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Jun 16, 2016 at 15:23 comment added Ryan Whats scary is that most of the users who downvote will never go back to the question to reverse their downvote when the question is fixed, so suddenly we have a very good question and answer, but due to meta, it still has a dozen downvotes, discouraging people from even viewing it (after all, downvotes mean its not a good quesiton), making it even harder to correct itself. even a good question that is lacking can get downvotes easily, no matter how easy it is to fix. A rare fringe case yes, but it can and kind of does happen.
Aug 27, 2014 at 20:00 comment added gnat @TylerH my understanding is, they learned to thread carefully when working on features like this. If you check comments there mentioning "Black Weekend", you'll see that past experience shows such changes could bring much mess if done wrong
Aug 27, 2014 at 19:58 comment added TylerH @gnat Admirable of Shog9, and somewhat expected, but that remains just a discussion; no change has happened or even begun, as far as we can tell.
Aug 27, 2014 at 19:32 comment added gnat @TylerH well many (probably most) of these should be deleted but as far as I understand, these are expected to be deleted automatically, without any system flags, see What should the system be deleting automatically that it already isn't?
Aug 27, 2014 at 17:02 comment added TylerH @gnat LQ queue might work quickly, but only on things that are flagged as low quality. I haven't spent a ton of time in that queue but when I have, I haven't noticed any of the -5, -30, or -howevermanydownvotes questions/answers that this site still harbors. There are 3300 answers right now between -5 and -50 aggregate score... Why aren't these automatically flagged by the system as low quality after so many days? They should be. That would be a compromise with which I would be happy.
Aug 27, 2014 at 15:18 comment added gnat @TylerH you're over 2K, why don't you just try it yourself? 6 these "recommendations" actually delete garbage in a matter of minutes if not seconds (LQ queue works really fast). See: Is “recommend deletion” secretly a vote to delete?
Aug 27, 2014 at 14:56 comment added TylerH @gnat At what point can they delete? Not at 2K; you can only recommend for deletion then. And to help your understanding, I am not worried about moderators being careful in their decisions; I'm not sure where you got that impression.
Aug 27, 2014 at 13:23 comment added gnat @TylerH moderators have too much more power than normal users (their decisions are unilateral, binding and harder to review) and that's the reason why they have to be more careful in their decisions. I fail to understand why this worries you, low quality cleanup seems like just the kind of job for community. Stack Overflow has 30,000 users with privileges to do that (2K rep), they seem to be doing just fine (over 1 million reviews so far) and I fail to see how throwing 17 moderators into this effort could have any significant impact
Aug 27, 2014 at 13:12 comment added TylerH @gnat Just because a moderator should be cautious doesn't mean they shouldn't use their tools to ensure SO quality meets SO's directives, which--whether staff-stated or community-decided and reinforced--call for quality answers, with low quality content being pruned out as it is found. If the community downvotes a question or answer into oblivion, the message is pretty clear: the content in question is crap and needs to go. Otherwise we spend years devolving into the site we are today, with dozens of duplicate questions/answers on how to write first-tutorial-level code using 5th-grade English.
Aug 27, 2014 at 13:08 comment added TylerH @gnat whatever the reason is that you're trying to milk out of me, it's a poor one that, coupled with normal users' ability to delete low quality posts, only highlights the myriad problems SO faces. Do we want the community to decide what kind of site SO is, or the SE staff? This has yet to be decided and is only causing more and more of a mess. Right now it seems like users are winning, albeit in a pyrrhic way; SE owners seem content to let the community dictate behavior but stop short of making changes to reflect the site's schematic design (as opposed to visual design).
Aug 27, 2014 at 8:00 comment added gnat @TylerH six regular ("normal") users officially can delete any low score answer via low quality posts review "just because they want to". But moderators are expected to be more (much more) cautious when deleting (now, could you think of a reason why this is so?)
Aug 25, 2014 at 19:59 comment added TylerH @MichaelT I don't understand how normal users should delete content when moderators should not. That seems to misunderstand the role of a moderator. But there are so many problems with SO that I'm not surprised.
Aug 25, 2014 at 19:53 comment added user289086 @TylerH you should discuss that with the (diamond) mods... though I suspect they'll tell you that its not their place to delete incorrect answers. 20k rep users, though, they can... though it does get tedious to be doing such moderation tasks on a purely voluntary basis. They (20k) can't do anything about answers that are up voted (so remember that its important to down vote answers that are crap that have a positive score so that they can delete them if the feeling comes over them).
