Timeline for Should we add RTFM to the list of off-topic close reasons?
Current License: CC BY-SA 4.0
35 events
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Jun 7, 2022 at 12:39 | history | edited | Peter Mortensen | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
(While we are at it.) [<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_clause_structure#Run-on_sentences>]. Added some context.
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Jun 7, 2022 at 5:37 | history | edited | slugster | CC BY-SA 4.0 |
added 7 characters in body
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Jun 3, 2022 at 4:31 | comment | added | Karl Knechtel | The acid test: would a link-only answer to the question (where it is obvious what link to use), actually answer the question? Then it is not a good question, as it naturally attracts answers that should be flagged and deleted. | |
Jun 3, 2022 at 4:29 | comment | added | Karl Knechtel | On the flip side, I have all kinds of sympathy for a beginner who can't put together two concepts from the documentation in order to solve a problem, or struggles with even a simple "reverse documentation" problem - the documentation answers "what does X do?", but the question is "which thing does Y?", and sometimes there are a lot of candidate "things". In short, it is 100% about the "filling in the gaps" part, and about what those gaps consist of, and whether they are in fact there at all. | |
Jun 3, 2022 at 4:27 | comment | added | Karl Knechtel | " there is absolutely no difference. Yet we have no issues with creating a good answer for those experienced user's questions, pointing them to the relevant documentation as a reference, and then filling in the gaps for them." Meh. The experienced user is first off better at asking questions generally (explaining concepts using jargon properly; writing clearly about concepts due to having a clearer mental model, etc.). Despite that, I absolutely will get upset with experienced users who ask questions that are directly answered by the documentation, and that does frequently happen. | |
Dec 5, 2016 at 22:35 | comment | added | user663031 | close reason will be used as the lazy man's close reason The lazy man already uses the existing close reasons as a close reason. Adding another one won't change this at all. | |
May 14, 2014 at 12:47 | comment | added | nnnnnn |
"and then filling in the gaps for them. Why can't we do the same for newbies?" - It's the "filling in the gaps" part that makes your hypothetical experienced user's question valid. If the relevant documentation doesn't explain something well that can confuse even experienced users. On the other hand when a newbie posts a "What does the jQuery .toggle() method do?" question, the best answer really is "RTFM and come back with a more detailed question if you still don't understand."
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May 13, 2014 at 16:34 | comment | added | yshavit | And I do think SO needs to take care of its "old" members as well as being welcoming to new ones. I used to answer a lot of questions; now I spend much less time at the site, because the signal-to-noise ratio is so low that it's not worth it -- it's not fun anymore. I'm helping fewer people, and it looks like I'm not the only one. A few bad questions here and there are something we can all handle; an influx of them hurts the whole site, and that's what we seem to have now. | |
May 13, 2014 at 16:30 | comment | added | yshavit | @AaronLS I try to be friendly to people who ask ultra-newb questions if it's one of those "don't know what to look for until you know the answer" situations, like the ternary operator. In fact, I called out someone for being rude in one of those situations. But just yesterday I saw yet another example where googling the exact text of the subject line gave the results. That's not being a newb to programming, or even a newb to SO; that's just plain laziness. You don't need to be an "insider" to know that's disrespectful of other people's time. | |
May 13, 2014 at 15:27 | comment | added | AaronLS |
Also a "google away" implies someone has enough experience to know what the terminology is for somthing. In C# the ? operator has a couple different terms associated with it depending on the usage. If you come across it in code, it's nearly impossible to google if you've never seen it before. The ternary operator is covered in many texts, but the nullability operator is often not covered in basic texts.
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May 13, 2014 at 15:24 | comment | added | AaronLS | blog.stackoverflow.com/2012/07/kicking-off-the-summer-of-love | |
May 13, 2014 at 10:53 | comment | added | jwenting | well said, it will become the standard reason to close anything that people don't consider interesting enough to look up an answer for... And with the internet now, good chance some blog or other website has something that could help figure out an answer to most things, so anything at all would fall under it. | |
May 11, 2014 at 4:48 | comment | added | slugster | @Cupcake You have a point, but I think it is a different one. I think the industry is going to strike trouble in a few years when 100% of the participants were educated after SO came into being and answers were a couple of keystrokes away - none of them will have a clue how to solve the truly tricky problems. | |
May 11, 2014 at 4:23 | history | edited | user456814 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Expanded questionable abbreviation.
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May 9, 2014 at 11:45 | comment | added | Your Common Sense | That's exemplary answer that address imaginary Stack Overflow site. | |
May 9, 2014 at 8:21 | comment | added | Amicable | Can we just have an angry face button that shows the question as closed just for the person who clicked it and for everyone else just shows up as downvote. | |
May 8, 2014 at 17:43 | comment | added | Gabriel Southern | My least favorite LMGTFY answers are the ones that are the first result on Google for the question I've searched for. | |
May 8, 2014 at 16:23 | comment | added | yshavit | I keep hearing that the bar to entry is too high, but I also see lots of questions that show little to no attempt at research. There have literally been questions where the exact text of the question yields the correct answer in google, as the first hit. So however high the bar to participation is at SO, it is apparently comparable with googling. That strikes me as too low, not too high. | |
May 7, 2014 at 21:49 | comment | added | Raydot | @Slugster I think you nailed it. Other than that there's just that big huge difference between the way the world ought to be and the way it is. | |
May 6, 2014 at 23:23 | comment | added | Bohemian Mod | One issue I have is an RTFM answer is effectively plagiarism of the official doc, so our attribution standards require a link... to the doc. And thrre's the rub. And further we are not adding value with such an answer - we are just a cache of the doc. Answers requiring explanation of doc (eg some subtle point) I am fine with, because we're adding value. | |
May 5, 2014 at 3:24 | comment | added | dfeuer |
I think I should mention that some easy questions covered by documentation can be hard to search for. Pre-incrementation/post-incrementation is a good example of that—if you only know the ++ symbol, and not the words that relate to its use in C relatives, you may find it rather hard to find what you seek.
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May 4, 2014 at 23:29 | history | edited | slugster | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added 171 characters in body
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May 4, 2014 at 23:16 | history | edited | slugster | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
added 1684 characters in body
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May 4, 2014 at 23:12 | comment | added | ClickRick | Oh, I spent plenty of time on BBSs and Usenet, on a range of topics. Properly resourced RTFM answers were the least of their troubles. | |
May 4, 2014 at 22:56 | comment | added | slugster | @ClickRick There is nothing stopping people from leaving a link to the doco now. If you've ever spent time in newsgroups you would have seen the hurdle that RTFM answers produce - they can downright alienate new users. | |
May 4, 2014 at 21:25 | comment | added | Warren Dew | Let's not forget all the manuals that are opaque or downright wrong. | |
May 4, 2014 at 18:30 | history | edited | user456814 | CC BY-SA 3.0 |
Made list easier to read.
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May 4, 2014 at 18:30 | comment | added | ClickRick | A (suitable) LMGTFY link is actually a better answer than many answers I see, as it "teaches a man to fish". Bohemian's proposal now includes the requirement to link to the original documentation: on that basis it gets parity with SO's existing "duplicate of..." close reason, and would serve over time to improve the standard of questions which those users would be likely to leave in future. | |
May 4, 2014 at 10:06 | comment | added | Denis de Bernardy | @Matt: for a coder, even a beginner, a simple google or doc away from getting fixed should not be classed as a "hard" problem | |
May 4, 2014 at 9:34 | comment | added | Matt | @Denis: which is where we disagree. An answer becomes "easy"/"simple" once you've solved the problem yourself. To the beginner though, it's still a hard problem to solve. "RTFM" will end up being used as close reasons for questions which, whilst not complex, are not actually in the documentation. Show your hatred for these questions by downvoting and moving on, not by VtC. | |
May 4, 2014 at 9:30 | comment | added | Denis de Bernardy | @Matt: And what? They'll then get closed as they should be. | |
May 4, 2014 at 9:29 | comment | added | Matt | +1 for your last point: the "RTFM" close reason will be abused for any question which is remotely "easy" | |
May 4, 2014 at 9:28 | comment | added | Denis de Bernardy | "but people are still confused about it despite the numerous articles out there" because they cannot be bothered to locate or read them. FTFY. | |
May 4, 2014 at 9:12 | comment | added | psubsee2003 | In a more recent example, RTFM would replace the "minimal understanding" close reason too. | |
May 4, 2014 at 5:44 | history | answered | slugster | CC BY-SA 3.0 |