match. Now, in cases where there is a trivial duplicate that you can find, of course, go ahead and flag the question accordingly; the comment has, however unpleasantly, done some good in the end. But if it doesn't? Out it goes!
Feb 6, 2015 at 21:54 comment added Servy @NathanTuggy That is again assuming that the comment is actually wrong. What if it's not wrong? What if I just edited the example to make it crystal clear that the question author didn't actually do any research, there were obvious, trivial to find, and quality duplicates? You're arguing that because one example might possibly be wrong, it's inappropriate. Content isn't deleted for being wrong.
Feb 6, 2015 at 21:50 comment added Nathan Tuggy @Servy: I realized (and edited in) something that may clarify the issue here: not only is the comment not helpful, it tends to waste time from experienced users by misleading them into thinking there's an easy dupe flag. Its presence therefore actively makes the question more of a drain on site resources.
Feb 6, 2015 at 21:48 history edited Nathan Tuggy CC BY-SA 3.0
Added a further note
Feb 6, 2015 at 12:52 comment added Thomas Weller Wow, what a discussion. Someone should invent a chat feature... oh, wait...
Feb 4, 2015 at 18:40 comment added Servy @canon Which is a sign that the comment may have been wrong in this instance. That doesn't make such comments universally inappropriate. Of course, it's also possible that while the OP demonstrated some research effort, the commenter felt it wasn't sufficient. Without context, I couldn't say if he is right or wrong. It's also possible that the solutions he found do solve his problem, or that he failed to adequately explain why what he found isn't working for him.
Feb 4, 2015 at 18:34 comment added Servy @canon You don't have to look everywhere. You don't need to prove that it is impossible for you to find the information, just that you don't need to prove that God doesn't exist. You merely need to explain what you have done, where you have looked, what problems you've had with the information that you have found, why it has not worked, etc. You don't need to prove that your question isn't a duplicate, just that you weren't able to find one. Stating that you couldn't find a duplicate, or that you did your research, is very different from demonstrating that you did your research.
Feb 4, 2015 at 18:27 comment added Servy @canon I have said several times, that if you feel a comment is incorrect, you can reply to indicate that you feel it is incorrect, adding whatever evidence you would like. Flagging a comment for being "incorrect" is just going to end up with it being declined. Comments aren't deleted by a mod for being wrong. And the idea that making a comment like this is universally inappropriate just because there is a possibility that they will sometimes be incorrect sounds like a very bad idea.
Feb 4, 2015 at 18:15 comment added Servy @canon The fact that someone else doesn't want to take the time to do the research that the post other was obligated to do before asking the question on behalf of the question author, particularly if they know that finding the information is extremely easy, seems entirely reasonable to me. How else will people learn to do research if you always do it for them without any expectation of them doing it themselves? You assume the commented couldn't find a duplicate. Perhaps they found one in a few seconds and that is how they knew that the OP could have found it just as easily?
Feb 4, 2015 at 18:13 comment added Servy @canon As I say in my answer, the only way to close a question as a duplicate is to provide the duplicate. Closing a question is radically different from just posting a comment to provide feedback. It's actively inhibiting anyone else from answering. The fact that closure requires more than just one person thinking it's a duplicate, without actually providing one, is quite reasonable. Asserting that someone cannot say that a post isn't sufficiently researched without doing all of that person's research for them is very different.
Feb 4, 2015 at 18:08 comment added Servy @canon So your response to "this question didn't do sufficient research effort" is to do the OP's research for them, and not tell them that they did anything wrong. This is actively encouraging them to not do research in the future, because they know that someone else will just do it for them if the post the question without performing even cursory research. Again, if you think that the question did perform sufficient research, then you're just saying that this comment is incorrectly evaluating this post, not that comments saying thinks like that are inherently problematic.
Feb 4, 2015 at 17:57 comment added Servy @canon Again, if you feel that the author wouldn't have been able to find a working solution with any reasonable amount of research effort, you are more than welcome to provide that feedback. Informing someone that their question has problems isn't universally prohibited because it's possible that in some cases they might be wrong. If you think a particular piece of feedback is wrong, then say so, don't assume that nobody should be providing any negative feedback ever.
Feb 4, 2015 at 17:49 comment added Servy @canon If the comment is incorrect, then by all means address that problem. Reply and state your conflicting viewpoint if you disagree with it. The fact that you think that it's wrong doesn't make it not constructive or meriting deletion. As for what use it serves, it provides feedback to the author that there is a problem with their post, feedback that they can potentially use to improve the post, or feedback that they can ignore. Either way, that's up to them. Silencing people from providing feedback is simply not constructive.
Feb 4, 2015 at 15:03 comment added Servy The post isn't unconstructive. It is informing the post author of problems with the post that they should correct. Telling someone that they have a problem, even if you don't actually fix the problem for them, is still constructive. Without the comment, the OP would simply be unaware of the problems with his own question, and therefore be unable to do anything about it.
Feb 4, 2015 at 0:05 history answered Nathan Tuggy CC BY-SA 3.0