131

So being on this site for a few years, it feels like I have to do more administrative work than actually help people. I comment and flag more than actually answering interesting questions. It has become something of a meme that people on Stack Overflow always criticise people for asking dumb questions, but given the goals of the site, I am starting to feel that it is justified.

People ask dumb questions. Not dumb as in they're not knowledgable enough, but dumb as in I can search their title and find several duplicates. Or that they ask homework questions without any attempt. Or asking for code. Or spam. Or just want an answer but don't want to learn, and instead want a coding monkey to do the work. Or think that someone who wants to help them with their answer also wants to refine and format their question.

Of course, I can just leave; as many suggest. But I want to help people who are looking to gain knowledge and want to be constructively criticised. But a majority of the questions are just bad.

Is it better to just take a break, or stay and do what I do, at the risk of being toxic once in a while? What is the consensus for someone with my mindset?

18
  • 9
    You could try taking a break, but it's difficult, if not impossible, to stop recognizing posts in that way once you start. You could choose to look past that fact and help others anyway, choose to continue instead curating content, or... preferably, do both. There's nothing toxic about seeing posts for what they are.
    – Kevin B
    May 26, 2022 at 19:48
  • 55
    Channel your feelings constructively by downvoting and closing bad questions, helping to curate the site.
    – khelwood
    May 26, 2022 at 19:52
  • 5
    Re "I want to help people who are looking to gain knowledge": You can do that by pointing them to the canonical question (in a non-RTFM way). That also very much help the site as search engine hits become much more valuable when the canonical questions are easily found. May 26, 2022 at 19:53
  • 8
    @khelwood Yes, that is what I do. I downvote and flag questions more than answer questions. It just feels like administrative work. And that's where my motivation goes down. May 26, 2022 at 19:55
  • 6
    how is that toxic?
    – Kevin B
    May 26, 2022 at 20:07
  • 29
    If you do all of the actions in your post without commentary (e.g. don't leave comments criticizing such users or posts), then it is not really toxic, just... standard curation.
    – TylerH
    May 26, 2022 at 20:50
  • 13
    Most of the professionals who are here come here to contribute and to help others, not to spend all of their time sweeping the floor.... but 95% of productive participation seems to involve floor-sweeping May 26, 2022 at 22:25
  • 24
    It's normal to be covered in poo if your job is to scavenge cesspools; just wear protection and wash your hands. And don't ever feed the regex questions after midnight. May 26, 2022 at 22:33
  • 3
    The frustration of seeing the same no-effort questions being asked over and over will (in part) go away when you get a relevant gold tag badge. Then your ability to google duplicates fast will be channeled into binding close-votes without having to wait for other experts to agree or for the OP to confirm duplication. And other close-worthy questions are also duplicates, more often than you think.
    – blackgreen Mod
    May 27, 2022 at 6:12
  • 1
    "it feels like I have to do more administrative work than actually help people" - helping people is in hindsight on this site and that means you can only rely on statistics. You have a respectable amount of reputation, I am sure a lot of that came from people who were helped by what you did. You don't get it from the administration work.
    – Gimby
    May 27, 2022 at 7:56
  • 11
    Never forget: Administrative work is helping people. It's helping people easily find the right answer without much noise, which probably is >95% of the usefulness of Stack Overflow. The amount of users using Stack Overflow as a knowledge repository far exceeds those asking questions. It's just not as gratifying since you don't get points/green checkmarks/etc and you don't know who you're helping, but imo it's far more important.
    – Erik A
    May 27, 2022 at 9:22
  • 6
    Do what I've done at times. Just step away for a bit. Think about and do other things. I've completely stopped reviewing when it became obvious that I was burning out and making stupid mistakes as a result. Now that I spend more time commenting and occassionally just dropping in on a post outside of review and curating from there, it's quite a bit more relaxing.
    – ouflak
    May 27, 2022 at 11:13
  • 2
    "If you do all of the actions in your post without commentary ... then it is not really toxic" I agree, but new users don't seem to see it that way. Just recently I saw someone post "I'm ashamed to be part of this community" when they got 2 downvotes without comments. It seems to me that often just moderating the site in the way it's designed to be used pisses people off, which is a fundamental issue with the system itself.
    – Michael
    May 27, 2022 at 13:35
  • 6
    @Michael or it's a problem with people who don't ask acceptable questions. You don't hear all the people understanding and following the rules because they aren't loudly complaining. May 27, 2022 at 15:36
  • 3
    Close reasons were invented as the first set of being nicer, more "welcoming". They were intended to replace the endless pit of downvotes certain questions got. This is, after all, a peer review system; and without closure being concise and specific, a black hole of downvotes and comments explaining the downvotes can be a little rough. Overall it is fairly pleasant here, some people just have a certain level of anxiety associated with peer review in general. That plays out more and more when the closure system creates friction in places where it is confusing.
    – Travis J
    May 28, 2022 at 6:22

10 Answers 10

112

Things that are not toxic:

  • Acknowledging that some posts are bad
  • Downvoting said bad posts
  • Closing questions
  • Choosing the questions you want to answer based on any criteria you see fit.

Don't contribute to the dilution of the meaning of "toxic"; it does not mean what the perennial detractors of the purpose of the site purport it to mean.

Please do continue contributing, both in technical knowledge and in moderation help. We need all of both that we can get. If you're feeling burnt out and want a break, take a break! Just don't let it be because people bullied you into thinking you're 'toxic'.

And please flag content suggesting you should leave for holding the opinions you do.

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  • 19
    A sidebar - if we're running into a situation where people who can provide this kind of expertise and moderation assistance are starting to burn out and withdraw away from doing so, what could be done to bring them back or help them see this as less of a chore? Like, I get it - the site needs all it can get - but saying "don't leave" to someone in a relationship that's fed up with the state of the relationship without making changes usually doesn't go down too well.
    – Makoto
    May 26, 2022 at 20:41
  • 6
    Certainly, burnout is its own thing @Makoto. I'm reading this scenario less as classic burnout and more as the bullying from site detractors having its predictable effect. Added some text.
    – Undo Mod
    May 26, 2022 at 20:45
  • 30
    @Undo - I would agree. Forget about the new users feeling they are being bulled because they asked a question about their homework, without any attempt at performing the task themselves, what is the real problem is that same user bullying other users into feeling bad about closing that question. Community moderation is necessary. Community moderation, is not bullying new users, what happens to the community moderators is indeed bullying. May 26, 2022 at 21:12
  • 3
    Agreed, but I do see how doing such things frequently can make one feel toxic. This topic is not so much about what is and is not toxic, it is more about how it affects the psyche of the curator.
    – Gimby
    May 27, 2022 at 7:57
  • I disagree, what "toxic" means is what the downvoted people feel, not what you declare. Downvoting a "newbie" with zero points posting a "bad" question without giving any directions is just that: a newbie asking questions. Downvoting him/her into the minus IS toxic because they feel so. Jan 22, 2023 at 11:31
  • @CouchDeveloper You seem to be doing exactly what this answer advocates against: diluting the true meaning of toxicity, which is the degree at which a set of behaviours is considered harmful to someone, to a group, community or society. It is problematic to suggest that someone should be pressured or shamed away from making a fair assessment of a post. Feeling attacked by legitimate downvotes is not a feeling that will be validated here.
    – E_net4
    Jan 22, 2023 at 13:16
  • @E_net4 the idiot downvoter I exactly mean it like your definition, literally. I did not suggest anything, though. But, your third statement is quite confusing to me. When it's not about the side effects (aka feelings) of receiving certain treatment, what is it then about? The topic is still "I'm starting to get toxic", which I interpret as being toxic to someone else. IMHO, you can't just ignore the matter of fact that many SO newbies get disappointed or get the impression that SO is extremely toxic, no matter what's your opinion about your own behaviour. Jan 22, 2023 at 15:23
  • 1
    @CouchDeveloper I don't ignore the concerns raised by those who have had a bad experience on SO. I attribute that to bad communication of expectations. If they came here and asked a question knowing that the question will be subjected to criticism and evaluation of quality and usefulness, they wouldn't drop the word "toxic" once their question was downvoted. Because after all, there are many other scenarios in which giving negative scores is a well accepted practice in professional settings, such as failing an exam, or having a paper or presentation rejected for a conference.
    – E_net4
    Jan 22, 2023 at 15:51
  • @E_net4 the idiot downvoter I know all the difficulties to give a good answer for someone who is overwhelmed by just everything and has no clue where to start with a good question. But it's time to search for a solution to not scare off newbies. Allow me some ideas: 1. Give newbies a start package of 100 points. If they drop down to 50, they have to read the "How to" basics, and confirm they understood them and practice them. 2. If they drop to zero, they need a break where they should really put more effort in asking. Jan 22, 2023 at 16:29
  • @CouchDeveloper use a new question to make such propositions, but expect them to be poorly received anyway. None of those really solve the underlying problem of people taking curation too personally.
    – E_net4
    Jan 22, 2023 at 16:42
51

Funny; reading this I was thinking to myself, "I am this mindset."

But I would not classify it as "toxic"; no no no. So long as you're not actively belligerent to anyone in the categories you describe, you're not being toxic. You're probably burnt out instead.

Going to say that there's really no quick fix for something like this. Being vested in something like Stack Overflow and feeling exhausted with the constant bombardment of less-than-desirable quality questions and making it feel like you're doing work with no top cover or help inbound means that you should simply...stop. Find a new hobby to get yourself into.

For a period of time I stopped voting at all on questions and content. It helped, but since I see this site a lot, it's tough to resist the temptation to downvote something that really needs it, or to find a duplicate when it really needs it.

What I've done is just set up some boundaries for myself on the site. I don't operate with the intent to clean up the site or with the intent to "correct" behaviors on the site. I simply believe that a bad question should be downvoted and off-topic questions (and dupes) should be closed. Don't give more of a damn than the benevolent dictators who are meant to be running the place, and you'll keep your wits about you.

I've also got a new hobby in trying to set up robotic automation for Pokemon games to perform some of the more...tedious...aspects of it. Not that I wrote any of it myself, but I do plan to port the working environment from Windows to Docker + Wine so that I can build and execute it on Linux.

So...you've gotta get yourself some good fences and a hobby away from Stack Overflow. Pokemon ain't for everyone, so I can't recommend that.

1
  • Thanks for the diagnosis. What the OP describes definitely reads like curation burn out, not more not less. May 30, 2022 at 6:09
27

Welcome to the Curators Not-so-Anonymous meeting, we are glad to have you!

Joking aside, we really are, every long-standing member of the community with their mind set not on flooding the site with questions or answering anything that moves (and doesn't) eventually comes to a point where they start to shift into trying to keep existing posts in shape (what you called "administrative work").

As with everything in real life, we start very enthusiastic and wanting to contribute and be helpful as much as possible. However, as we grow older (or the longer we stay engaged with something / someone), we realise the world does not work like this — burnout settles in, you start to notice the ugly sides, grievances and falling outs start to accumulate.

Before we know it, we come face to face with a crisis of meaning. Does what we do matter? Have I done enough? What to prioritize? At this point, there is a choice: to lay down your arms and go do something else that resets the loop for a while, or to grit our teeth and press on.

Know that you are not alone.

Know that there is a community of like-minded users who try to keep the quality of the site afloat.

Know that many feel like you do often.

We have SOCVR to coordinate cleanup efforts. We have Charcoal that battle spam and abusive posts. We have SOBotics if you want to try your hand in curation chat bots. We have BSOR to help weed out bad reviews from the site. We now have SOTB for managing tag-related efforts. We have UserScripters (shameless plug) if you want to focus on user experience.

Curation is not toxic, it's literally the only thing that keeps the site from crumbling under the weight of 5.7k+ questions a day. Wear that badge proudly.

Know that you are not alone.

17

I can completely identify with these feelings. I passed the same process. This is somewhat inevitable when you answer more and more questions, you go from always trying to help to getting tired of seeing the same question again for the tenth time.

Personally, I continue to answer questions I feel good about, and relax about the other questions. Of course, the best thing to do is to search for duplicates/downvote and comment, but sometimes I feel I don't have the energy to do that, and then I just downvote without commenting or skip the question altogether. I prefer to downvote without commenting than to not vote: many times other people will downvote for the same reason and they will have the energy to comment (the other times they may downvote and I explain; that is the power of community), and voting is important to keep the site clean. Even if nobody will comment, askers that are following the site rules will many times ask what's wrong with their question and then it is much easier for me to explain nicely.