Aug 25, 2014 at 19:23 comment added TylerH @MichaelT Then we should request for moderators to start doing moderator tasks, which should include pruning on a site like this, whose goal is to curate quality content.
Aug 25, 2014 at 19:12 comment added user289086 @TylerH the 'and prune them regularly' is something that hasn't been shown to be done on Stack Overflow. Flags to delete answers are chancy things (I think I'm a bit under 50/50 for link only answers) and the 20k crowd seems hesitant to do so ( meta.stackexchange.com/questions/221337/… ). And mods will not delete things where there was an attempt at answering.
Aug 25, 2014 at 18:33 comment added TylerH @MichaelT The difference here is the clear and proven distinctions between positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement from a psychological point of view. From the accepted answer of one of your links, it states "downvoting should be used to push low quality content to the bottom". If we cap downvotes to -5, and then prune them regularly, I don't see a problem. The reason we don't cap upvotes is myriad-fold (probably made a new word there), not least of which is the fact that we want to keep good content, and get rid of bad content. It only makes sense to prune " -5 " content over time.
Aug 25, 2014 at 18:25 comment added user289086 @TylerH By that logic, one should also cap up votes at +5, because after that everything is just fluff (it represents the communal opinion). At such a point, increasing the up vote count only serves to boost their ego. I'd suggest reading meta.stackexchange.com/questions/160477 for some historical commentary on this and meta.stackexchange.com/questions/112749 on blocking down votes.
Aug 25, 2014 at 18:10 comment added TylerH @MichaelT ... "this answer/question is bad/needs serious work". If I ask a question and it gets -5 downvotes, it's pretty clear that something is wrong. Another 10 to 30 downvotes isn't going to make it more clear that something is wrong. Comments or a community downvote "reason" (similar to the auto-commenting when flagging questions as duplicates) would be infinitely more helpful and less rude to newcomers.
Aug 25, 2014 at 18:05 comment added TylerH @MichaelT ...didn't read the part of Tim's response where he says"These people are just punishing me. Thanks, people, I heard all 22 of you telling me how much I suck." This is real problem with StackOverflow, and there's no useful/productive distinction between a score of -5, -42, or -200. All of those vote counts show a clear message from the community. At such a point, increasing the downvote count only serves to rub dirt in their face. The long and short of it is, if a question accumulates enough aggregate downvotes, it should be marked as a community opinion...
Aug 25, 2014 at 18:04 comment added TylerH @MichaelT In order of your comments: "are being removed" != "should be removed", though I'm moreso talking about questions, than answers. I'm not sure what you mean by your following questions (you link to opinionated questions/answers and then talk about "wrong", which doesn't apply to opinions), but you wouldn't differentiate a -42 from a -8, because they would both be "capped" ("troughed"?) at -5. Answers that the community disapproves of get voted down; -5 is enough to know that the voting represents a communal opinion (rather than one or two); your final question makes me think you...
Aug 25, 2014 at 17:50 comment added user289086 @TylerH There are 3294 answers with a score of -5 .. -50 - these are not getting removed. And if its locked at -5, how do you differentiate a -42 from a -8? or -38 from -13? And why should I be prevented from down voting something that is wrong?
Aug 25, 2014 at 15:25 comment added TylerH If mass downvotes are turning the function from useful to harmful, why not put a limit on the number of max current downvotes a question or answer can have? For example, once a post hits aggregate -5, no more downvoting can happen. Upvoting can still happen, because people can always find it useful (and thus reinforce its importance to the site & community), but you can't downvote it anymore (unless someone else upvotes it, thus making the aggregate score -4). After a short period (a day? a week? a month?), -5 questions/answers should be removed from the system anyway.
Aug 25, 2014 at 9:56 comment added gnat "Post is at -5 or lower, and reduced in score etc" -- that sounds pretty close to recent request to track and take into account negative feedback from hot list visitors (btw @MichaelT have you seen it). Did you consider tracking it too Tim, or this effort is limited only to negative feedback coming to Stack Overflow questions from meta / chat?
Aug 25, 2014 at 5:19 history edited user50049 CC BY-SA 3.0
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Aug 24, 2014 at 14:42 comment added gnat @MichaelT isn't it interesting how suggestion to show read-only copies of hot questions has been happily ignored for several months while similar one proposed here caught much love and attention so fast. Lovely isn't it
Aug 24, 2014 at 4:17 history edited AstroCB CC BY-SA 3.0
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Aug 22, 2014 at 19:59 comment added user289086 @Michael note that there are lots of votes, and how do you distinguish something from a post, or from the hot questions on the sidebar? And why just meta? How significant is meta compared to hot questions? Reddit? Hacker News? Chat? Ars Technica? Is this a big hubbub compared to other more significant sources?
Aug 22, 2014 at 18:35 comment added Michael can we detect if someone has voted on a question because he became aware of it through meta? (it should be possible: track the referer when viewing a SO-question; have a table (post_id, user_id, time) and whenever user X clicks a link on meta that points to a SO-question, add (post_id of SO post, user_id of X, NOW()) to the table... That shouldn't be too hard. I could code it in a weekend.)
Aug 22, 2014 at 16:51 comment added Louis ... be invalidated because a bunch of other folks also put their votes after coming from meta. Because others voted like I did, my vote does not count. Sheesh! But if I happened to come across the question the day before, my vote would (presumably) be okay. How is the vote I cast after coming to the post through meta materially different from a vote I would have cast the day before?
Aug 22, 2014 at 16:48 comment added Louis This answer is still colored by what you proposed in your previous answer. "Keep in mind, the system does reverse hundreds or more votes daily as it detects suspicious patterns." As far as I know, in every single such case a person will have their vote annulled if and only if they themselves engaged in a pattern of voting. For instance, in the span of an hour Alice upvoted hundreds of Bob's answers. Whatever reversal happens is only because of Alice's own behavior. But to counter the meta effect, a single vote I cast on a post I happen to learn about through meta would somehow...
Aug 22, 2014 at 15:27 comment added Brad Larson Mod This might also be useful to examine targeted voting patterns from chatrooms. I've been a little troubled by some posts that I've seen bombarded with downvotes after being posted into certain chatrooms. The degree of voting on these posts seemed unjustified based on their content, but I'm not sure where to draw the line for malicious targeted voting vs. people being free to vote how they want. It'll be interesting to see if anything could be learned from your study.
Aug 22, 2014 at 15:23 comment added user289086 Tossing one more complication into the tracking the data... Just as the hot question side bar on meta can be difficult to differentiate from actual meta content, be sure to identify the source of a chat post. There's that little slide down feed ticker for questions that shows up and the occasional one boxed question from Feeds that is quite different than a post from a human in the room that leads to votes... isn't it?
Aug 22, 2014 at 14:55 comment added user289086 Trying to block (or reverse) down votes on posts that are deserving of such seems to indicate that this is a burying one's head in the sand and delay the ultimate fate of a crappy question or answer. One should be sure to also look at the ultimate fate of the post. Don't bury one's head in the sand and acknowledge that fixing crappy questions is sometimes a painful process that results in down votes and deletion of questions.
Aug 22, 2014 at 14:50 comment added user289086 It is also important to consider if the votes are unwarranted Elsewhere it was said "Guess what: if your site is full of crappy questions, your site sucks - even if they're not highly-ranked by your own users, [...]. You can work to fix that - as painful as that process is - or you can bury your head in the sand and blame it on all of those stupid people from elsewhere. [...] Blaming someone else is easy and fun for the whole family - but it doesn't fix anything."
Aug 22, 2014 at 14:44 comment added user289086 ... of course, you're going to include other sources, and not just meta in this. It would be useful to see how powerful/frequent the meta effect is compared to, say, data.SE, hot questions, hacker news, reddit, ars technics and such. I put data.SE in there because I know I've triggered voting based on links to queries. It is also important to ask why such focus on down votes. I do acknowledge that hot questions could be a bit trickier to differentiate - how does one distinguish "What does the smiley face “:)” mean in CSS?" linked from the hot question sidebar rather than a meta post.
Aug 22, 2014 at 14:34 history edited user50049 CC BY-SA 3.0
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Aug 22, 2014 at 14:28 vote accept George Stocker
Aug 22, 2014 at 14:26 history answered user50049 CC BY-SA 3.0