52

Reviving this topic again, but asking from a moderator's perspective: About promotional group accounts

If an account was brought to our attention (flagged) for being shared by multiple individuals (like a "company" account to answer questions about their product or service), should the onus be on elected moderators to delete such accounts for being against the Terms of Service or should we escalate it to the Community Managers?

Assuming these accounts do not fall foul of other rules (no spammy content, has proper disclosure of affiliations to external links and resources), would a moderator proactively "seeking" out such accounts, notifying them, and deleting the account be beneficial, or should we only handle shared accounts only if they are flagged by the community?

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  • 2
    I'm assuming this doesn't include chatbot accounts?
    – Emanresu a
    Mar 8, 2022 at 8:19
  • 16
    Would the answer change if the account is linked to a collective?
    – Sayse
    Mar 8, 2022 at 9:21
  • 32
    I suppose my counter-question, to the moderators, is do you think that proactively seeking out such accounts (that aren't falling foul of other rules) is a good use of your moderating time, when you could be resolving flags from the community? Would such seeking such accounts also reduce the amount of time you get to use the site as a "normal" user and contribute questions and answers (which I feel is just as an important part of your time)?
    – Thom A
    Mar 8, 2022 at 9:27
  • 13
    What could be valid reasons for using a shared account? I can come up with one; a company answering questions about a library/tool/framework which is a tag on Stack Overflow and they use one account to have that account to provide the "official answer". In such cases it would be harsh to just delete the account, if they are acting as good citizens of course.
    – Gimby
    Mar 8, 2022 at 9:38
  • 3
    As for escalating to Community Managers, if the account isn't doing any "harm" (again, not falling foul of other rules) then going to a CM seems more appropriate; they can reach out the to the account and explain a better solution. If they are falling foul of other rules, then a quicker response would likely be better received by the community as a whole.
    – Thom A
    Mar 8, 2022 at 9:39
  • 3
    I think that's the exact reason, @Gimby . But when the account is deleted, their content doesn't go with them. The point, however, is that multiple people using the same account is against the ToS, so it doesn't matter if the account appears to be a single "good citizen", it's isn't one.
    – Thom A
    Mar 8, 2022 at 9:42
  • 2
    Could you please clarify what the problem is with these kind of accounts, more precisely? Are they promotional/spammy? Do they come with voting irregularities like up-voting content from other employers of that company?
    – Lundin
    Mar 8, 2022 at 9:43
  • 3
    @Larnu true but it might imply that the ToS is a tad too strict
    – Gimby
    Mar 8, 2022 at 9:50
  • 34
    One thought, @Lundin , do you really want a new employee at a company, that has never used Stack Overflow, immediately getting all the privileges of a 1k, 5k, 10k etc, account, just because they have access to the company Stack Overflow account? Earning privileges is a "reward" for contributing, but also it is therefore assumed you know how to make use of those privileges because you have earned the needed reputation; such users would not have and so could easily misuse such privileges. Imaging if completely new users could edit posts without going through the review queue. *shivers*
    – Thom A
    Mar 8, 2022 at 9:55
  • 10
    @Lundin it is likely a problem because "shared" accounts explicitly violate the section 5. User Obligations of the public platform ToS that requires all accounts to be individual. So it is more of a procedural issue rather than one of actual harm, methinks. Mar 8, 2022 at 10:02
  • 3
    @Braiam not sure where you read it from my comment that it would imply issues with multiple accounts - those comply with section 5 by definition - they are all individual accounts, just belonging to the same individual and, provided they abide by the rules, they are not in voilation of any term. Mar 8, 2022 at 10:32
  • 2
    @Dharman no, we send an escalation. They do get promptly deleted though since it's one of the highest priority tickets CMs handle. Mar 8, 2022 at 11:42
  • 7
    @Dharman Users who are identified as being under 13 years old are not like other violations of the ToS. How to handle users who are under 13 years old is a legal requirement imposed by US law (primary concern of SO, which is a US based company) and the laws of other countries. It is a substantially different situation than most other violations of the ToS.
    – Makyen Mod
    Mar 8, 2022 at 13:39
  • 6
    Disallowing multiple people using the same account is a convenient way of banning account piloting. aka, giving someone access to your account so that they can earn it rep. A company sharing an account amongst it's employees has the same problem: The rep earnings of multiple people are being aggregated among a single account, giving that account reputation, and the appearance of being trusted, that not one of the members piloting the account have actually earned. Regardless of what good they are doing for the community, they could also do so with individual accts.
    – Kevin B
    Mar 8, 2022 at 16:14
  • 2
    How common of a problem actually is this, @Samuel ? Do Moderators/CMs keep figures of how many accounts are banned/deleted due to multiple individuals contributing on the same account? How many of these are being used as a "Service Account" by a company (or product)? Do you also record how many of these don't fall foul of other issues? The fact that you suggest seeking such accounts out suggests that it is a common problem, and that it needs to be better combated.
    – Thom A
    Mar 8, 2022 at 16:47

9 Answers 9

49

This is going to be a very blunt response for something that's relatively minor.

Follow the ToS. If the ToS explicitly forbids users with shared accounts, then they should be removed, even if they're innocuous.

If this is making a mountain out of a molehill, revise the ToS and require that the company be explicit about what they intend for shared accounts to the maximum enforceable extent.

10
  • Definitely just follow ToS. If it is against the rules, deletion should be easy. Perhaps there should be an escalation if the account has a lot of activity, so that CM's can review and examine if other accounts were interacting, so they can be deleted as well for rule violations.
    – Travis J
    Mar 8, 2022 at 18:17
  • 34
    My thinking is, perhaps, a bit less blunt. I would only delete such accounts if they were brought to my attention for actually causing problems. I would never go actively searching for accounts that were contributing positively, despite being shared by multiple users and therefore technically violating the ToS. I would hope and expect that other moderators not do this, either. Flags pointing out "this account is shared by multiple users and violates the ToS" should be reviewed, like all flags, by applying a moderator's judgment toward our ultimate principle of making the site a better place. Mar 9, 2022 at 5:45
  • 2
    But is responsibility of moderators to enforce said ToS? The agreement doesn't say so.
    – Braiam
    Mar 9, 2022 at 14:52
  • 12
    Expanding off what Cody said: this bit in the ToS is not meant to be a hard rule. It is meant to provide us, the company, extra protection when these accounts do cause problems (as they often do) and action is taken against them, to be able to point at it and say "you agreed not to do this." We generally do not give the slightest care in the world about multiple users on one account if it never causes any on-site problems. The behavior is more important here.
    – animuson StaffMod
    Mar 9, 2022 at 17:36
  • Surmising from the above @animuson, it doesn't sound like this is explicitly forbidden as long as the account plays nice. So then it would be beneficial to get clarity into the ToS to establish what is and is not acceptable shared account usage.
    – Makoto
    Mar 9, 2022 at 19:04
  • @CodyGray: That's a sensible approach, which is why I described my thinking as more blunt. In all honesty though, normal users who see "someone" sharing multiple accounts don't get the leisure to process things that finely and they may not know that this is or isn't a thing that gets shrugs from the moderation team, so knowing what is and isn't acceptable is probably better to avoid all ambiguity. But that's my perspective on it; I just like to avoid the temptation to guess when faced with ambiguity, that's all.
    – Makoto
    Mar 9, 2022 at 19:06
  • 3
    @CodyGray: Exactly. So here's an advice to users sharing a single account : don't break the law while you're breaking the law! Mar 9, 2022 at 20:32
  • That's a pretty good blunt answer. In the case where a company does have an interest in supporting a library, etc. that is a [tag]. Why not just limit the posts to responses to questions bearing that tag? I'm not advocating one way or another, but from reading through the comments, that would seems the only legitimate reason one account would be shared. If the ToS is amended to allow it as a restricted account limited to responses to that tag and affirmatively identifying the account as a "tag-account" that would mitigate most concerns (just what popped into my head -- food for thought) Mar 10, 2022 at 6:09
  • 3
    @animuson thanks for that. Although, if they are causing other issues, why not codify those instead?
    – Braiam
    Mar 10, 2022 at 12:31
  • I think the points made by Cody and animuson were perfectly taken into account in advance by this answer's last paragraph: if the ToS say it is a violation, but mods and staff say it is not, then revise the ToS.
    – walen
    Mar 11, 2022 at 7:29
21

I'm summarising several of my comments into an answer here. Firstly I think the moderator needs to ask themselves: "Is actively seeking accounts that are used by multiple users (such as by a company to provide support) a good use of my time if the account is not actively breaking other rules?" And as a follow on question "Does it impact the amount of time I can contribute as a 'normal' user?" (which I personally feel is just as an important part of a moderator's time, as they are still as much a user as a moderator).

If the answer to the first question is no (or the latter yes) then I don't think that said moderator should be actively seeking for these accounts that don't break any other rules. The time moderators spend time moderating is (for lack of better words) a valuable resource, and if that use of time isn't productive then it's not a good use of that resource. Flags can take awhile to be handled already (this is not meant as a slur on the moderator team) and if resolving those flags is going to be a better use of the moderators time, then I feel this is a much better use of the moderators time.

This, of course, is not true for accounts that are shared by people are breaking other rules. Such accounts probably make themselves "known" more easily though, as likely to suffer flags from savvy community members too, so this hopefully is a problem that more or less solves itself.

As for escalating to the Community Managers, again, if the account the moderator finds isn't breaking any other rules, and the quality of the content they are contributing are good quality (or at least not awful) then going to a CM seems like a good idea. The CM can contact the account and/or company, discuss why what the actions they are doing are against the ToS, and hopefully arrange a better solution with said company; this will hopefully not drive the company away and they will find a method to provide support for their customers (via SO) that is within the ToS. This is a win win. If, of course, the account is other breaking rules, or the quality of the content is distinctly poor, then mod intervention may be best, at least in the short term.

My comments are not also suggesting that such accounts should be allowed. They should not for various reasons; yes, they are against the ToS (that's an easy reason). Such an account, if used well, is likely to receive reputation and privileges. Privileges grant people more features on the site, but also come with the assumption that the person with said privileges knows how the site works. If an account is shared, a new employee could get access to an account with 500, 2k, 5k or even 10k reputation, and yet they have never used Stack Overflow or another site in the community. These people can most certainly do far more harm as they don't know what they are doing. Perhaps they will (mis)use close votes, perhaps they'll make edits to questions that directly conflict with the authors intent (though make it "better" as a support like question) but their revision doesn't go to the queue. Perhaps one of the users just constantly provide low quality content, copy pasta's answers from a list of responses, or worse plagiarises from other sources, but other users maintain enough positive responses that it doesn't cause an answer ban. Individuals should be rated on the quality of their content, not the company's.

If such accounts are a common, but also problematic issue, then perhaps a should be made specifically for company accounts, that operate differently to individual users. Perhaps these accounts can earn limited privileges, such as never being able to edit without review and can't earn the VTC privilege, but can also always comment in a tag they are affiliated with (this answer is not a place to "solutionise" this, if you really think it's a good idea, comment and ask me to post it as a (or upvote an existing comment if it does already exist)).