0
15

While agreeing with all that has been said so far, I would just add a small point that no one seems to have focused on: distinguish between voting and speaking.

Do the former. Don't do the latter.

When someone asks a question that should not have been asked, voting is fine, voting to close is fine. What is not fine is saying why you're doing that. Because, after all, what you'd like to say, educational as it you may think it, is just what you're not permitted to say. Moreover, it draws attention to you personally, and that's not going to do you any good.

I think our biggest stumbling block in our attempts to help curate the site is the urge to make things better by trying to teach people what they should do to ask better questions. Suppress that urge. If you don't have neutral boilerplate that you can paste in for a particular situation, just remain silent.

Remain silent. Those two words, alone, have kept me going through the feelings of despair. I cannot make Stack Overflow better; the powers that be have ignored all my suggestions about raising the bar for low-rep users to earn the right to ask questions, and telling users what the problem is, is just going to make them angry or hurt and isn't going to educate them or anyone else.

So now I mostly just do my duty and walk away quietly, continuing the search for a question worthy of my ability to answer. I don't feel like a voice crying in the wilderness, because I don't use my voice that much any more.

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  • 4
    "what you'd like to say, educational as it you may think it, is just what you're not permitted to say." This only happens because of the emotional aspect. With a better mindset, educational things can be said; and IMO they should be said. After all, some users do come back, and it's better that they know what to do next time. May 27, 2022 at 1:13
  • 6
    What are we not permitted to say? I vote to close most new questions in [java], but I always leave a comment suggesting improvement or debugging steps the user could take (unless its a straight duplicate)
    – tgdavies
    May 27, 2022 at 1:32
  • 1
    If one finds themselves voting for reasons that are not fine to say, perhaps it is time to consider whether the vote is not fine either. The anonymity of voting is not there to mask misdeeds. If one is unsure how to give appropriate feedback, perhaps it is better to slow down and learn that instead of doing appropriate actions with an inappropriate internal narrative. May 27, 2022 at 7:33
  • 4
    As a prolific commenter, I should probably heed this advice more; but leaving a comment is often also a good way to help someone, if only to help them understand how the site works, or where to look for existing questions about their topic.
    – tripleee
    May 27, 2022 at 9:06
  • 8
    Silently down-voting or close-voting often leaves users confused and unhappy. The advice they get from the help built into the site is often... not great. I leave a lot of constructive comments and get surprising little unwanted attention from it. I fully support the use of canned comments for common situations. I also support holding your tongue if you can't be nice or constructive. For me, the time to shut up is when somebody replies to me in a way that is argumentative. Letting others have the last word is better than getting involved to the point where I can no longer be constructive. May 27, 2022 at 12:11
  • 2
    "the urge to make things better by trying to teach people what they should do to ask better questions." - very valuable point. And the reason is, you can't teach a transient community. You can yell at each new person, but the number of newcomers is essentially infinite, so yelling just creates a lot of noise and doesn't fix anything. May 30, 2022 at 12:16
14

If you're tempted to use rude wording in comments under "stupid" questions, that's a sign of burn-out, but you haven't actually done anything toxic yet unless you actually post comments that make people feel stupid for asking.

(I sometimes find myself editing the word "obviously" out of things I write, except when it actually does follow obviously from an earlier point I made.)

But I want to help people who are looking to gain knowledge and want to be constructively criticised.

Have you considered answering questions on https://codereview.stackexchange.com/? Many of the people you'd like to be helping don't actually need help most of the time, because they know how to use a search engine and read, and respect other humans' time enough not to even ask before making a serious attempt.

For most people, that often succeeds, often thanks to the existing repository of stuff on Stack Overflow.

I'd recommend Code Review specifically because you mentioned "constructive feedback". It sometimes happens that you can point out related things that someone could improve in an example in an SO question, but Code Review is literally about that. So it can be a nice breath of fresh air to look at an occasional cr.SE question at least; I tend to only visit when I see them on Hot Network Questions, but have answered occasionally. And participated in comments, sometimes being able to answer something someone was wondering about. The overall quality of answers there is very high, too, so it's nice to read them.

6
  • Best Advice from all Answers (about 'Code Review'), I'll give it a "Try" for myself also..., I've been using the S-Word from time to time, since 8 or 10 years, so maybe I've had a "Burn-out" all this time... (But I'm the only Mod on the Tech Forum (where I don't have to "be nice") for the ProgLang for the small Tag I answer on this Site, and I usually soften my "angry/ugly" first Replies a few hours later or the next day, my "Motivation" is still to help Users... And sometimes being "toxic" (or "not nice") is the Best Way to help them...)
    – chivracq
    May 27, 2022 at 5:18
  • @chivracq: Yeah, I'm not sure my "make them feel stupid for asking" is really synonymous with "toxic". Perhaps an "unnecessarily"? When I first wrote this answer, I'd included "intentionally make them feel stupid", but someone can be toxic unintentionally when that wasn't their goal, I think. Depending on exactly what meaning you give it; it's not synonymous with "unwelcoming". (It's a worse offense if it's intentionally belittling someone, though.) May 27, 2022 at 5:28
  • 5
    Anyway yeah, some questions are garbage, and I'm not saying you have to sugar-coat anything, but there's a difference between "this post is off topic because x y z, and you haven't given anyone enough information to help you". vs. "you should have known better" - even though that's true, it's not usually helpful to say it that way. People don't internalize that message from strangers on the internet that they didn't already respect. May 27, 2022 at 5:29
  • 5
    @chivracq The kind of people who post seriously garbage questions that expect mind-reading (or are just gimme-the-code questions) usually have a large enough sense of entitlement to see high-rep users opposing them as enemies / gate-keepers, not people to be respected. And in their next question will include something like "don't downvote me or close this, my question wasn't answered" or such nonsense. May 27, 2022 at 5:48
  • Yep, + the "have to be nice" on SO... On "my" Forum (but on SO also), I just put a Reply/Comment with stg like "Meet my Quality (+ Follow-up) Criteria", ... and they always comply after a few days when nobody else has tried to help them, ... or they get angry because they refuse to mention 3 Versions about their Env and call me "all names", but boah..., I like collecting "moron" in as many Languages as possible, ah-ah...! // "Mind Reading" is usually not a Pb in my Tag but answering is as it quickly requires a nD Matrix of if/else with 'n' starting at 6 or 8...
    – chivracq
    May 27, 2022 at 6:09
  • 1
    Some positive Feedback indeed about 'Code Review', after some "semi-quick" look...: The Quality of Threads/Qt's is indeed "pretty decent", and even from 1-Rep Users, I was surprised to notice, and the Qt's are "broader" and more "brain challenging" than on SO, often about Algorithmic/Optimisation/Performance, and don't require finding some canonical "Read the Documentation and/or search the Site, your Qt has already been asked and answered..." like "too often" on SO... => Good Advice indeed...!
    – chivracq
    May 27, 2022 at 14:48
13

(Warning: I don't generally take my own advice here! I really should, since I find your complaint very relatable.)

There are other ways to contribute to the site. The review queues don't involve leaving comments, for example.

More importantly, you've probably noticed that duplicates are a mess - historically, lots of good canonical duplicates either weren't identified, or haven't been consistently used, cluttering the search results. In other cases, the canonical exists but is hard to find because of how the question is phrased. You can help by:

  • editing old questions to re-title them and give them more general applicability;

  • voting to delete inferior old versions of a question and/or close them as duplicates of the best one (not necessarily the oldest);

  • writing new candidate canonicals and answering them yourself (and then doing the other cleanup, taking advantage of the new, higher-quality canonical).

None of these things involve directly interacting with newly-asked, bad questions (unless you decide to try closing them as duplicates). I find that the temptation to write something unfriendly evaporates the moment I realize that the intended listener has been out of the room for perhaps literally years.

Of course, it helps to become a SME and get a gold badge related to a particular tag, so that you can wield the dupe-hammer :)

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  • 4
    About the gold tag hammering: hanging out in the appropriate chat rooms can get you vital help both for hammering and feedback on canonicals. Getting others involved like this can also take away the pressure of being a lone wolf that occasionally receives flak for curation activities. May 27, 2022 at 7:24
  • 6
    If someone is burnt out from the low-quality questions and answers on this site, then I would not recommend going for the review queues. I think that will only make the burn out worse, as it will purposely confront you with more low-quality stuff... May 27, 2022 at 11:10
  • 1
    "The review queues don't involve leaving comments", you should maybe mention which Queues you mean, because with (only) 0.5k-Rep myself, I "only" have Access to the "First Questions" + "Low Quality" + "First/Late Answers" Queues and those Queues nearly require leaving Comments for most Questions as there is only a "Looks OK" Button and no "Doesn't look OK" or "Low Quality" Button...
    – chivracq
    May 27, 2022 at 15:31
  • @MarkRotteveel I get that, but quality is low almost everywhere that a useful contribution could be made - that's why help is needed. Someone who hangs out in the high-quality parts of the site is someone who primarily uses the site for reference and also has a fair bit of good luck with search engines. May 27, 2022 at 18:39
11

Do less.

Or, to quote the advice given about all review queues, skip is always a valid option.

You do not actually have to participate in any of the moderation activities on the site. Yes, the site needs the help but no one wants you to burn out.

If you don't want to stop participating entirely, consider just taking a break from moderation activities for a while. Look for good questions you feel are worth your time to answer and skip everything else. See if actually doing the thing you came here to do restores some of your motivation.

3
  • 2
    "Look for good questions you feel are worth your time to answer and skip everything else" -> funny you should say that because that's a vicious circle. In trying to find such a question you will have to plow through mountains of administrative work.
    – Gimby
    May 27, 2022 at 13:08
  • Yep, I agree with @Gimby 's Remark... The most "depressing" Experience on SO is reviewing 50 or 100 Qt's from the "First Questions" Review Queue...
    – chivracq
    May 27, 2022 at 15:08
  • @Gimby But you don't actually have to do the administrative work. Don't vote. Don't go to the queues. You don't even have to look at any new questions. The search allows you to limit questions by score, creation date, and whether or not they've been closed.
    – BSMP
    May 29, 2022 at 0:54
11

Not your fault, and you certainly aren't toxic. I can relate though, it is hard to watch this place degrade because of a lack of action.

The main problem here is that everyone can recognize problem questions, however our tools for removing some of the most poignantly problematic questions were taken away.

To be clear, those questions are the ones which transform the community into a job shop.

Without an exact reason to close them with, often those questions will fester. Seeing it happen can be a little troubling. Often, they just get close voted with something, anything, and in that moment, you have gamed the system. It may lead to a belief of toxicity, but really it is just that our tools are lacking.

There is some momentum lately, with regards to updating close reasons... but it seems slow, and unlikely to yield anything of value. If it takes a year to change a few words in a single close reason, then this overall problem isn't going to ever get resolved.

The close reasons need an overhaul, it is written all over the place at this point.

8

I want to help people who are looking to gain knowledge and want to be constructively criticised. But a majority of the questions are just bad.

That is the core of the issue. You want to achieve something meaningful and fun, but you realize that you cannot do that here because there are too many people with different interests, who are engaging the site in a different manner.

You don't really want to curate if curation means endless downvote or close vote orgies on very low quality content and it has become impossible to find promising questions without a very large overhead of searching within lots of not very promising questions. This is not fun for you and probably also not much fun for many others (e.g., for me neither).

People only do that work because it helps to achieve a greater goal and because minor quality problems are understandable, but only up to a certain extent, where the reward is still seen as exceeding the costs. Nobody actually wants to look at lots of bad content by itself.

If only there was a better way to filter content on Stack Overflow by quality criteria that would not involve insane amounts of reading and clicking and typing during the search. I certainly would be involved more if only there was an automatized way to identify good questions. But there is none and that's why we are completely at the mercy of the askers to deliver good quality questions and perform thorough research in the first place. And there seems no good way of convincing askers to invest more of their own time either.

I'm not very optimistic there and expect diminishing return of answering and curation on Stack Overflow in the future. And I recommend you to reduce your invested time here accordingly. Reduce those activities that you find most annoying first and then see how it goes and continue from there. Maybe a miracle happens and Stack Overflow becomes manageable again. I don't want to give up hope completely.

You personally must come to a state where your reward (the fun that you get out of the site) is larger than the cost (the time and energy you invest in it). Then there is no risk of becoming toxic because you have the feeling of losing/not doing enough meaningful contributions.

Please don't think that a potential failure of Stack Overflow is on you. It's on the question askers spamming the site with low quality contributions and on the platform owners not finding the right way to deal with that.

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