Timeline for Disappearance of "too minor" -- where is the relevant discussion?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
41 events
when toggle format | what | by | license | comment | |
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May 23, 2017 at 12:38 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
replaced http://stackoverflow.com/ with https://stackoverflow.com/
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Mar 20, 2017 at 10:32 | history | edited | CommunityBot |
replaced http://meta.stackexchange.com/ with https://meta.stackexchange.com/
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Oct 8, 2014 at 17:37 | comment | added | gnat | I see, thanks! link to that discussion indeed helps to refer up-to-date status, agreed | |
Oct 8, 2014 at 16:59 | comment | added | Shog9 | That's why I wrote a blog post, @gnat; that said, folks who didn't bother clicking through to the discussion linked to in this answer from day one already cheated themselves out of the information they so desperately wanted. I'll take a look at the related question... | |
Oct 8, 2014 at 9:42 | comment | added | gnat | consider editing the answer to update it with details of recently introduced "no improvements whatsoever" reason. It probably wouldn't hurt to additionally address related question: What do I now do for a previously “too minor” edit? | |
Sep 11, 2014 at 15:25 | comment | added | Shog9 | You two are just noisying up this comment thread now... If you really want to hash out something useful, hop into chat. | |
Sep 11, 2014 at 15:05 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit I'm not making that assertion. I've provided several reasoned arguments for why this change is harmful, and provided evidence that this change will cause harm to the site. You're more than welcome to consider those points, provide counter points, evaluate the validity of their assumptions or process. That's how a discussion works. Over time, everyone involved learns more about the topic, and possibly a consensus results. You've done none of that. You've asserted your opinion and refused to explain it or support it. | |
Sep 11, 2014 at 14:59 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | Talking to you is like responding to comments on YouTube and I promise I will try to do a better job of not continuing, since I admit you keep drawing me back in to defend myself against your nonsensical accusations. | |
Sep 11, 2014 at 14:55 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Servy So now your points are 100% true... because you raised them. You're doing my nut in, mate. You are a hypocrite and an illogical individual. Indeed, as I've said, I'm not talking about this with you any more. It's entirely pointless. I made my case in several places throughout this question, but you keep on refusing to read it. It's so rude and obviously untrue that I don't understand how you are not embarassed by this! | |
Sep 11, 2014 at 14:55 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit You haven't actually said much of anything. Just about all of your comments have been deflections, your unsupported opinions, you saying time and time again that you're refusing to continue the conversation, you continually changing the topic to something unrelated which I have subsequently refuted, only to have that point too be ignored. The only actual evidence, reasoning, or arguments that you've given as to why this change is good is your opinion that it will be good, nothing more. | |
Sep 11, 2014 at 14:53 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit Considering the points doesn't mean that you explained your reasoning for ignoring them, explained why they should be ignored, nor is it providing evidence that they should be ignored. You statement that I am slandering you is itself slander. All of the points I just raised are 100% true. The fact that you considered the points before ignoring them is in no way supporting evidence that they should be ignored. Your opinion, without any support, that they should be ignored is just that, your unsupported opinion. | |
Sep 11, 2014 at 14:43 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Servy Total nonsense - the comment you linked to says I considered your points "carefully". You're bordering on slander, here. Be cautious. If I'm not bothering to defend my position any more then it's only because you're going out of your way to pretend that I haven't done so; therefore, there are much better things I can do with my time. Please read my answer and let's leave it at that now okay? | |
Sep 11, 2014 at 14:38 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit You openly admitted to rejecting my points out of hand without reasoning, explanation, or evidence. As to whether there is a right answer, there is a decision that's better for the site and one that's worse, so if you consider the site being better "right" then there is a right answer. You're (once again) responding to the assertion that you're not supporting your position by refusing to support your position. | |
Sep 11, 2014 at 14:33 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Servy: wtf? I've responded to every single one of your points, across many many comments. Also, your final sentence there is an obvious logical fallacy. Finally, there is no objective "right or wrong" here so you are just as guilty at asserting correctness as you accuse me of being. This discussion with you is swiftly becoming nonconstructive as long as you insist on this malicious approach to debate. Simply put, I'm not going to continue with this farce until you can engage me without arrogance and rudeness. | |