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    "These people can most certainly do far more harm as they don't know what they are doing." That seems an argument to remove privileges, since there are many >100k users that don't seem to know how the site actually works.
    – Braiam
    Mar 8, 2022 at 11:04
  • 3
    I was, personally, thinking more, that if this is a problem, that a new account type would be needed, @Braiam , where certain privileges can't be earned. I didn't want to "solutionise" would a [feature-request] here though.
    – Thom A
    Mar 8, 2022 at 11:06
  • 4
    "The time moderators spend time moderating is (for lack of better words) a valuable resource" - No, well said indeed. I think you just succinctly captured what everyone feels whenever there is another "make mods patrol and cleanup millions of posts" feature request.
    – Gimby
    Mar 8, 2022 at 13:29
  • 2
    I think this answer covers the nuance nicely. My main fear in just making these accounts disappear is that we could lose otherwise good content. The breaking of the individual account rule aside, I'd prefer these accounts live or die by the content they produce, like everyone else on the site does, rather than by this rule, if no other abuse is going on.
    – zcoop98
    Mar 8, 2022 at 16:31
  • 2
    If the account is deleted, the content doesn't go with it, @zcoop98 . I must admit, I don't know how common this actual problem is, but the more i think about it, the more I begin to think that "company accounts" or something similar (maybe the ability for individuals to impersonate a company account, so that the quality can be rated against an individual?) would be an appropriate solution here. If we give people that want to use such accounts a solution that is within the ToS then they don't need to break the ToS.
    – Thom A
    Mar 8, 2022 at 16:33
  • @Larnu I guess you're right about the deleted content; I was thinking the content might disappear like content of spam accounts does, but I don't see a reason as to why that would be applied here necessarily. I also really like your point; it does depend on how widespread this is, but if there's a demand for it, then a new account type would probably solve this really nicely.
    – zcoop98
    Mar 8, 2022 at 16:36
  • If moderators are expected to keep track of edit wars for "Thanks in advance", I don't see how this is asking too much of them as the level of severity for breaking the rules at an account level has much more impact than rudimentary flags.
    – Travis J
    Mar 8, 2022 at 18:18
  • It's more of a point of Ilis it constructive or "better" use of their time, when they could be doing other moderator "things" @TravisJ . Some flags, especially custom flags, can take days or weeks to be resolved.
    – Thom A
    Mar 8, 2022 at 18:22
  • I for one would welcome more oversight on account level abuses, aside from solely examining those involved which upvoting.
    – Travis J
    Mar 8, 2022 at 18:25
  • Even if content stays, its status of official answer won't. A correct answer might be overlooked in the future, decreasing it usefulness, because would you follow deleted user9345737345 advice to edit some bytes in dll file? Mar 9, 2022 at 14:12
  • 1
    Personally, I tend to look at the vote count and the content of the post (Does it explain the solution? Does it explain why the OP's attempt doesn't work? Does it provide a full working sample?) not the user, @Revolver_Ocelot . There are many reasons an account can be deleted; breaking the ToS is one of many.
    – Thom A
    Mar 9, 2022 at 14:14
  • 1
    @Revolver_Ocelot it might come as a surprise, but yes, I would, so would many others - it's never been about users, it's always been about the content. And if someone bases the assumption about post quality on a username, frankly, it's a user's problem, not ours. Mar 9, 2022 at 14:15
  • Questions about small relatively unknown products are very often attract little traffic. It is not unusual to see a question created by new user without a single vote and with a single answer without a single vote or checkmark. Is this answer correct? Did asker never returned to the site? Did he just don't vote or mark helpful answer? With answer coming from product developer, there is at leas certain degree of trust. Perharps, an indefinete ban would be better in this case? Mar 9, 2022 at 14:19
19

TL;DR These accounts should be deleted if found.

A major problem with allowing multiple individuals to share an account (even within a company) is that it breaks the voting and privileges model. This holds true regardless of whether the account is doing "bad things" or not.

In principle, reputation is supposed to measure how trusted an individual is by a community. If that account is shared by multiple people (even within a company) there's no guarantee that each individual is equally trustworthy. In fact, assuming that multiple people have made positive contributions that outweigh any negative contributions from other users, no one who uses the account is as trusted as the account as a whole.

Suppose that an account has 4k reputation, and is shared by 4 individuals from the same company. If each individual contributed equally, you have 4 individuals who actually have 1k rep controlling an account with 4k rep (which confers, among other things, close vote privileges, which none of the individual users have enough site experience to use properly). An even worse situation is when one or more individuals contributed unequally, or when a new individual is added to that account. In that case, you could have individuals with little to no site experience wielding high-level privileges and appearing to be trusted by the community (when in reality they're not).

This is not mitigated by training or simply trusting the companies not to abuse the privileges. There's really no substitute for having actual site experience as proven by making positive contributions over time.

Also, there's much less point in having company accounts when that's what collectives are for now.

10

I don't actively seek accounts that are at odds with the ToS; I do suspend or terminate accounts that are afoul of the ToS, if I discover that they are on the wrong side of it during the course of investigating other things.

Like any other violation of the rules, if it was clearly deliberate and I can't begin to put together a case for good-faith use of the site, then there's no sense in leaving the account around.

If it's someone's fledgling company and they're just off on the wrong foot I'll send a helpful message or two and probably just a light suspension.

We enforce community guidelines that aren't a part of the ToS as well, like patterns of crowd-sourcing every task you have during the day until you completely exhaust a chatroom full of people, too - so I try not to go by where it's written, but what's the problem being caused and where did we encounter that before?

I think there's more nuance than just to delete or not to delete, although, that is pretty much the basic premise as we'd experience it while working through the "other" or perhaps even more notoriously the duplicate answers filter.

8

I found this meta question which seems to cover this situation:

My reading of that Q&A is that this kind of thing is not allowed. But that is just my opinion.

If you have doubts as to the (real) policy, or if you don't think it is your role to enforce this kind of thing, you should escalate this to the Community Managers.

  • It is not "your call" to make policy decisions about how the Terms of Service should be applied. (At least, I assume it isn't. It wouldn't make sense to me if it was.)

  • It is certainly not our (the communities) call to decide. And I doubt that we would have the background needed.

On the point of "they are doing no harm". That is really beside the point. It is up to Stack Exchange to decide that ... either on a case by case basis, or by giving the Moderators some guidelines on how to deal with it. Probably the former is easier.

Consider this: Stack Exchange could be in the middle of negotiating some arrangement with the organization involved. In that scenario, its would not be a good thing if Stack Overflow Moderators jumped in and started closing down shared accounts.

If you are not sure .... escalate it.

5
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    I disagree that a democratically elected community moderator is somehow in less of a position to decide things than an employee of a company. What makes the employee somehow better equipped to make the decision? The fact that some hiring committee decided they are qualified? In the case of moderators, the community has spoken that this person is qualified to represent their interests. The fact that Stack Exchange may have business interests is none of the community's concern. Mar 8, 2022 at 16:14
  • eh, no, the community spoke that that person is qualified to handle exceptions.
    – Kevin B
    Mar 8, 2022 at 16:19
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    @IanCampbell While it is arguably the case that "the fact that Stack Exchange may have business interests is none of the community's concern", it potentially remains very much the concern of the company itself. A possible scenario where it might matter to the company was described in the answer. To be clear, is it your position that moderators need not consider the potential business impact of their decisions, because that's what I gather from your comment.
    – skomisa
    Mar 8, 2022 at 17:58
  • @Ian - Casting flags which are handled through the same communication channel as they were raised doesn't really indicate that moderators are capable of making corporate level decisions. Moreover, no community members should be interpreting the rules for their own convenience or interests. Rules are not in place to be suggestions.
    – Travis J
    Mar 8, 2022 at 18:23
  • 2
    @IanCampbell community (and elected moderators) can decide on site's policy (i.e. "editing titles of the posts is not allowed to anyone but OP" or "people editing in thank you notes will be banned from editing") but ToS is set and managed by the company providing the service. We can provide some input to the company but... impact may not be much. Mar 9, 2022 at 3:23
5

First I'd suggest a slight rewording of the question: accounts shared by multiple individuals.

As others have discussed in the comment section, it is against Stack Exchange's ToS to share an account among multiple individuals, so it seems perfectly fine to handle accordingly, if you (mods) want to play by the book.

However, it is my intuition that this exact case has nothing inherently wrong other than sharing among people. Think it like a company being a "legal entity" that handles liabilities on its own. As long as the account holder (the "entity") is contributing positively and not abusing any privileges, the existence and usage of such an account poses no direct threat to the community.

If a company decides to share Internet accounts among its employees, it is their responsibility to educate them on how to use the accounts properly, or to avoid misuses. This has always been the case for, like, PR-related accounts such as a company Facebook or Twitter account. (And yes, there's the argument that misuses of PR accounts on social media happen every day, which I'll readily accept.) If we were to discover any misuse or abuse of such accounts, then we can (and certainly should) handle it case-by-case, as with an account on any other platform than Stack Exchange.

Finally, moderators' roles and tasks are to keep the community and its content in order. If such accounts are not actively causing objective trouble, I do not see it a good use of mods' time to seek them out and take overly "precautionary" measures such as deleting them, which is causing too much harm to both sides (at least for us it's a loss of an active contributor).

If any steps must be taken, escalating these cases to CMs should be a good start. Unless this becomes a prevailing phenomenon that requires a general solution, the CMs are at a better position to discuss with the account owners a solution that satisfies both parties (SE and the insulting company).

1
  • 1
    I don't agree, even for the case of companies - having multiple people share the account breaks the privileges and reputation model (because if multiple people make positive contributions using the account, no one using the account has as much rep as the account as a whole does). Reputation is meaningless unless you know how much the individual actually writing the post contributed to that. Mar 9, 2022 at 15:25
5

If an account was brought to our attention (flagged) for being shared by multiple individuals (like a "company" account to answer questions about their product or service), should the onus be on elected moderators to delete such accounts for being against the Terms of Service or should we escalate it to the Community Managers?

If an account is reported to moderators and a moderator finds that it violates the Terms of Service (such that the violation calls for account deletion), then yes of course moderators should delete the accounts (or escalate to CMs if they deem that necessary). This seems like a standard moderator procedure: administer a standard punishment for a given infraction.

[...] would a moderator proactively "seeking" out such accounts, notifying them, and deleting the account be beneficial, or should we only handle shared accounts only if they are flagged by the community?

No, proactively seeking out shared accounts is not a particularly beneficial use of moderator time, unless all flag queues are at zero.

NB - Hopefully moderators don't actively look for accounts violating any rule right now. If any moderators are doing that, please stop and handle/escalate the existing flags in the flag queues.

8
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    Could you clarify what NB means? Mar 8, 2022 at 16:20
  • 7
    @Ian en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nota_bene
    – yivi
    Mar 8, 2022 at 16:21
  • 2
    Moderators are supposed to be exception handlers, not flag handlers. Just because the community raises an absurd level of tit for tat flags doesn't mean that moderators should be beholden to only the activity of responding to those.
    – Travis J
    Mar 8, 2022 at 18:19
  • 2
    @TravisJ It sounds like you are not aware of the "moderator" flag option, which is a free-text flag for exceptional situations that require moderator intervention.
    – TylerH
    Mar 8, 2022 at 21:48
  • 2
    I'm certain Travis is aware of the option. I think what he means is, just because a flag is raised by the community does not mean that any moderator is under an obligation to take action if they think that such action would make the site a worse place. If you flag an account that you believe to be shared by multiple users, but I see that that account has a history of stellar contributions, with no discernable infractions, then I am well within my rights to refuse to act on such a flag. If I were in a good mood, I'd mark it helpful but simply indicate no action needs to be taken at this time. Mar 9, 2022 at 5:49
  • 2
    @CodyGray I don't know how one could get "please handle flags a certain way (e.g. be sure to mark them all helpful)" from "please handle existing flags before seeking out more bad behavior". I'm a little confused by your reply; you are the one handling the exception here as the moderator, so how you handle flags is largely your prerogative, but you should certainly not just... let the flag sit, pending, just because you think there's no issue with what has been flagged. Are you saying you or other mods are doing that on a regular basis/as a regular practice?
    – TylerH
    Mar 9, 2022 at 14:42
  • 2
    Wow, no, I didn't say that at all. What I'm saying is, moderators aren't bound to enforce the Terms of Service in all cases, so while it is perfectly reasonable for an individual community member to flag something they perceive as a violation of the ToS, it is equally reasonable for a moderator in their judgment to decline to take any action, which would result in the flag being dismissed (either as helpful or not) without any action being taken. Honestly, I don't understand what was unclear in the original comment. Maybe someone else will have an easier time explaining it. Mar 9, 2022 at 17:51
  • @CodyGray dismissing a flag because you don't think any action needs to be taken is still "handling" it. My concern is about the ones left in "pending" (which I know includes many that take a long time and/or CM escalation before they can be handled).
    – TylerH
    Mar 10, 2022 at 22:18
1

Should moderators delete accounts shared by multiple individuals?

Moderators should ask SE if they should deal with accounts that violate the ToS. The ToS is a legalese document from SE, and in no place of the moderator agreement says that moderators shall enforce ToS, only to follow it, and the ToS doesn't say anything at all about community elected moderators.

So, to answer the question: should moderators delete accounts that violate ToS? No, unless it's specifically asked for by SE.

Should moderators look for violations of ToS? Again, no, unless specifically asked for by SE.

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    Rudeness is also a ToS violation. I'd expect mods to handle those. Mods definitely should enforce the ToS where necessary and within their jurisdiction: "Stack Overflow is a community and we expect you to treat each member of the Stack Overflow community with respect. (source)"
    – Cerbrus
    Mar 9, 2022 at 15:43
  • 1
    Rudeness is a CoC violation. While similar, coc violations tend to elicit warnings, where as tos violations may directly lead to more direct/permanent action.
    – Kevin B
    Mar 9, 2022 at 15:46
  • 1
    Yeah, but rudeness is usually brought to mods attention, or something that none of us would overlook even if we were busy. It's not really something we have to go out seeking. Not sure why Braiam's answer here was downvoted as much. We frequently enforce guidelines that AREN'T in the UI / ToS too.
    – user50049
    Mar 9, 2022 at 16:53
  • 1
    Also, "If in doubt, don't .. or ask" is always a good option (especially when there's a standard blanket response already saying it's okay to do it).
    – user50049
    Mar 9, 2022 at 16:54
  • @Cerbrus Rudeness is also a CoC violation. Moderators don't need to go to ToS. The help center covers most of the issues that moderators have to deal with already, and they are pretty extensive. Keeping tabs on the ToS shouldn't be part of that.
    – Braiam
    Mar 10, 2022 at 12:25
  • This is what I came here to say. The ToS is a legal agreement between the user and the company. SO's legal team needs to be the one answering this particular question, not community members.
    – bta
    Mar 10, 2022 at 18:16
-21

Moderators should stray very clear of enforcing or actively seeking ToS violators, otherwise they put themselves into liability when they don't enforce it consistently (like accounts by minors), so I would like Mods to not actively seek these accounts or other ways of enforcing the ToS unless reported. Moderators should focus on actually impactful actions that reduce the overall quality of posts on the site, which normal users are unable to solve by their collective actions. That's what is expected of members of the community elected as moderators.

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    So, you're suggesting mods turn a blind eye to anything that isn't reported, and users shouldn't report anything unless it's an actual "problem", whatever the line there is...?
    – Cerbrus
    Mar 8, 2022 at 11:10
  • 2
    @Cerbrus I'm suggesting to actually focus on problems that affect the quality of the posts on the site. There are plenty of crap to take out for our entire lifetimes, these accounts aren't creating it (at least, that's not the argument that is put forward and no examples were provided that they do).
    – Braiam
    Mar 8, 2022 at 11:14
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    You're missing my point. The first line in this answer: "Moderators should stray very clear of enforcing or actively seeking ToS violators" You're suggesting mods shouldn't enforce the ToS, at all unless reported, are you not? Then what's the point of having moderators...
    – Cerbrus
    Mar 8, 2022 at 11:21
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    @Cerbrus yes, because they put themselves into liability when they don't enforce it consistently. It's a no win scenario where the value of the content the site is not improved and they became responsible for something that only actual employees should enforce. Moderators should focus more on problematic content and the users creating it, not on otherwise not problematic content and users that create them, like underage users. Do you want moderators to be actively seeking underage accounts?
    – Braiam
    Mar 8, 2022 at 11:23
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    I'm asking you if you're saying mods shouldn't handle ToS violations at all when they come across them. You're clear about mods looking for violations. You're unclear about mods finding violations by chance.
    – Cerbrus
    Mar 8, 2022 at 11:26
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    "unless the account is causing actual problems, don't bother reporting it." so if i see a user is 10 years old but not causing "problems" you don't want people to report it..? I strongly disagree with that sentiment. This is like saying "speeding is fine, provided you don't crash or cause anyone else to." Speed limits are there for a reason, and so are the terms of service. It doesn't matter if when you break those rules you don't impact others or not.
    – Thom A
    Mar 8, 2022 at 11:31
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    @Larnu why should I care if it's not causing problems for themselves or others? What's the reason why should act like holier-than-thou if there's no benefit for anyone for me to report it?
    – Braiam
    Mar 8, 2022 at 11:45
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    Storing PII of minors is causing (legal) problems for websites that do so, though. That's why you should report those accounts. But you'd rather turn a blind eye? As Samuel Liev just stated in a comment: "it's one of the highest priority tickets CMs handle."
    – Cerbrus
    Mar 8, 2022 at 11:52
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    Liability is maybe not the right word, but I do support the notion that inconsistent enforcement can have dire consequences. But it is perhaps also a little strong to state to never seek it out. The ToS covers severe and less severe infractions. The severe ones everyone should keep an eye out for, including the mods.
    – Gimby
    Mar 8, 2022 at 16:03
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    I think some people are getting tripped up on your phrasing, and may disagree about your example (accounts of minors), but I do agree with the spirit of your answer. I don't want moderators to be hunting for rule-breakers– I want them to be moderating, monitoring for issues. If they see an account which violates the rules, by all means handle the case– but I agree with you in that I don't like the idea of them actively searching out accounts in violation of nearly any rule if that account isn't otherwise causing active problems. Handle exceptions, don't hunt for them.
    – zcoop98
    Mar 8, 2022 at 16:28
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    Your guidance to keep rude/hate comments on the site is... interesting. Kind of hard to stand behind that suggestion. Mar 9, 2022 at 3:41
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    "like accounts by minors" - fun fact, mods don't handle that either. We escalate it to staff, who then handle it. We're not equipped to handle it anyway, considering a lot of data might have to be removed. Has nothing to do with consistency. We also don't enforce third party terms of service, because there's legal channels and, speaking for myself, I'm not competent enough to deal with legal takedowns (lucky us there's a department for it). Most mods aren't lawyers, so I imagine the majority, or at least a significant percentage of us don't. Though, unlike minors, we don't escalate takedowns.
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Mar 9, 2022 at 10:33
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    People with takedowns in flags or posts are told to contact SE. Whether they then do that is something we're not told because it's not our concern. That all said, we don't ignore stuff we stumble across just because it hasn't been reported. An attempt to actively search out and report accounts belonging to minors got shut down a whole ago, however, but not actively reporting !== only handle stuff that has been reported. That all said, there's really two kinds of ToS violations; there's the ones we can handle, and the ones we can't. Most of the stuff involving legal falls into the category
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Mar 9, 2022 at 10:33
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    of what we can't handle, because Reasons:tm:. On the other side of things, quoting the ToS: "Stack Overflow is a community and we expect you to treat each member of the Stack Overflow community with respect" -- by your logic, we shouldn't actively seek out rude comments. It's a clear CoC violation, and a ToS violation. The ToS also includes the acceptable use policy, which as a clause for spam. By your logic, we can't delete spam and destroy spammers unless someone flags it first.
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Mar 9, 2022 at 10:36
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    @ZoestandswithUkraine "fun fact, mods don't handle that either. We escalate it to staff" and that's exactly what I'm asking moderators to do. Do not enforce ToS, enforce the community rules. Leave ToS violators to actual employees.
    – Braiam
    Mar 9, 2022 at 14:45

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