Timeline for Disappearance of "too minor" -- where is the relevant discussion?
Current License: CC BY-SA 3.0
50 events
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Sep 11, 2014 at 15:01 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit You saying that you dismissed the comments because you considered them is the very definition of dismissing them because you say you're right. The fact that you thought about what your opinion should be before asserting that your personal opinion is objective fact that you are right doesn't mean that you provided evidence, that is not a reasoned argument, and it is not a supporting point for your position. It's just you saying your right and nothing else. If you explained what you considered, why you considered those points, etc. then that would be an argument. | |
Sep 11, 2014 at 14:36 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Servy I don't know if maybe there is some language barrier here; perhaps English is not your first language? But at no point have I even approached suggesting that "I'm right because I say I' right" or that I've dismissed all counter points "out of hand". Indeed, in the very previous comment I said that I considered them carefully and you can see evidence of that in the 50 or so comments I've now written on the issue across this mess of a meta question. Come back when you're ready to have a mature, logical discussion instead of flinging around total nonsense. | |
Sep 11, 2014 at 14:18 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit So you're right because you say that you're right, without supporting your position, dismissing all counter points out of hand without any evidence, reasoning, or discussion, and without any supporting points of your own. And you think that that's a compelling reason to take a particular course of action? Really? Are you serious? | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 21:28 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Servy I did consider the effects, quite carefully, and then I dismissed them as trivial. I'm not "naive" and I'm not taking shortcuts; please don't assert ownership of the high ground here. | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 19:06 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit Improving content is certainly nice, but everything has costs. Ignoring all of the costs and merely asserting that some action is good just because there is a gross positive effect without even considering the drawbacks is naive. There are all sorts of things that we could do to improve content that would have costs far greater than the benefits received. When evaluation an action you need to consider all of the consequences, not just one of them. | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 19:04 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit I've listed quite a number of problems that they cause. Are you asserting that those problems don't exist, or that they don't matter? Up until now you've just deflected and avoided actually addressing any points specifically. | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 19:02 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Servy Again I dispute that any real harm is evident. Improving content must surely be our primary goal. | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 18:59 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit Suggested edits have a greater cost to them than non-suggested edits. They consequently have a higher bar in terms of the value that they need to add to have a net positive effect on the site. Do you really think it's worth harming the site (by either approving suggested edits that have negative net worth or discouraging non-suggested edits that have a positive net worth) just so that you can assert that suggested edits and non-suggested edits aren't ever treated differently? Is the equality actually that important? | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 18:55 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Servy Ah that's interesting. I make a point of applying the same rules to all edits. I recognise that suggested edits having any cost is as distinct to direct edits, but it feels unfair to the potential content improvement to discriminate on that basis. | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 16:29 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit I don't consider the edit you just quoted as too minor. It's also worth noting that it's not a suggested edit either. That's significant. | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 16:21 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Servy Meh I can't even find it now. Maybe it got deleted. I'll take a closer look later. For the record, the edit on this answer is also absolutely fine. It gets rid of the horrible, grating abuse of code formatting in several places as well as obnoxious overbolding, and thus improves the formatting of the post... and the experience of reading it. Is it minor? Yes, relatively. Is it too minor? Absolutely not. Since we should not fundamentally alter the meaning/content of answers it seems that you would only accept a very select subset of all possible edits. | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 16:20 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit I thought I knew what we were talking about, but your last comment didn't make sense with what I had in mind, hence my question. Let me know when you figure it out. | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 16:18 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | Wait, no it wasn't, that one's poor. Now I'm confused. Hang on let me find it | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 16:16 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Servy It seemed like an odd question since you had also been apparently talking about a specific edit until just now. Now suddenly you're confused by me doing just that. Odd. Especially as, despite your claim, there is only ONE in this particular thread. Anyway, it was this one | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 15:43 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit There are several linked edits, and several hypotheticals discussed. I don't see a single one that appears to have turned a bad post into a great one, so, due to my confusion, I'm asking you to clarify which edit you're referring to. If I knew which one you were referring to I wouldn't have asked in the first place. | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 15:32 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Servy the one linked to in this comment thread. if that's not the one you meant by "the edit [was too minor]" in your comments above, then which? I don't see any others under discussion. | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 15:13 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit Which edit are you referring to? | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 15:11 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit Because the edit is too minor. It is literally the textbook definition of too minor. | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 15:10 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Servy Oh, edits on totally unsalvagable posts is another matter entirely. I guess I'd support a custom reject in that case. But it's obviously not the case on the post in question, which is now spot on thanks to that "too minor" edit. | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 15:06 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit If the post is still completely unreadable, unanswerable, and has no value even after the edit then no, the edit didn't add value. Do you go around cleaning up a building that's set for demolition later that day? If you answer no, does that mean you're arguing against ever cleaning buildings and asserting that cleanliness isn't important? No. | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 15:00 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Servy It did add value. Quite clearly. It fixed broken, uncomfortable language making the post easier to read and SO a tiny bit more professional-looking. Maybe it didn't make you rich or save five children in Africa, but it added value. The post is better now than it was before. If you're one of those people who doesn't think grammar, spelling or presentation have any value then this is not the right site for you. | |
Sep 10, 2014 at 14:41 | comment | added | Servy | @LightnessRacesinOrbit The edit was too minor. It was an edit that wasn't wrong, it was just adding zero value to the site. That is the definition of too minor, an edit that's only flaw is not adding value, or not adding enough value. While a custom reason, such as Michael's suggestion, explains why it's too minor, "too minor" is still what it is. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 22:06 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Michael Sounds like we're in agreement! Too minor was mostly misused. Those trying to defend it have little basis to do so. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 22:05 | comment | added | user289086 | @LightnessRacesinOrbit too minor was the one click proxy for a lot of different reasons before (just as many of the old close reasons). This is part of what was confusing... and people weren't taking the time to reject with a custom written one in part because sometimes when you wrote one that properly explained why you were rejecting it, it was reviewed already - no one ever saw it (other people clicked too minor more quickly than you typed it). With the changes to the review (a period of exclusivity) and the removal of the proxy, it allows people to write reject reasons that are descriptive. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 21:59 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Michael Yeah ok that makes sense. Still not a reason for "too minor". There's been lots of outcry on this thread about "too minor" being removed, yet nobody's yet been able to give me a valid example of its use! | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 21:54 | comment | added | user289086 | @LightnessRacesinOrbit is it wrong to remove a tag that doesn't apply or fix the tags? No. It is not incorrect nor is it an attempt to reply to or comment on the existing post. However, if the question is closed and no amount of editing will make it an openable question, then one should instead consider a custom reason that explains that no amount of editing (short of the OP coming and really fixing it) is appropriate to the question. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 21:23 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @MichaelT If the edit is wrong then reject as "invalid". It is not " too minor". | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 20:26 | comment | added | Cody Gray Mod | @ydae "Too minor" was never a thing for people with full editing privileges anyway. It applied only to suggested edits. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 15:56 | comment | added | user289086 | @LightnessRacesinOrbit I've seen tag killing efforts where some <2k users are retagging or editing old, poor, closed posts (such as, hypothetically, this - upload and uploading? whats apc doing there?) where the proper thing to do is probably to delete the post instead. Without a significant amount of involvement from the OP of that example question, there is no amount of editing that can save the question and make it a good one. Many old too localized questions are particularly prone to this needless editing. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 14:02 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | @Michael Ehm, retagging old posts is fine. Posts are not just for the benefit of the original author, but for all current and future visitors. Hence, their quality is important. I'd say the same is true for some closed questions, though arguably all closed questions other than duplicates should be deleted. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 10:00 | comment | added | ydaetskcoR | Ironically this edit of the answer appears to be too minor to me. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 9:45 | history | edited | Qantas 94 Heavy | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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Sep 9, 2014 at 9:11 | comment | added | Alexander Tobias Bockstaller | Before the "too minor" reason was removed, I already tried to improve minor edits. Unfortunately it was very common that while I was improving a minor edit, the edit had already been approved by other people, so that I couldn't apply my edit. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 3:40 | comment | added | user289086 | @slebetman thus part of the confusion about what too minor means. When someone changes dialectical spelling, reject it saying British English is fine as a custom reason. When someone edits to retag an old closed post, say that that isn't helpful in the reject reason. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 3:39 | comment | added | slebetman | @MichaelT: Sorry.. ignore my rant. I just noticed "invalid edit". | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 3:37 | comment | added | slebetman | Some of the ones I used to keep rejecting is to respell words in American English. It used to be agreed that all forms of English spelling are acceptable here but some people just can't resist. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 3:36 | comment | added | slebetman | @MichaelT: Yes, but at some point in the future where 80%-90% of all "custom" refer to "unnecessary" I think it is worth while to re-introduce "too minor" only rename it "unnecessary". Note that this is also how I use "too minor" not to signify that I don't think the edit is complete but to signify that I don't think the edit has any reason to exist. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 3:31 | comment | added | user289086 | @slebetman there is still a custom field. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 2:52 | comment | added | slebetman | We need a new reject reason to replace "too minor" - "unnecessary" - the edit doesn't address or fix anything at all. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 2:03 | comment | added | user289086 | @nightcracker if there are other issues in the post, and you don't want to fix them as part of reviewing and editing, you could click 'skip'. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 0:44 | comment | added | eddie_cat | I don't think it really matters if someone makes minor edits and gains 2 rep if there's really nothing else that could be done with the post. Eventually they'll hit 2k rep and they're doing things that we recommend doing anyways, like removing "thanks" or fixing a spelling error. It's not like the suggested edits queue is inundated anyways. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 0:38 | comment | added | Lightness Races in Orbit | Rejecting an edit that removes "Thank you" is absurd. We do not want people to write "thank you" at the bottom of posts, therefore by our quality metric an edit that removes that text improves the post. Why do you not want to improve the post? Utterly absurd. It seems that you're just out to punish people for being "lazy" and not changing more about the post. But, hey, not every post has more than that to fix. And if it does? Well, great, you or someone else can fix that later. But that's no reason not to make the immediate improvement. No reason at all. It's also not your job to "punish". | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 0:32 | comment | added | Robert Harvey Mod | Discussion moved here: meta.stackexchange.com/q/239106 | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 0:31 | history | edited | PM 77-1 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
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Sep 9, 2014 at 0:08 | comment | added | orlp | @RobertHarvey No, it's called "I want to review edits, not make them". If I wanted to make edits I could open any arbitrary page and edit away. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 0:08 | comment | added | PM 77-1 | @RobertHarvey : I believe you missed my point. I'm talking about cases when the post was basically OK "as is" and the edits that are not needed since they don't really improve anything. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 0:07 | comment | added | Jerry Coffin | @RobertHarvey: What about a post that simply didn't need editing in the first place, and somebody did a trivial edit apparently to gain rep, with no improvement to the post at all? | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 0:07 | comment | added | user207421 | @RobertHarvey That's a fallacious argument. An edit reviewer isn't obliged to make any edits himself at all. You don't have to lay an egg to be able to spot a rotten one. | |
Sep 9, 2014 at 0:03 | comment | added | Robert Harvey Mod | Too Minor suggests that the edit should be "substantial, addressing multiple issues in the post." If you are rejecting edits that don't meet that metric, but then failing to make the substantial edit yourself, isn't that kinda the pot calling the kettle black? | |
Sep 8, 2014 at 23:57 | history | answered | PM 77-1 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |