70

Yesterday a new poster asked this question: How do I track down this exception in netbeans?

The question related to a problem when using the NetBeans installer to install NetBeans, and there were several comments and an answer which collectively pointed the user in the right direction for a possible resolution.

The user acted on those suggestions, and posted an answer explaining what they did to resolve their issue. Their answer was subsequently deleted after review from four users:

deletedAnswer

Now there is a minor issue with this answer: it contains a fair bit of redundant fluff...

Got it! Thank you all for your help...

...This is great because now I can work on my programs away from home, I depend on that time to get my coursework done!

Thanks again!!

But after removing the fluff it becomes a solid answer that can definitely be helpful to others:

I deleted the recommended folder C:\Users{User ID}\AppData\Roaming\NetBeans{NetBeans version}\config, as well as the rest of the netbeans directory for that matter. It had been already uninstalled and perhaps the directory that remained was a relic from one of my previous attempts.

In any case, I then downloaded the zip of the binaries and did it that way. Learning that it seemed to be an issue with the installer itself was key.

Anyone offended by the fluff in that answer could easily have just removed it with an edit, but instead the answer was deleted! To add insult to injury, one of those voting for deletion even added the (upvoted!) comment "Please don't add "thank you" as an answer. Instead, accept the answer that you found most helpful." when they could have just as easily addressed the problem.

Other points:

  • I couldn't see that any of the four voting for deletion had ever even answered a [netbeans] question.
  • Installer issues are frequently difficult/impossible to resolve by others because the problem is not readily reproducible - every machine environment is different - so self answers to installer issues are especially helpful. Sometimes all anyone else can do is offer suggestions on things to try.
  • The question itself had no downvotes or close votes, so there is no obvious issue there. It is useful, and on topic.
  • Why and how are some answers deleted? offers ""thanks!" or "me too!"-type responses" as one reason for removal, but an edit could have addressed that concern, since the answer also definitely did "fundamentally answer the question". (Removing fluff is perhaps the easiest and safest form of all edits.)

My view is that an enthusiastic new poster posted a useful question, and an on-topic self answer that had a minor fixable problem, and it was incorrectly closed. If SO wants to drive new posters away, this is a great way to do it. A couple of questions arise:

  • Since this deletion seems so egregious (to me), perhaps I am missing something obvious. Was the deletion of the answer valid and appropriate?
  • Is there any mechanism to get deleted answers undeleted?
22
  • 10
    Have you considered editing it and casting an undelete vote?
    – Kevin B
    Oct 14, 2022 at 20:26
  • 34
    It seems, based on that comment and its upvote, that at least two of the reviewers saw that first "thank you" line and stopped reading. I agree, this is a valid answer, and it should have been edited, not deleted.
    – zcoop98
    Oct 14, 2022 at 20:26
  • 14
    @KevinB how? given that voting to undelete an answer requires 20k. Oct 14, 2022 at 20:28
  • 3
    @KevinB No I hadn't considered that, but I have now edited the question to remove the fluff. But, as Robert points out, I can't vote to undelete it.
    – skomisa
    Oct 14, 2022 at 20:32
  • 2
    @RobertLongson ez, just earn 5k more rep! (/s) I had no idea the deletion privilege was split in that way
    – Kevin B
    Oct 14, 2022 at 20:35
  • 3
    "The question itself had no downvotes or close votes, so there is no obvious issue there. It is useful, and on topic." Disagreed; bad questions get +1 all the time. "if anyone can point me in the right direction, it would be greatly appreciated!" is the closest the post gets to a question and we know that doesn't qualify. "Installer issues are frequently difficult/impossible to resolve by others because the problem is not readily reproducible" What is not readily reproducible is off topic, and unlikely to help others. Oct 14, 2022 at 20:58
  • 38
    @KarlKnechtel Your claim that "if anyone can point me in the right direction, it would be greatly appreciated!" is the closest the post gets to a question" is blatantly false: [1] The title of the question is "How do I track down this exception in netbeans?" [2] You carefully cherry picked that quote, deliberately omitting what precedes it ("Here is the log showing the exception, ") and the stack trace that immediately follows it. It is crystal clear what the user is asking about. You've grossly distorted what the user posted.
    – skomisa
    Oct 14, 2022 at 21:25
  • 4
    @KarlKnechtel Unfortunately you can't judge what the question said by 1 sentence of its content. Having that sentence yes is bad, but a simple edit can remove that to make the post clear of what it wants. All a question needs to qualify is to have none of that fluff, and a clear asking of what they want and what they have currently.
    – DialFrost
    Oct 14, 2022 at 23:42
  • 2
    There really aren’t many options for reviewers. Checking now on mobile, there is paraphrased „Ok“, „Edit“ and “Delete“. Its certainly not okay and since about half the post was what you call fluff it is quite a stretch to claim editing is easy. The accusing tone towards the reviewers seems unjustified… Oct 15, 2022 at 6:40
  • 15
    @MisterMiyagi Re "it is quite a stretch to claim editing is easy", my actual claim was "Removing fluff is perhaps the easiest and safest form of all edits.". I stand by that. Don't mischaracterize what I wrote. Mischaracterization frequently happens here on meta, and it is really harmful to productive discussion. [2] In this specific case the original answer contained eight lines and the fluff could be removed by deleting the first two sentences and the last two sentences. Anyone reviewing who finds that specific edit challenging should probably not be reviewing at all.
    – skomisa
    Oct 15, 2022 at 16:51
  • 4
    @skomisa I suggest you do not mischaracterise, either. Were the voters "offended by the fluff"? Did the commenter "add insult to injury" by suggesting improvements? Does "they could have just as easily addressed the problem" imply anything other than that editing is easy? Oct 15, 2022 at 17:33
  • 2
    Your edit left a lot of fluff.
    – philipxy
    Oct 15, 2022 at 20:47
  • 6
    @MisterMiyagi Perhaps I'm misunderstanding the gist of your comments, but it seems like you're suggesting that the reviewers were in fact, correct, or at least justified in recommending the answer for deletion (i.e. picking the "Delete" option)? If so, I think you should write an answer expanding upon that. I would quite like to hear the reasoning for such a position, especially the bits about options when reviewing on mobile, which I must confess I didn't follow at all. Or maybe the "mobile" bit is a comment on how the nature of the review queue is at fault for the answer being deleted?
    – cigien
    Oct 16, 2022 at 14:07
  • 2
    @skomisa FYI the comment under the answer is added automatically from review when the reviewer chooses a certain option, and any subsequent reviewers who choose the same option cause the system to apply an upvote to that respective comment. This is indicated by the "From Review" link at the end of the comment.
    – TylerH
    Oct 17, 2022 at 13:33
  • 2
    This feels like somebody is just having a bad day and "Neil" was in the wrong place at the wrong time, it doesn't look like something that warrants severe moderation. I had people in the past few weeks/months with severe formatting and unappreciative responses, all your efforts are just there hanging not even a single vote up after almost an hour of solving their confusing questions, "Neil" speaks like someone who knows how to interact and "appreciate" responders effort, I'm not sure if "Neil" is worse than some of the posters I just encountered, but I do hope things go well moving forward.
    – z.g.y
    Oct 17, 2022 at 17:43

3 Answers 3

54

The only real issue with the current answer is all the fluff which caused it to be deleted. Thankfully it was undeleted and edited by @skomisa to make the answer clearer so that it now more obviously answers the question.

Side note: I don't think that users should judge a post by a few words, phrases, or sentences. The answer seems to have been deleted because the reviewer said "Thank you!" in the answer, even though right after that was the helpful information to solve the problem. So maybe this is a learning point?

0
4

I have already accepted the answer from DialFrost since it closely reflects what is in my head and heart about this issue. However, I did want to raise a few issues arising from my question:

  • The answer was from a fairly new poster, but little acknowledgement or consideration of that appeared here. I think it's relevant; deleting an answer from a high rep user which contained that much fluff would be justified, but we should surely make some allowance for a new poster. Just because you can vote to delete a question for containing fluff does not mean that you should.
  • In my view, apart from the fluff, both the question and answer were of above average quality from a newish poster, who also showed enthusiasm and respect. We should do all we can to encourage such new posters, rather than discourage them by focusing on any minor errors that they made.
  • This is the test that I think should apply to such answers in review: Even with its fluff, is this answer likely to help other users? If so, edit the answer to make it better, or skip it, or add a comment to the answer explaining to the user that their question should be edited. The final option is my preference; you have put the onus on the user to address their issue, and they are more likely to learn from it.
  • It's worth noting that the offending answer has now been edited six times by users with a reputation > 15k! Posting an answer that won't offend anyone is clearly not easy. I suspect if we look hard enough we could find fault with most answers on SO, but for goodness sake let's keep some perspective, especially for new posters.
  • Somewhat OT, but regarding fluff in answers I noticed this on the Help Center page How do I write a good answer?:

Pay it forward

Saying “thanks” is appreciated, but it doesn’t answer the question. Instead, vote up the answers that helped you the most! If these answers were helpful to you, please consider saying thank you in a more constructive way – by contributing your own answers to questions your peers have asked here.

I don't understand what "Pay it forward" means, and that section has nothing to do with writing a good answer. Surprisingly, it also states "Saying “thanks” is appreciated" which certainly goes against conventional wisdom. I think that section should be removed completely.

2
  • 2
    The Saying “thanks” is appreciated is followed immediately by "but", and then says "instead ...". I'm not sure how exactly it could be rephrased to be clearer, but it's definitely not claiming that users should be saying "thanks".
    – cigien
    Oct 18, 2022 at 5:24
  • Yes, it's certainly not claiming that users should be saying "thanks", but it is still definitely saying that it "is appreciated". Given that the subject being discussed is "How do I write a good answer?", the entire "Pay it forward" section that I quoted is bizarre and confusing. I think it should be deleted.
    – skomisa
    Oct 18, 2022 at 7:15
-31

Deletion in review was justified. The issues with the answer were far from minor and a proper edit would have required significant effort.

The comment was not left out of malice but is in fact a standard review comment. Reformulating it to also cover the case of misleadingly worded answers may be appropriate. enter image description here


The LQA review currently has three review options:

  • Looks OK
  • Edit
  • Delete

The answer had severe content and formatting issue. It seems safe to say that it did not look OK. That only leaves the options to Edit or Delete.

The "fluff" made up a significant part of the answer and was closely intertwined with the little "proper" content. The answer clearly thanks others and clearly refers to just doing what others recommended. I dare say both misidentifying1 the answer as "Thank You" and not being able to salvage the question are reasonable conclusions.

In fact it has taken multiple revisions to get the answer into shape. The first revision – which people also thought sufficient for undeletion – removed any indication that the steps solved the issue; in this state the answer only listed additional steps by the question author. Fittingly, the LQA Review also has a delete reason for posts that look like this:

enter image description here

In short, salvaging the answer via Edit was far from easy and certainly not en par with the other options.

While I think that Edit would have been a better choice, it seems unreasonable to expect reviewers to make significant edits. As such Delete was justified as well.


1The only reason why I say "misidentifying" is that the recommendations were in comments and thus an answer was necessary to preserve the content. If the comments had been posted as an answer, then the answer under review would have been a "Thank You" and just accepting the answer would have been proper.

11
  • 28
    I think you've missed the 4th option available to reviewers, which is "Skip". There's only one action other than skipping that was reasonable in this case, which was to edit the answer. I certainly agree that reviewers should not be expected to edit an answer if they don't want to, since it can be more work to do so. However, "I don't want to edit the answer" should translate to "Skip" rather than "Delete" shouldn't it?
    – cigien
    Oct 17, 2022 at 3:56
  • 9
    "If you're not going to do something properly, don't do it at all". No one is forcing the reviewers to review. Ironically that's the accusation made by reviewers against the answer, that it isn't proper with all the bells and whistles in the right place. But they themselves are guilty of the same verdict.
    – TheMaster
    Oct 17, 2022 at 6:40
  • 2
    @TheMaster There is no accusation made by the reviewers. This speech that reviewers are guilty of a verdict and some of what has been said in the meta question is seriously out of line. Oct 17, 2022 at 7:16
  • 3
    @cigien To clarify, I am not saying deletion is justified whenever people just don't feel like editing. When a significant edit is required to get content into shape and naive editing might even leave content in worse shape, deletion is justified. Oct 17, 2022 at 10:19
  • 4
    If I may ask, though I don't have any intention to further any debates or start a hostile discussion, but you said "The answer had severe content and formatting issue", is it really not formatted? English is not my native language neither a language I'm good at writing, but which part of it is not formatted properly aside from having greetings? it sounded like a college student undergoing an excitement out of a struggle, the punctuations look good, its doesn't look like your typical posts with greeting that doesn't warrant further reading...
    – z.g.y
    Oct 17, 2022 at 17:30
  • @z.y You can check the edit history for the most part. Missing code formatting, a lot of filling, the two bits of information spread out wide. Are there much much worse answer? By all means yes. But without the meta fairy, “excited struggling college student” is a sure-fire way to get downvoted. In my book, keeping around content for that treatment isn’t better than deletion. Oct 18, 2022 at 18:07
  • @MisterMiyagi I think we could all agree that actions made to him and the way you defend it is all but being disagreed on. Yes I checked the history, everything that was did to him and the way you defend how the rules were exercised against him looks more of a pedantry than acting upon it with a good intent, like I said, somebody might be having a bad day and "Neil" was the unfortunate target.
    – z.g.y
    Oct 19, 2022 at 4:03
  • @z.y Please refrain from asking for clarification if you are not interested in it. It's how this answer came to be in the first place, and it seems to have been equally baiting. That the majority disagrees was established long ago. Oct 19, 2022 at 6:55
  • @z.y That said, it wasn't somebody with a bad day. It was four people agreeing to delete and who-knows-how-many that did Skip and did not salvage the post. Chalking this up to pedantry against a specific user is a disservice to the review and curation process. We cannot fix every such wrong decision by retroactive outrage. Oct 19, 2022 at 7:06
  • Agree @MisterMiyagi, but its not an outrage actually, Im also interested both about the issue and how you defend the wrong actions done and I'm just speaking out my thought on how it was treated in a way I see it. - "disservice to the review and curation process" - is exactly what I'm implying about pedantry, but hey! we each have our own perspective right? I just hope there would be a system in place for any "disservice" that can happen to every party involve if a similar case occurs, and I agree its not good to continue what has been long established.
    – z.g.y
    Oct 19, 2022 at 7:13
  • @z.y "I agree its not good to continue what has been long established" then I suggest you don't instead of baiting further. Oct 19, 2022 at 7:16

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .