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This morning I ran across a question where a member of the SO community commented their refusal to answer the question on the grounds that they will not help anyone from Russia.

Image of three comments: "Got the solution but boycotting Russia" - [name masked out]. "[name masked out]Why should I be responsible for the actions of my president? Why should I be rejected for all this when I'm under 18 and I just can't go to the rally? Do not engage in Russophobia, behave adequately." – [name masked out]. "Sorry about that, not helping you doesn't amuse me. You aren't responsible in this case and Ukranian children too. Don't take it personally, it's temporary. I'm not Russophobic, I just think that everyone has to block Russia in every way to stop Poutine. Good luck anyway." – [name masked out]

I flagged the comment as:

It's unfriendly or unkind.

Was this the correct thing to do? Does SO have a stance on politically motivated comments?

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  • 14
    Maybe relevant here is that there is almost no restrictions on political messages on the profile page and the user name, if I remember the discussion correctly. For example "XXX stands with Ukraine" seems to be a political comment that we are fine with. Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 13:57
  • 18
    As far as I'm concerned, the question "was this the correct thing to do?" doesn't depend on what SO's stance on politically motivated comments is; the question should just be: is the comment unfriendly or unkind? If you think it is, then per SO's policy, you should flag it as unfriendly or unkind whether or not it is politically motivated. Whether it is good to follow SO's policy in this matter is a separate issue, and that seems to be the contentious point in the debate here, but I don't see anyone arguing that SO's policy doesn't say to flag it if you think it's unfriendly or unkind.
    – kaya3
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 14:13
  • 13
    For this attitude to have any semblance of fairness, one would also need to always check the answerer's country before reading an answer from them, and refrain from reading it if they're from Russia. I doubt anyone's going to do that. :/ Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 14:16
  • 61
    @Trilarion Re "For example "XXX stands with Ukraine" seems to be a political comment that we are fine with" (in a profile or user ID): having that as a comment on your profile page, or your user ID, is qualitatively different to gratuitously posting to an individual that you won't help them because they are Russian. I'd note that the poster vocally refusing to help had absolutely nothing about Ukraine or Russia in their Profile. We are going down a very dangerous road if we permit rude and unkind comments to Russians on this board, and making a mockery of our "be nice" policy.
    – skomisa
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 21:25
  • 82
    Obviously, that comment is not helpful. It’s neither adding technical information nor suggesting improvements. In fact, it’s literally telling the questioner that there’s nothing they can do to convince the commenter to answer. So the only difference between the commenter just not answering and not answering but leaving the comment, is to make the questioner feel bad about it. We delete comments even for being just “obsolete”, but this comment, designated to make the addressee feel bad, is matching the “unfriendly or unkind” criteria 100%.
    – Holger
    Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 8:46
  • 23
    Nationalism, politics don't belong on a development-centric site. That also goes for "Black Lives Matter" of the Go language. If I was mod I'd delete/flag all such activity. Also, "we" are not at war, but even if we were such things would be unacceptable.
    – user17408941
    Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 15:24
  • 18
    After reading through the bulk of the discussions here, there's a lot that could be said, but the only thing I feel like adding is that I am deeply disappointed about how quick some are to justify (their or others') "othering" of users. It's deeply upsetting to me to see some people try to distort prejudice against users of any sort into some sort of a "good" thing. We all lose when people act against one another for things outside of their control; I don't know why it's so hard for some to see that.
    – zcoop98
    Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 20:28
  • 6
    First answer was both unfriendly & offtopic. Second one is just offtopic. Didn't need to comment at all if that is all he had to say. Good flag.
    – Tom Tom
    Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 2:31
  • 25
    btw, darn 5 mn window, politics asides, someone commenting "I have the answer but won't tell you" should at least be flagged for being unfriendly.
    – Tom Tom
    Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 2:37
  • 20
    If you are okay with this, please do feel free not to use answers written by Russian people. Just close your eyes and scroll on. Don't let a line of Russian-written code enter your codebase. Be sure to delete OSS written by Russians from your project's dependencies, just so we know you are not some hypocrites and your brave activism is not just for show.
    – vaultah
    Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 18:19
  • 8
    What really offends me about that post is the unnecessary smearing of a Canadian delicacy. Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 19:13
  • 4
    Yes, that's horribly unfriendly. The Russian people are a good an honest people just like anyone else and play no part in the asinine invasion by Putin into Ukraine. There are no politics between honest working men and women just trying to better themselves and provide for their family. (now if the questions was from Sergey Lavrov or Putin himself -- that may be appropriate...) Commented Mar 2, 2022 at 2:50
  • 4
    @Trilarion don't forget Russia has a firm grip on the media. The average Russian dude has no idea that it's actually an invasion.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 2, 2022 at 8:44
  • 3
    @Trilarion, I am not saying my profile picture has a significant impact, but I don't believe unfriendly comments give a good impression of what I stand for. Attention is nice, but the ends do not justify all means.
    – trincot
    Commented Mar 2, 2022 at 10:42
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    The whole discussion here is about whether or not it's acceptable to say "I'm not gonna help you because of <politics>". Anything we say about how to get that message across otherwise is, imho, off-topic.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 2, 2022 at 10:46

12 Answers 12

397

Yes, I would even say that you can use the "harassment, bigotry or abuse" flag. This is not an appropriate comment for Stack Overflow.

When answering questions, the person who authored the question doesn't matter. If the user is prejudiced against one nation or another, they should keep it to themselves. Nobody is forced to participate on Stack Overflow.

Comments that ostracize users based on their name, perceived nationality, or race are against our CoC. Such comments should be flagged and deleted. If a user shows repeated behaviour, a moderator must step in.

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    This doesn't sound like it has anything to do with prejudice. It's essentially one person trying to implement their own personal micro-sanctions against Russia. You might disagree with that person on, say, whether this is a sensible move, or whether it's appropriately targeted, or whether they should leave a comment about it, but it doesn't sound motivated by prejudice any more than the official sanctions. Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 12:03
  • 117
    @user2357112supportsMonica Feel free to disagree, but for me this is a similar stance to "I don't want to be in the same room with the person from Russia because I don't agree with Russian government's decisions and I think all Russian citizens are to blame for that"
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 12:07
  • 127
    @user2357112supportsMonica How could pre-judging the asker based on their nationality be anything other than prejudice? If they wished to withhold their answer, they could have done it silently. They have only shamed themselves. Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 12:16
  • 31
    This comment thread probably isn't the place for a long, philosophical debate, but what the commenter did is absolutely a micro-sanction, and I can't disagree with it, and I'm seriously considering doing the same in another context. Why should the Russian user be "held responsible"? Because he's from a state that is now and absolutely should be an international pariah. That he's not old enough to vote makes the situation less fair for him, but — just as every single last citizen of Ukraine is currently experiencing in an up-close and personal way — life isn't always fair. Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 12:24
  • 107
    @user2357112 & Steve, I am really worried about your attitude. This is how terrorism starts. People start hating people from other nations because they invade other countries and cause destruction and horror. In the past, a lot of nations started hating USA for invading other countries which led to hatred of their civilians (see 9/11 attacks for example). I don't condone violence and war, but for the same reason, I don't hate people from other countries for actions of their government. Hatred leads to violence and war.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 12:42
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    @Dharman: You're taking it as given that the people on the other side of this discussion from you are motivated by hatred. Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 12:50
  • 73
    The counterargument seems to boil down to "yes it's unfriendly but we shouldn't have to be friendly in this case". Well, the rules here say that you do have to be friendly. I don't see anyone taking the position that this comment actually is friendly to the Russian user in question.
    – kaya3
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 13:09
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    (I make no argument regarding whether this micro-sanction is a good idea. I'm just arguing that it's an attempt at a sanction, motivated similarly to the official sanctions, not an act of hate.) Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 13:19
  • 23
    How else would refusing to answer SO questions written by ordinary Russians have any effect on Vladimir Putin? The only way the boycotter's comment can achieve anything towards his stated goal of stopping Putin is if his comment encourages the Russian person to do more to work against Putin. This is not a presumption about the commenter's private motivations, it follows straightforwardly from what he wrote. And it is prejudicial because a person being Russian does not imply that they need encouragement in that regard. A good number of Russians are protesting, at great risk to themselves.
    – kaya3
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 13:54
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    A blanket refusal to provide Stack Overflow answers to Russians isn't all that different from a blanket refusal to buy gas from Russians, which is one of the sanctions major Ukrainian leaders have been pushing for. That one mostly hasn't happened because in the short term, it'd hurt the rest of the world more than Russia. Cutting off Stack Overflow answers to Russia could be a similarly motivated (but much less effective) attempt to hit the Russian economy. Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 14:23
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    I haven't seen anyone differentiate "because he's Russian" from "because he's currently in Russia", and the two seem to be used fairly interchangeably. To me, the former doesn't sound all that different from saying "because he's white" or "because he's a man": other things people have no choice about and can be unfairly mistreated over because of how others in that group act. It would be somewhat less objectionable to go with the latter (which can still be argued is unfair, but it's more in the spirit of sanctions). But that still doesn't make the comment appropriate for SO.
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 14:25
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    This answer alienates people by equating a political opinion with bigotry. Is that a CoC violation?
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 17:02
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    @jpmc26 If you want it to be a CoC violation to point out bigotry, then you seem to basically be asserting that you want to live in a world where no-one is allowed to criticise the harmful words or actions of anyone else. If you're happy to allow the harmful words and actions, then that position just wouldn't make any sense. If you want to disallow the harmful words and actions as well, then you're faced with the rather significant problem of being unable to discuss what is and isn't harmful, which removes the possibility of consensus and transparency from the moderation of harmful content.
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 17:19
  • 16
    @jpmc26 No, the CoC attempts to prevent people from causing harm to others. Pointing out potential harm in a reasonable way does not, and will never, fall into a sensible definition of that. This whole dance done by people who oppose ... being nice to others, I guess, where you try to assert an extension of those same considerations of being nice to mean people has always been fallacious and nonsensical.
    – NotThatGuy
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 17:40
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    @jpmc26 Yeah, this really isn't the place for you to go on this kind of tirade against tolerance and "lifestyles that were historically considered immoral" - presumably you are talking about me and a lot of my friends and family. Well, I don't tolerate people who think I shouldn't be tolerated on the basis of who I am, and I have no moral qualms whatsoever about not tolerating those people. Neither does the Stack Overflow community in general. So if your point is just to say, "you're intolerant of intolerance, gotcha!" as if that is any kind of insight, the answer is "yes, yes I am".
    – kaya3
    Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 8:48
166

To be blunt, I feel that this earlier answer covers the general CoC policy. To reiterate it: stating that you are intentionally not helping someone because of any perceived attribute about that person is bigotry, and is absolutely subject to being punished under the CoC. Flag any comments that do so.

There's a lot of people who are super-charged about the happenings in the world. I feel like there's a lot of frustration and a whole sense of "there must be something I can do about this," and there likely is—there's a host of things you can do to get involved in this effort. You should look to consult the appropriate authorities for suggestions: for instance, getting in touch with someone in your government to see if they have some suggestions would be a start.

But I'm quite disappointed that this needs to be reinforced here and now:

You don't get to "other" someone on Stack Overflow. Period.

If Stack Overflow Inc. decides to block certain nations from their site, that's some decision they get to make, but it's not something that we—who are bound by the CoC—get to "just do."

So this hot mess about "micro-sanctions" needs to be dealt with by a moderator in the most "give this person a wonderful time-out" fashion.

So… anyone who engages in behavior that actively others someone on the site—flag it as a violation of the CoC.

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    Exactly. I am amazed that anyone here feels entitled to make negative comments towards another poster on SO with the (bogus) arguments that it is somehow a "justifiable violation", or that it is not personal, or that it is not bigotry. None of us are free to ignore the CoC simply because we disagree with it.
    – skomisa
    Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 2:16
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    @skomisa Well then you have to first be amazed that people have not read the code of conduct and don't even know it exists.
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 13:44
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    Bigotry - "obstinate or unreasonable attachment to a belief, opinion, or faction". What is obstinate or unreasonable about a SO user boycotting Russian users? It may be against SO rules, you may disagree with it but it's not bigotry. Russia is an international pariah.
    – deep64blue
    Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 19:54
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    it is unreasonable to shame SO users simply because they are from or reside in Russia, regardless of what their country/government has done. Chances are you're only attacking someone who agrees with you but can't do anything about it.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 19:57
  • 36
    @AlanDev-boycottRussia: Boycotting is fine. Getting in someone's face and telling them "Nanana I know the answer but I'm not gonna give it to you because of where you're from" is petty, childish and bullying. In sort, a CoC violation.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 22:16
  • 37
    @AlanDev-boycottRussia: Go ahead and boycott them. But the instant you type something about that here on the Stack Exchange network, your comment will be subject to the CoC. That's the only contentious point I'm making here; you are absolutely under no obligation to engage with anyone for any reason, but the instant you do, your engagements are subject to the established code of conduct.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 22:22
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    "You don't get to 'other' someone on Stack Overflow. Period." Then you have to stop accusing people of bigotry.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 6:28
  • 27
    @jpmc26: That's not what "Othering" means. We can accuse thieves of being a thief. We can accuse bigots of bigotry. We can't accuse people form a specific country of being "less" than someone else. That is bigotry.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 8:39
  • 2
    @Cerbrus First, when you accuse someone bigotry, you are absolutely implying they are "less" than someone else. In modern Western culture, a bigot is considered to be so ignorant and evil that they deserve to be held in utter contempt. So yes, that's what you're doing. Secondly, the comment says nothing that implies that the question author is less than anyone. At most, it implies the Russian people are not fulfilling their responsibility to ensure their government remains just, which, if anything, implies they have worth by asserting they're capable of fulfilling that responsibility.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 2, 2022 at 2:32
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    @AlanDev-boycottRussia I appreciate how you left out the (very relevant) second half of the definition you quoted: "...in particular, prejudice against a person or people on the basis of their membership of a particular group" Commented Mar 2, 2022 at 4:28
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    @forresthopkinsa Well spotted! That piece of deceitful cherry picking deserves some kind of medal. In a way you have to admire the shamelessness of someone who finds a quote that completely refutes their argument, carefully elides the part that proves them wrong, and triumphantly posts the distortion that remains.
    – skomisa
    Commented Mar 4, 2022 at 0:11
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    @forresthopkinsa The second part of the definition is not relevant because the first part is violated. It is entirely reasonable to take action against a nation (including their citizens) as a whole when that country's leadership is invading another country merely to take possession of its land and resources. The citizens have failed to ensure they are led by just leaders in such a case, and so accountability is reasonable, even if you disagree with it. There's no cherry picking here, just focus on the aspect relevant to the question at hand.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 9, 2022 at 13:36
  • @Makoto "That's the only contentious point I'm making here..." Alan is contending with your claim that this is an example of bigotry, so your assertion that whether the comment is subject to the CoC is not the only contentious point. In fact, Alan doesn't seem to be challenging that point at all or even the notion that the comment should be deleted, only the classification of the comment as bigotry. He's probably doing so because throwing around claims of bigotry tends to create rage mobs.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Mar 9, 2022 at 13:40
130

Let's not forget that we're building a repository of Q&A for the community at large. Today one might be helping a Russian person get unstuck, tomorrow it might be someone else getting unstuck by the same question.

Ultimately, this resource is populated by volunteers, who will end up helping good and bad people alike, on their own will. If someone really doesn't want to answer questions from Russian askers due to the horrible actions of a dictator, that is their prerogative.

Still, two wrongs don't make a right. Flag such comments for removal.


All of this notwithstanding the various ways each of us can help in these troubled times. Take care when sharing information online; look for legitimate organizations to donate to; raise awareness to local entities that can bring some kind of change. These things are up to you, not to a programming Q&A platform.

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    If someone asks a question that's actually of the quality we want for a long-term repository, you have a good point. However, let's be realistic: how many questions actually fall into that category? Most of the posts here are so one-of that you may help some Russian developer build their alternative to SWIFT to bypass sanctions, while nobody else ever reads your post. This is a very unusually impactful moment and we must consider the impact of our actions precisely, not just philosophically.
    – user18102576
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 14:39
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    @DEATHtoPUTIN-GLORYtoUKR Like the sands of a beach, only a few of them will become pearls. Still, yes, I strive for quality, like many other curators here so. Can't speak for those who don't care that much. On that other point, we all know how this kind of knowledge is a double edged sword.
    – E_net4
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 14:42
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    @GLORYTOUKRAINEPutinMustGo Let’s not forget that the everyday Russian people are suffering massively for this. They effectively received no government help at all for COVID, and just when their economy was starting to come back, this happens throwing decades down the toilet. Consider that most of their people don’t actually support Putin’s decision to invade and are just trying to survive! (Even if every single person in Russia supported Putin, how would you identify one? There are VPNs & people can pick any name they want (including Russian-Americans who aren’t even in Russia, etc.)) Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 13:40
  • "Let's not forget that we're building a repository of Q&A for the community at large.". You mean "we're creating content for free that is being sold by StackOverflow inc.". Some people tend to forget that there is a company here, not some benevolent "community". A company that will Monica you at will, except they can't handle the PR disaster anymore so they'll probably be real careful from now on.
    – Kayaman
    Commented Mar 5, 2022 at 15:32
78

Was this the correct thing to do?

Yes, it was. The comment was clearly made in violation of the current Code of Conduct under the "no bigotry" ruling. Speech with the sole intention to alienate a person based on their attribute (regardless of what that attribute is) is, by definition, bigotry. Just to remind of the wording from the CoC:

No bigotry. We don’t tolerate any language likely to offend or alienate people based on race, gender, sexual orientation, or religion — and those are just a few examples.

A comment designed to make a person of a certain nationality unwelcome is no less bigoted than one aimed at a person of a certain race, no matter the rationalization (not to mention that even thinking that any such action will, in the slightest, help bring the conflict to an end is utterly absurd).

Does SO have a stance on politically motivated comments?

Actually, they have. It's right there, in the Tour:

This site is all about getting answers. It's not a discussion forum. There's no chit-chat.

If a comment is not directly or tangentially related to the content of the post, it is at best noise distracting from the goal of this network of sites: that is, to build a repository of high-quality questions and answers to practical (or theoretical, depending on the site) problems. Anything else has no place on Stack Overflow (meta sites being a notable exception).

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    You nailed it. I'd only add that SO might consider explicitly adding nationality to the list you quoted from the CoC. That is: "based on race, gender, sexual orientation, nationality or religion — and those are just a few examples". Why? Because it makes it even harder for contrarians to argue the fiction that targeting users based on their nationality isn't bigotry.
    – skomisa
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 22:09
  • 16
    @skomisa the longer you make that list, the more reason you give people to say "but X isn't mentioned so it's fine!" I'd advice against adding any more specificity to that list...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 22:18
  • 5
    @Cerbrus I don't follow your argument. As more sources of bigotry are explicitly defined, opportunities to make the (bogus) argument "but X isn't mentioned so it's fine!" necessarily decrease. But the open ended wording on the CoC is sloppy. There needs to be an unequivocal statement that leaves no wiggle room, regardless of the form of bigotry: We don’t tolerate any language likely to offend or alienate people. would cover it nicely, and they almost have that now.
    – skomisa
    Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 1:53
  • 5
    @skomisa I agree - when fetching the quote, I was slightly surprized to not see nationality in the explicit list (it's not like one has to dig deep to find that this kind of bigotry is highly widespread). Frankly, I am still in a bit of a shock that the whole discussion happened in the first place - that anyone could think that bigotry could be "justified" depending on circumstances.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 6:21
  • 3
    @skomisa I feel "and those are just a few examples" covers all other cases just fine. There has to be some room for interpretation, so the mods can apply that outside of the explicitly mentioned examples. If you add more examples of what's wrong, you decrease the importance of the situations that aren't mentioned.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 7:53
62

If you want to be political in your profile, we generally allow that. Your profile is mostly yours (still subject to the Code of Conduct, obviously). If you want to protest governmental actions there have at it. We have users who still support Monica, for that matter. Politics are generally fine there.

If you don't want to help users who might be in Russia or have Russian usernames just don't help them. Nobody is forcing you to help anyone on the platform.

Where this crossed a line was a user said this in comments (this is my paraphrase to get the point across)

I don't like the actions of Russia currently. Your name and profile say you're from Russia. I could answer your question but, because I don't like your country, I won't, and neither should anyone else.

That's not acceptable, regardless of the subject. Maybe the country of Russia is engaged in evil currently (I certainly won't dispute that), but this is how you perpetuate the problem. Blaming a whole class of people for the actions of their country is unacceptable. If they had said the same things, but because of their race, religion, gender, etc. instead, I doubt we'd even be discussing whether or not to flag it.

The TL;DR here is saying (or implying) that we can't (or shouldn't) help someone on Stack Overflow because we don't like something about who the user is (or where they are located) is bigotry, and a clear violation of the Code of Conduct. Protest the country, not the user.

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    I've been suspended multiple times for saying "Israel is an Apartheid State" in my profile, or on my site-name. I wouldn't say "generally allowed". But by any means it's certainly more allowed then in comments. And everyone here is right to say that stuff should stay out of comments/questions/answers. (Just so you don't give a false sense of security.) Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 20:35
  • 6
    @NOWARWITHRUSSIA: This answer specifically mentions that it is OK to protest specific governmental actions. Protesting entire governments? I'd say that is still OK. But an entire nation? That gets close to protesting against a specific nationality, and the consensus seems that the latter is not OK.
    – MSalters
    Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 11:36
  • 9
    @NOWARWITHRUSSIA It's worth noting, in that case, that you set that username network-wide and you have a lot of accounts. I can see why, say, Mi Yodeya might suspend you for that (I don't know if they did and each community has its own rules and moderators). You were not suspended on SO for that username, nor is your current political username an issue. My point is you can be political in your username and profile as long as you don't run afoul of the CoC.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 14:22
  • So, I could have a SO profile name: "Supports Russia, nuclear war and complete eradication of homosapiens" and I won't be deplatformed?
    – TheMaster
    Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 15:42
  • 14
    @TheMaster We actually have had to remove several usernames like that recently. "Supports Russia" would be fine. "nuclear war" is iffy, and "eradicating all humans" would be trolling and/or calling for violence. Calling for violence in any form is a clear CoC violation
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 15:47
  • 8
    @Machavity I don't know where you're going with that. Mi Yodeya suspending a jew for standing against Israel is no more or less heinous than a Catholic StackExchange suspending a Catholic for speaking against the systemic cover-up of child molestation. You'd have to have a very superficial understanding of Judaism to claim that my in-group excuses critiques of racism, occupation, and apartheid: that's Zionism, not Judaism. Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 16:56
  • 4
    @MSalters Certainly you would protest against Nazi Germany, Saudi Arabia, ISIS, and Fascist Italy because the states themselves embrace ideas and philosophies that are contradictory to a civil, humane, and democratic society. Speaking against a state is by any means is not speaking against the people of the territory, and a CoC is focused on protecting people. Presumably, "Stop Russian Aggression" would be ok (even though the Russian state contests that they're the aggressor -- they're wrong), but "Stop Israeli Apartheid" is not ok? Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 17:02
  • 8
    You can protest them all you want. What you can't do is attack users on this platform. It is a fairly simple concept.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 17:21
  • 5
    @KevinB I never attacked a user. I criticized a state. Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 17:25
  • 13
    Then your complaint isn't relevant to this discussion
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 18:47
  • 6
    @KevinB Allow me to correct you: the discussion I started, without you, was in response to "If you want to be political in your profile, we generally allow that. Your profile is mostly yours (still subject to the Code of Conduct, obviously). If you want to protest governmental actions there have at it." I protested government actions and my profile and my nickname were mod-cleared and I was suspended. I never insulted anyone neither Jew nor Israeli -- just critiques of state policy, apartheid, Zionism. But if this discussion is no longer about that, then carry on. It's all yours. Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 19:35
  • 14
    The discussion you started isn't relevant to this question or this answer. If you think the statement that was removed from your profile was incorrectly removed, that's a discussion for another question.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 19:38
  • 5
    You keep your changing your stance. Is it that you don't like the discussion I started that you injected yourself in, or that my commentary isn't relevant to the discussion I started? My caveat is that there is much less leeway given to profiles and nicknames for criticizing state policy than this answer would lead one to believe. And for that reason, I would advise treading with caution. If you think that's not relevant, fine -- we clearly disagree. Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 19:45
  • 9
    @NOWARWITHRUSSIA this isn't a discussion forum, you've been here 12 years so you should know that by now. There is nothing wrong with the question you're posing, all KevinB is saying is that you should post a new question about it and I agree with them.
    – user692942
    Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 20:57
  • 1
    @Marcy no, political profiles are allowed as long as they follow the CoC (this one specifically is fine). It is likely an unrelated issue.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Apr 5, 2022 at 19:45
33

Yes.

If someone had commented a month ago or two years ago or... that they would refuse to help someone from China because of the atrocities committed by the CCP, or if someone today was of the opinion that Putin was justified and commented that they refused to help a Ukranian because of the country's resistance to Putin, I don't think there'd be much question.

The comment was unkind.

14

You did the right thing by flagging the response. SO is not the right platform to share personal/political opinions.

I have been so proud of the technical community, the people of different nationalities that I work with in my office, we may have many political differences, but when I work as an Engineer/programmer, my priorities are only related to my work.

People from my team have never let our personal biases or opinions seep into our work because we know our purpose at work. Similarly, SO is created with a specific purpose to cater to the needs of a specific community (I believe it is irrespective of their social/political identity). Let's keep it that way.

I won't call out anyone as right or wrong for having any opinion, we can always have such discussions on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube comments. But let's keep some places untouched by hate and politics.

12

First,

Is a comment saying that somebody refuses to help due to politics and nationality "unfriendly or unkind?"

Yes, absolutely. You did well to report it.

As Dharman already pointed out, it violates the Code of Conduct. But also:

  • Not posting an answer also affects the rest of the community, because other community members may as well have found the answer the commenter would have written, useful.
  • The comment is excluding a person because of nationality, which is discrimination.
  • As Holger already mentioned, the comment does not add any value.

Further, if you really feel you don't want to answer a question because the asker belongs to a certain group (which I object), then just ignore it and don't place a comment at all.

7

Does SO have a stance on politically motivated comments?

Aside from whether it's "unkind" and so on, it's highly off-topic as a comment.

You can maybe talk about politics in a chat room, and say what you will in your profile -- but not in a comment on the main site.

5
  • Well your opinion might be OK as a comment, though others have already made the same point. But you are explicitly choosing to duck answering the actual question that was asked! I'm not understanding why you chose to post this as answer at all.
    – skomisa
    Commented Mar 3, 2022 at 1:22
  • The question is whether SO has a stance on comments and I'm saying that yes it does, i.e. that comments must be on-topic etc., and that a "political" comment such as this one isn't on-topic -- see When should I comment? in the Help -- and as such a moderator will want to delete (and users should refrain from posting) that kind of comment.
    – ChrisW
    Commented Mar 3, 2022 at 2:07
  • 1
    Nonsense - the question is absolutely not "whether SO has a stance on comments". The question is asked very explicitly in the title: "Is a comment saying that somebody refuses to help due to politics and nationality "unfriendly or unkind?". It is then asked again in the question: "I flagged the comment as: It's unfriendly or unkind. Was this the correct thing to do?". Your answer ignores the question that was asked. The answer can only be yes or no (with an explanation of course).
    – skomisa
    Commented Mar 3, 2022 at 2:55
  • 1
    "Aside from whether it's unkind" (as I wrote), it was correct to flag the comment.
    – ChrisW
    Commented Mar 3, 2022 at 3:12
  • 2
    That's like answering "How do I add 1 to 2 in <language>" with "Aside from the addition, you can use <tech> to communicate the result to some client." It doesn't answer the question.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Mar 3, 2022 at 8:15
-46

Yes, it looks like you did it right. But as @Larnu said:

Then put a note in your profile stating that you dont support Russia and won't be contributing to any questions from those from Russia

the problem is not, as @Dharman said, with:

the person who authored the question doesn't matter

but with the fact that this was written in the comment, not profile.

Taking into account that in SO, profiles can be political, we could ask: what to do if somebody will write in the comment "I know the answer, but because of the statement in my profile, I won't help you"? And I think that you can only mark it as "spam". This is not unfriendly, unkind, harassment, bigotry or abuse if the reason can exist in the profile. And as @Larnu showed, it can exist in the profile.

I must add something regarding "targeting specific person". Please remember that this problem is similar to law - law is not targeting a specific person, but a characteristic. The user can clearly write this in profile. Of course, we can later check if this is true - if this user really targets characteristics, not the person. But if this user will write a comment directed at some specific person, this is not evidence of targeting a person and not characteristic. We would need to show that this user wrote a comment to some person with specific characteristics and didn't write to another person which had this characteristic but could do this (i.e. answered the question without a similar comment).

For reference:

Should political (possibly offensive) content be allowed in user's profile?

13
  • 26
    If you put a statement in your profile saying you refuse to help Russian users then that's not harrassment of any specific person, but if you comment on a specific person's question to say the same thing (whether or not you say it directly or point at the same statement written elsewhere), it is targeted at that individual user. So I don't think your argument is convincing at all.
    – kaya3
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 13:06
  • 3
    @kaya3 No, as long as you would write this comment to all users which have some specific characteristic, this is not specific for some person. This is the same as with the law - if you punish all people who are thieves, even if it concerns on specific people (they have names etc.) this is not specific for some person, but for specific characteristic.
    – gss
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 13:11
  • 7
    "No, as long as you would write this comment to all users which have some specific characteristic, this is not specific for some person." if that's the case, do expect a modflag for flooding the site with useless comments.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 13:13
  • 1
    Yes, of course, this is what I said - it is spam.
    – gss
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 13:14
  • 2
    Which isn't friendly. And I'd certainly consider a wide spread of such comments as harassment and abuse.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 13:15
  • 2
    @gss you seem to ignore the part "No bigotry" from the code of conduct, I would count that as a Rude or Abusive flag if anyone makes such comments. Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 13:15
  • 9
    "No, as long as you would write this comment to all users which have some specific characteristic, this is not specific for some person" - your argument seems to be that as long as somebody harrasses everyone in a certain group then it's not harrassment. I disagree, on the basis of the meaning of the word "harrassment".
    – kaya3
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 13:16
  • 1
    Ok, but it looks like you are igonoring the fact that profiles can be political. It is very clear in this site.
    – gss
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 13:18
  • 7
    No, I'm not ignoring that at all. I'm saying that there is no loophole saying it is OK to harrass somebody by writing a comment telling them to read a statement written in your profile, as opposed to harrassing that person by making the same statement in the comment itself. You can put it on your profile without harrassing individual users by telling them to go read your profile.
    – kaya3
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 13:20
  • Nobody is overlooking that. You're just trying to make a claim that profiles and comments are the same. They aren't.
    – VLAZ
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 13:20
  • 2
    No, you are wrong. I clearly said that you can't write the same in the profile and in the comment.
    – gss
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 13:22
  • 3
    @gss so let's frame the situation differently. the profile of user A states "i am an evangelical Christian, and follow the word of god" they then comment on a question by a user B who has a rainbow or similar pride symbol in their profile picture. User A's comment reads "I can answer this question but choose not to, see my profile for details". Is that really not harassing the person just with 1 extra step. the only reason you would make such a comment is to hope to bring attention to this factor you believe people who also not answer this question the bases of.
    – Nifim
    Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 18:40
  • @Nifim perhaps I should improve my answer. Generally, I think it should be possible to have political profile and let others know about your profile and this should be seen only as spam / off topic, because you don't have to check the profile. I mean - I feel it is controversial, but for me the solution would be to prohibit political profiles. Otherwise we would have the situation when profiles can be political, but then you can't say about them (in some context), because it can be harassing. That's a nonsense for me. If something can exists, then it can exists very openly.
    – gss
    Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 22:08
-48

No. It should be flagged as, "It's no longer needed." It contributes nothing to the content of the post, so it doesn't belong there. It's not bigotry; it is in no way, shape, or form a personal judgement or insult against this individual user. It's a personal, political motivation for the user's choice not to engage in the question. You don't have to like the motivation, but SO has no rules (and cannot have any) about inaction on the platform. Inaction does not need to be explained, though, and is best done silently. If a user wishes to make note of their reason for inaction, the only remotely appropriate place to do so would be their profile.

29
  • 55
    "I know the answer but I'm not telling you because of where you're from" <-- how is that not rude? That's literal racism and bullying. I mean, you don't have to rub that into someone's face. Just don't post the answer if that makes you feel better.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 17:02
  • 26
    This is degrading rapidly. Do we feel this is going some place?
    – Stephen Rauch Mod
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 17:16
  • 8
    Well, more like nationalism (just as with any bigotry on any basis), but the mechanism is the same, I tend to agree. That said, can we all please stop the in-fighting and remember that we are volunteers on an international platform with the goal of building up knowledge, not imposing our views on others (and that primarily includes gloating about not helping in the face of a random user), whatever it might be? Please?
    – 0Valt
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 17:26
  • 34
    @jpmc26: There are 2 things going on here. 1: That commenter doesn't wanna help Russians. 2: That commenter is commenting to make someone feel bad for where they're from, and the actions of their dictator. 1 is fine. 2 is just a blatant CoC violation. You can protest the country's actions without being an *** to other users.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 17:30
  • 4
    Also, having a single comment removed for harassment isn't exactly severely punishing the commenter. It's just a deleted comment...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 17:31
  • 7
    I think you're overestimating the impact of a single deleted comment
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 17:32
  • 10
    @jpmc26: If you really think that is a real problem here, I'd suggest you compile your evidence and make a case on Meta (in a different question), as that's a different discussion.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 17:34
  • 18
    @jpmc26 I am sorry to say that, but because they are one. They took it upon themselves to gloat that they know a solution but will not share it based on the perceived nationality of a user - this is bigotry. You can try to wriggle the definition with rhetorics about punishing dictatorships, but it does not make the comment less bigoted, and such things should be dealt with accordingly.
    – 0Valt
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 17:39
  • 3
    @Cerbrus Isn't assigning nefarious motives a CoC violation? How can you say that they did to make someone feel bad? It's vastly more likely they did it because they think it's important to raise awareness or because they want to motivate more Russians to oppose Putin. Obviously, that wouldn't be the best way to do so, but the point here is you're insulting this user by assuming the worst possible motive for their actions.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 17:39
  • 24
    "Nanananana I'm not gonna tell you the answer I know" is preschool-level petty / gloating. There is no way it is not intended maliciously.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 17:40
  • 3
    @Cerbrus I'm not sure you realize how ridiculous it is to equate pre-school level immaturity with actual racism, much less with the willful intention to do harm. A pre-schooler does immature things because they're not capable of reasoning clearly about their response, not because they actually want to hurt people.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 17:44
  • 15
    That's.... exactly my point. The comment is childish. SO users should be mature enough not to post that kind of petty gloating messages...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 17:45
  • 9
    "visceral reaction"? I'm just saying that telling someone they don't deserve an answer because of their nationality is bigotry... That's not visceral, that's just applying the CoC. I can accuse the commenter of bigotry, just like I can accuse a thief of theft.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 17:48
  • 7
    @Cerbrus The comment doesn't say anything about what anyone deserves. That's your prejudice putting meaning into the commenter's words. What it does say is the user has decided they are going to take a particular action as their personal stand against war and tyranny. You don't have to agree with it, but you don't get to unilaterally decide it's motivated by any kind of bigotry.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 17:50
  • 8
    My point is, it's... not about the act of refusing service being absurd, from your point of view, it's the... seeming "need" to inform others of your opinion that isn't at all relevant to the problem at hand, and in this case can be considered rude/abusive. You can deny service all you want without being rude, people do it every day.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 21:25
-85

I'm going to throw this up here, in the manner of spaghetti against a wall, and see what kind of reaction (i.e. voting) it gets.

As was mentioned in a comment to Dharman's answer, what the commenter did can be considered a "micro-sanction". Personally, I don't disagree with it at all, and I'm seriously considering doing the same thing in another context.

Why should the Russian user be "held responsible"? Because he's from a state that is now and absolutely should be an international pariah. That he's not old enough to vote makes the situation less fair for him, but — just as every single last citizen of Ukraine is currently experiencing in an up-close, personal, and occasionally fatal way — life isn't always fair.

So, yes, a comment which ostracizes users based on their perceived nationality may be technically a violation of the CoC. It might also be an eminently justifiable violation. (It might also be no violation at all, in a hypothetical world where the CoC contained an explicit exception concerning hypothetical international intellectual sanctions against pariah nations.)

23
  • 69
    There's no need to comment it though; if you want to micro sanction users from Russia simply don't contribute to their questions. Don't hang the carrot in front of them and tell them they can't have it. There's a big difference between ignoring the content of a user and telling the user you know the answer but aren't going to provide it to them.
    – Thom A
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 12:37
  • 5
    @Lamu But quietly declining to answer such a question has no effect at all, so it doesn't really fulfill the purpose of a sanction. A public sanction is a form of communication: it sends a strong message about what's considered acceptable. I could say (but I won't) that arguments against public sanctions are a form of communication, too, in that they could be read as signaling support for the target of the sanction. Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 12:38
  • 35
    Then put a note in your profile stating that you dont support Russia and won't be contributing to any questions from those from Russia. The comments aren't for conversation on Stack Overflow and telling a user you won't answer their questions, but know what the answer is, is at *best" politically conversational, and at worst rude.
    – Thom A
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 12:43
  • 21
    What is it that makes this situation exceptional? Is it the color of the skin of the people who die? If not, then what? Situations like this and worse than this happen all around the world. Just open your eyes to see them. Don't act surprised.
    – forpas
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 13:56
  • 3
    @forpas It is exceptional for the leader of a nuclear-armed superpower, with a seat on the UN Security council, (a leader who is, not that it matters, Caucasian) to repeatedly and defiantly say "F**k You" to the rest of the world. What I hear people in this thread saying (and, yes, I realize I'm getting emotional about this, and that it's nowhere near this simple) is, "Yeah, that's pretty bad, but it's not bad enough for us to make an exception in the case of the boycotter 's well-intentioned comment, even though I guess it does violate the Code of Conduct." Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 14:21
  • 36
    So... what happened to Stack Exchange's motto, "focus on the content, not the user"?
    – Andrew T.
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 14:26
  • 18
    Really? Is it the first time that you see the leader of a nuclear-armed superpower, with a seat on the UN Security council, (a leader who is, not that it matters, Caucasian) to repeatedly and defiantly say "F..k You" to the rest of the world? Isn't this what all the leaders of a nuclear-armed superpower do? Are you that young to know or that blind to see? Or is it that selective sensitivity to what you consider exceptional?
    – forpas
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 14:40
  • 31
    Though I don't agree with the post, I also don't agree with the delete votes here. The fact that this is the opposite view point to the many who have visited this question doesn't make it a answer worthy of deletion; it remaining is actually probably better for the community, as people know that the community does not agree with this stance.
    – Thom A
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 16:46
  • 23
    This is an atrocious take. You could literally replace "Russia" with a race, religion, ethnicity or belief system and you'd be able to justify your attempted message in the same way. Suffice to say, this is Stack Overflow; you're under absolutely no obligation to help anyone you don't want to, but the instant you decide to make a comment about why you're not doing it, you'd best believe you're subject to the CoC of the site - and yes, this is expressly forbidden.
    – Makoto
    Commented Feb 27, 2022 at 22:58
  • 13
    @forpas Re "What is it that makes this situation exceptional? Is it the color of the skin of the people who die?", well said. I had wondered the same thing myself. There have been many conflicts in recent years that have resulted in horrendous misery, suffering and death - far, far worse than anything that has yet occurred in Ukraine. The claim that Ukraine is an "exceptional situation", and deserving of special consideration on Stack Overflow after only four days of fighting, is both offensive and objectively incorrect.
    – skomisa
    Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 5:51
  • 8
    "I'm going to throw this up here, in the manner of spaghetti against a wall, and see what kind of reaction (i.e. voting) it gets." - I seriously respect that. It is exactly these kind of posts where we learn what people absolutely do not want and why. I colleague of mine said that "if it is time to share ideas to solve a problem, you might as well just say something stupid because it gets people to start talking". Similarly, it is important to say things people absolutely disagree with - because it gets them talking. People in agreement don't have much to talk about, just nod.
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 13:50
  • 9
    People do find it disheartening that one of SO's high-rep users (that's not an appeal to your pride, by the way) would suggest that "a comment saying that somebody refuses to help due to politics and nationality" is not "unfriendly or unkind", when that comment is a violation of the CoC. "Life isn't fair" is not an excuse to be rude to people, especially for something they can't help, when they're already under oppression. Your answer has a total score of -59, lots of people disagree with your answer; well, life isn't always fair 😕. Commented Feb 28, 2022 at 22:37
  • 3
    @SteveSummit Without getting bogged down in the specifics, I think you invited and instigated the opprobrium that came your way because of the inflammatory manner in which you presented your views. Initially I (incorrectly) thought that you were deliberately trolling because your presentation was so one-eyed. Even so, I suspect your views would have been better tolerated if you hadn't insisted on needlessly tossing chum in the water at every opportunity.
    – skomisa
    Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 0:08
  • 12
    "Life isn't fair so I'm going to make it even more unfair on purpose" is one of the most morally repugnant attitudes it's possible to have.
    – F1Krazy
    Commented Mar 1, 2022 at 10:49
  • 9
    Can we have an apolitical, international forum for programmers? At least be consistent in this silliness. If Western commentators outraged by Ukraine war really did so on principle, why is it we never see such calls against US, Israeli, British, French, German programmers? Please take off the mask (Like those BBC, CBS reporters did). And let SO be SO, a fraternity of programmers. Not a place to peddle Western political agenda.
    – NSNoob
    Commented Mar 2, 2022 at 6:14

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