Sep 11, 2014 at 14:15 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit An assertion to which you have provided zero supporting evidence. You have refused to respond to all of the points that I have raised on the subject, instead merely asserting your position without backing it up in the slightest. Saying your right over and over again doesn't make you right. Your inability to even attempt to support your position is significant evident that you are in fact wrong. | |
Sep 11, 2014 at 14:13 | comment | added | Servy | @Shog9 There most certainly are major systematic problems with review. All evidence I've seen indicates that this will only ever make things worse, probably pretty dramatically so over time. This change is actively incentivizing editors to make lower quality edits, and it's removing the primary tool that reviewers have to reject those low quality edits. It's also doing nothing to address what I consider the core problems with review, namely a lack of means for new reviewers to learn how to review well, incentives to review badly, and a lack of tools to detect/prevent/reverse bad reviews. | |
Sep 11, 2014 at 14:11 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Servy As I've stated many times now, rejecting every spellcheck edit you see is not beneficial for the site | |
Sep 11, 2014 at 14:06 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit No, it's a result of the fact that there is nothing anywhere to teach people how to review suggested edits. The only guidance available to them is what rejection reasons there are. That's pretty much all that a reviewer has to work on to determine what should or shouldn't be rejected. That said, how in the world is it a bad thing for the system to encourage people to take actions that are beneficial to the site? If people's initial unguided reactions to a suggested edit is to take an action that harms the site then you're quite right I want to guide them elsewhere.\ | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 23:16 | comment | added | Shog9 | This points to a systemic problem with review, which I put firmly at the feet of too many bad canned rejection reasons - so the solution is to fix that. @Servy | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 21:30 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Servy ...which just goes to show that people don't actually believe in such rejects but as just being shoehorned into it. If the masses really thought as ypu do then they would follow your rejections regardless. Don't try to grab control over the mindless reviewdrones for your own ends please! | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 19:25 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit I could, but no item I ever voted to reject would ever actually get rejected without a stock "too minor" reason because there would never be two other people rejecting it with a custom reason. | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 19:23 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Servy You can still do it with a cuatom reason. Hopefully that will prevent trigger-happy rejections with that reason. | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 14:13 | comment | added | Servy | @Shog9 But that's just it. As a reviewer I can spend the time, think through the proper course of action, determine that a review is completely pointless and not adding value, but I can no longer reject the review for that reason, even after spending that time to determine that it's not adding value. You didn't edit the wording of "too minor" to make it less vague and give it stricter guidelines that require more evidence, you removed the reason entirely, preventing posts from being rejected for that reason. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 23:46 | comment | added | Shog9 | Again, "accept" is already the easiest review, @Yakk. If you're out to blow through a review as quickly as possible with no other considerations, then you're not even noticing an option to reject is missing... If you do care, even a little bit, then you have some new options, with more coming - but they do actually require you to think. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 23:40 | comment | added | Yakk - Adam Nevraumont | @shog9 If you want to make people think harder, removing the path of 2nd least resistance is a bad plan. That'll reduce the robo-rejectors (which ... again, I assume they exist? The quality of edit that actually gets a rejection is so low in my experience that I'm wondering...), but increase the robo-acceptors (some of the lazy rejectors will just say "meh, I'll just accept"). | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 23:37 | comment | added | Shog9 | Not really, @Yakk - more along the lines of, "we want reviewers to feel strongly about decisions that are made". The problem with a vague rejection reason is that it becomes a path of least resistance - approving edits has always been the easiest review action, but rejecting with a vague reason is a close second. If you're gonna reject, you should have a good reason for it - and with these changes, if you're willing to back that up with an edit you're practically guaranteed it will take effect. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 23:33 | comment | added | Yakk - Adam Nevraumont | The first order effect of this change should be "when an edit is reviewed, it is more likely to be approved than before", as it discourages rejecting an edit. The second order effect is it should discourage people who used to reject "too minor" edits from reviewing, magnifying the first order effects. Assuming the designer of the change intended these effects, the position is "we want more minor edits to be approved, there was too much rejection of them under the pre-existing system". Is that accurate? | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 22:30 | comment | added | Shog9 | That, I could get behind @Servy. Beyond that, I'll note that what you're really after here is some sort of "made NO improvements whatsoever" rejection reason, which is fair - again, see the discussion I linked to regarding revamping the rest of these reasons. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 22:09 | vote | accept | David Moles | ||
Sep 9, 2014 at 21:00 | comment | added | Servy | I'd also like to take a second to point out that if we remove the rep incentive to post bad/minor edits, so that the people actually editing posts will be primarily people with an actual intrinsic motivation to improve the posts, can at least ensure that a lot of people aren't submitting these edits, even if we can't reject them. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 20:32 | comment | added | Servy | @Shog9 Since the only practical option you've left available is to approve the edits, that's what you'll get. And with no practical way of rejecting edits for being minor, you'll remove any incentive for editors to make substantial edits. I mean why spend 20 minutes actually fixing a post when you could just remove the "thanks" instead and get the same +2 rep. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 20:30 | comment | added | Servy | @Shog9 If we can't get people to reject those edits when there's an actual system defined reason for it, what makes you think you'll actually get 3 reviewers to reject the edit using a custom reason? The edit shouldn't be skipped, it should be rejected. If the reviewer conclusively knows that it should be rejected and why they should be able to reject the post, they shouldn't be skipping it. None of the reviewers should be obligated to put in the rather large investment in time to completely fix up a train wreak of a post just to reject an equally terrible edit. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 20:28 | comment | added | Shog9 | No one is obliged to do anything, @Servy. But one might reject such an edit with a custom reason ("please try to actually improve the post in some way"), reject it with a partial edit, or... just skip it and leave it to someone else. For the future, I'm kinda liking this suggestion for a canned reason. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 20:11 | comment | added | Servy | @Shog9 And what if a post is a complete pile of crap, editing it into a good post is likely impossible, and just fixing most of what is fixable would likely take a good 10-20 minutes, and someone comes along and removes the "thanks" from the end. Is the reviewer now obligated to spend 20 minutes editing the post (to which the review will with 100% certainty get approved while this editing takes place) just to get the edit rejected? | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 14:28 | comment | added | Shog9 | "Truly flawless" is kind of a mythical beast, in my experience @Trilarion. But yes, the handling of suggested edits is notoriously inconsistent - hence the recent efforts to change how it works. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 13:56 | comment | added | NoDataDumpNoContribution | @Shog9 Yes I thought so because it is the borderline example of what you laid out. I thought it was handled differently in the past and I saw edits rejected but maybe I'm mistaken. Just for fun I searched for "the the" with google because this is a very common mistake and found 168.000 (!) but then I clicked on them and the problem is that most of these are not otherwise truly flawless..I gave up. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 13:46 | comment | added | Shog9 | If a post is truly flawless... save for one flaw... that an edit corrects... Then hell yeah you should approve that edit, @Trilarion. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 12:26 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Trilarion Of course. Correcting spelling errors improves the post. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 8:21 | comment | added | NoDataDumpNoContribution | So if a post is kind of flawless except for a tiny spelling mistake and correcting this is a suggested edit then since there isn't really anything one could add, it should be accepted? | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 4:50 | comment | added | Cody Gray Mod | Makes sense, but if you go removing all of the features that people don't agree on what they mean, there won't be much of anything left. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 1:51 | history | answered | Shog9 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |