62

Final revision: So with the latest addition of the Intel Collective, and in the absence of any movement with the community drafting guidelines or an understanding of why this exists at all, I'm not convinced that me trying to get the company to talk about why we're doing this or what we'll be doing it for is going to bear any fruit. I'll be withdrawing from engaging on this going forward.

Original post below.


EDIT: I'm getting a lot of confused responses and comments on this.

The cliff-notes version of this question is:

In light of the fact that...

  • The community hasn't had a chance to reckon with how Collectives fit in with normal Q&A
  • We have run into very real technical issues in trying to work with them
  • We have had to confront the philosophical issues of moderating types of content we've never seen before (reminder that a feature like this exists in Stack Overflow for Teams but never in public Q&A)
  • Collectives can only really exist because of the dedication of curators
  • The company is giving the distinct impression of moving forward with this feature in spite of the feedback the community is giving or wants to give

The question I want answered is:
How is the company incorporating feedback into this feature, if at all?

Are curators who have enabled this feature to exist at all even being heard, and what are the explicit ways that we can observe that's happening?

With the introduction of this new collective, I am not of the impression that this engagement is happening at all.

No one wants to talk about money, or profit margins, or any of that crap. I legitimately don't want to be gaslit on how the company plans to or how they are actively engaging with the veteran curators of the site who have raised (and for some reason continue to raise) their concerns with this feature.

Original post below.


Apparently, we have GitLab as a new collective now.

enter image description here

Some things about this discourage me in regards to the feedback we've provided about collectives at all - it seems like the company is going to move forward with adding new ones in spite of how the community feels about it.

Is the company going to circle back to read through the copious amounts of feedback and pain points that the community has had with this feature before they continue to add more, or is that not on the table?

I should be upfront with my expectations on this answer. I don't want to be gaslit anymore about engagement with the community. Tell me how you're going to respond to and engage with feedback, if at all, and simply set my expectations. I want this to be completely unambiguous and not leave any room for doubt.

19
  • I close this question as a duplicate of the blog post: stackoverflow.blog/2021/09/22/…
    – rene
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 17:22
  • 22
    @rene: Doesn't answer the question - are they going to address the community's feedback on what Collectives have meant and what they're introducing to Q&A, or is that just...not a thing?
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 17:23
  • 4
    What is your expectation if the marketing blog runs an announcement for it?
    – rene
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 17:24
  • 5
    @rene: It's kinda obvious, really. If they're moving forward with this feature without engaging the community on its pain points or what we've encountered when trying to...help...moderate the content, then I have no confidence that they'd want our feedback. But maybe this is me just holding out hope for no reason.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 17:26
  • 6
    Considering that they push and do not revert unpopular changes I think it's safe to say that they're not going to remove Collectives™.
    – Scratte
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 17:29
  • 2
    The company is certainly improving communication with the user base (review queues, unpinning answer etc.) but I'd have thought that 260+ downvotes was enough to see that the community doesn't want collectives. All the answers were essentially shouting at trees because this is a corporate decision.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 17:31
  • 2
    If companies want to participate on SO, then they are free to do so. SO is community moderated though; they should gain rep and learn how SO works like everyone else. Giving people who may have no idea what SO is about a special badge of identification is like making Albert Einstein the president; while he is smart, he has no idea what he is doing and needs to learn.
    – 10 Rep
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 17:34
  • 11
    GitLabs's always been a part of the initial sets of Collectives - they were exposed via the API even before going public. It seems like its visibility changed, though. Which is likely related to their planned move from "beta" to release closure to the end of the year
    – 0Valt
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 17:35
  • Looking into the future is always uncertain. Nobody knows for sure and even if they plan to listen to feedback out could take longer or they could do both on parallel with timely overlap or they could decide that listening to feedback does not include doing something about it. This question would be better if it would include a bit more specific demands what you actually want to have from the company as incorporation of feedback. Personally, I think that collectives are pretty much dead at that point and one skeleton more or less doesn't make a difference. Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 20:27
  • 1
    Obviously, they shouldn't ruin their own product to prove a point, but there have been plenty of companies that make wildly unpopular decisions, and still go on to sell a lot/bring in a lot of revenue (that's not great, but it's the free market, and there are other factors at play than a single feature's likeability). I understand that S.E. is getting a lot of free labor from the community, but it's not evenly distributed, and no one is forcing you to act in the capacity that you are. Commented Sep 24, 2021 at 16:58
  • 2
    sure... no one is standing behind every volunteer here with a gun, that's true :) But the "no one is forcing you" is a well-known logical fallacy. No one is forcing, but there are a lot coercion mechanisms collectively called "gamification".
    – 0Valt
    Commented Sep 24, 2021 at 17:16
  • 2
    I don't get the "coercion mechanisms". I don't feel coerced to do anything on Stack Overflow. If I contribute an answer it's because I want to (because it makes me feel good). If I contribute a question, well stated and proper, it's because I want to (because I want an answer). More important: If I can't stand the questions on some stack I hide it; if I find questions on some tag intolerable I ignore the tag; if I find particular questions useless/purile/flame-bait I ignore them. And those things I ignore: There's no whip or electric prod that SO uses to get me to pay attention to them.
    – davidbak
    Commented Sep 24, 2021 at 18:00
  • 3
    "Coercion is compelling a party to act in an involuntary manner by use of threats, including propaganda or force. It involves a set of various types of forceful actions that violate the free will of an individual to induce a desired response, for example: a bully demanding lunch money from a student or the student gets beaten." (Wikipedia) So is it really naïve to suggest there's no coercion from SO/SE to anyone, and refer to personal experience as a shorthand for that? A person's desire for more frequent dopamine hints is not coercion not matter how much you want to debase the language.
    – davidbak
    Commented Sep 24, 2021 at 18:49
  • 3
    Money money money.... money.
    – Travis J
    Commented Nov 3, 2021 at 16:26
  • 2
    Another garbage collective added. And look at that most questions are downvoted.
    – JonH
    Commented Nov 3, 2021 at 18:02

4 Answers 4

19

It is incorrect to say that the company hasn't engaged with the feedback or concerns. We've spent a significant amount of time in reading, responding, and delivering changes to fix bugs or add features, resulting in major changes to collectives as well. For instance, one of the pain points was the use of articles for announcements. The ability to do that has been removed. Additionally, I'm about to launch a conversation (imminently - think days, not weeks) about co-creating some guidelines for how articles are used together with the community.

This collective launched with an article that I think is a fairly good representation of what the feature should be used for. That wasn't accidental. It's a result of a change in the guidance that we give clients on launch. Like this one, many of the changes we made were on the back-end and wouldn't necessarily be publicly visible, so you wouldn't know that we made them. If your concern is that the community's feedback has been ignored, then rest easily. It hasn't been. We haven't launched new collectives until today precisely because we've been combing through that feedback, and we finally feel like we're in a place to do so because we've made systemic changes to address some of the things that went wrong.

17
  • 29
    I'm going to be polite and enumerate what bugs me about this specific response. Some Cliff notes: yes, you've been doing "work", but none of that work is known to us or really reads the room of how we actually feel about Collectives as a feature unto itself, nor does it do anything to guard against content that is essentially reposted.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 17:52
  • 38
    First of all, the pain points that I've seen within the community was, "How the heck do we deal with these things?" Are we involved in the curation of these at all? What happens when we can't do that? (This may be the "bug" you're referring to.) We've not heard anything about that (at a philosophical level, not at a bugfix level) and given the role of many of us as curators here, that would've been nice to hear about.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 17:53
  • 32
    Second, we've talked about the notion of an article from a collective just rebranding or reposting content. If I squint at this particular article from GitLab that you want to be an ur-example, it very much feels and reads like content they've already posted. Y'know, on their own site.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 17:54
  • 36
    I will say very loudly that I will not simply take your word that feedback has been listened to. The company has done a lot of talking but action is very difficult to observe. That needs to change before we can start having a mutual trust that we're being heard or our concerns are being weighed.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 17:55
  • 43
    Lastly, and probably ultimately, we still haven't had a core conversation about what collectives are in Q&A, and if the community that actually does the legwork of supporting Q&A is cool with that. This feature exists on the back of volunteers and those who express good will with the company. It is not unreasonable for those same volunteers to want their concerns heard.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 17:56
  • 5
    ...but hey, if that's not an option, there's always just letting the people who are in charge of the collective run it all on their own.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 17:57
  • 41
    A bit more nitpicking on that ur-example there - this is the same problem we faced with Documentation as a project. People would just...bring over the same information found elsewhere on the Internet and put it into Documentation to score some easy rep. That was expressly not a goal of this effort, and seeing it here again in the flesh when the community - and seemingly, the company - wanted to avoid this is nothing short of mind-boggling. The writing on the wall could not be more legible on this.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 17:59
  • 1
    I don't think "the company" was trying to avoid people gaming docs for rep, given that they expressly made that possible and then gave no guidance we could use to stop it from going wild. With these articles, while I still find them as a pretty awful solution to... well, anything, don't rise to the level of docs rep gaming.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 18:19
  • 1
    (btw, there's still an announcement-style article up on the other collective that has used articles)
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 19:37
  • 3
    "resulting in major changes to collectives ...the use of articles for announcements. The ability to do that has been removed." Not sure if it's a major change. Collective still look very much the same than in June only with much less articles. I'm also not sure if this one article is a good example or if there is sufficient potential for more or better articles. Time will tell. So far articles didn't fly at all and maybe they never will. The only tangible collectives feature so far is recommendations. Makoto is concerned about something that currently hardly exists. Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 22:00
  • 1
    For example, just naming a few problems with articles: what is they contain bad information? What if there are alternatives? What if they are not focused enough? What if people want to edit them or close them or use them as duplicate targets. And shouldn't there be at least say 20 different existing articles to be able to judge how and if they are working? Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 22:04
  • 1
    @Trilarion: Less barrier to engagement, in my mind. If it's small and/or relatively minor, then engaging on it shouldn't be problematic.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 22:18
  • 18
    "If your concern is that the community's feedback has been ignored, then rest easily. It hasn't been." Just a bit of feedback: this might come across as a bit condescending and is difficult to judge if true or not (judging by past experience it might be difficult to believe). I would rather concentrate on concrete actions and then formulate it a bit more openly or maybe just remove "rest easily". Active meta users never rest easily. :) Commented Sep 23, 2021 at 9:22
  • 2
    So Philippe, I've made an effort to revise the question to be more exact on what it is I'm looking for. Your current answer doesn't quite address my concerns, and I want to be sure that this doesn't turn into repeated history of engagements with Stack Overflow staff - community says something, staff replies once, and then that's it. I won't deny that I'm pretty scorned so far with Stack Overflow, but I'm trying to give this a chance.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 27, 2021 at 14:54
  • 3
    @JonH: This isn't the place to do that. If you want to criticize the product, spin up your own question and give your own pointed feedback about it. I'm only asking about how they're going to continue to engage with us and take feedback in.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 27, 2021 at 15:13
16

The future cannot be predicted accurately. Usually, you use the past as the best possible indicator, but take the results with a grain of salt. You know yourself how often the company listened to its users in the past. Sometimes they did, but most of the time they didn't. However, after a big public outcry, they usually changed their course (they removed the thank you feature, clarified the content license change, ..).

Especially in the case of collectives, feedback was initially sought from a few selected people before publication (and they were asked not to disclose anything). After going public, they received feedback in the introduction post, in a townhall post (and answered 2/3 of the questions asked there) and from ~30 questions on Meta. Some questions they were able to solve or answer, others they were not. For example, they clearly answered that articles must be ontopic.

It was also clear from Cesar and Phillipe's comments here that they will continue to work on the topic and will likely add more collectives and improve or refine the features around collectives.

The biggest point raised by the community here so far has been that the whole idea has been received rather critically. The Introductory post currently has a whopping score of -267(!), so since they're still kind of following up on the idea, you could say they haven't listened in that particular aspect. Other general discussions such as Goodbye, reputation privileges, hello, collectives - is this what we want? also have no official answer yet.

I assume that means they do not really react to general criticisms of the concept as a whole, and I assume that this is unlikely to be on the table in the short to medium term. However, they are willing to listen to optimizations of specific details of the concept.

I guess that in their mind the idea hasn't yet died and is fundamentally sound, just needs to be tweaked or communicated a bit better. Lots of guesswork from my side here.

It should also perhaps be said that collectives have had a relatively minor impact on the overall site so far. Certainly the company has success metrics about the impact and I'd like to know more about how they've performed so far, but for example the number of good quality articles is still very small (< 10) and therefore almost negligible.

3
  • 12
    Am I wrong to get this take away from your post? "We don't like this, please remove it! BTW there's a minor plural bug in this corner". "We fixed the plural bug, so we're responding to feedback"..
    – Scratte
    Commented Sep 23, 2021 at 9:33
  • 2
    @Scratte Yes, your example reflects what I think is going on. Commented Sep 23, 2021 at 11:08
  • 1
    So, essentially, window-dressing.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Sep 24, 2021 at 9:06
-6

I think the collectives feature should be removed. I think the fact that companies are paying for collectives gives the wrong incentives to Stack Overflow.

I have always liked Stack Overflow because of how it's not trying to sell you anything, Right now, it's an amazing open platform, but I think bringing money into it is going to ruin it.

If we have collectives, I think they should be a free service and then maybe those who run Stack Overflow can look at this feature in an unbiased way and figure out what would be best for the site.

4
  • I may be inclined to agree with your feature request, but this doesn't answer my actual question. If you want to post this as your own feature request, feel encouraged to do so.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 27, 2021 at 2:32
  • @Makoto, meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/411792/… Commented Sep 28, 2021 at 1:05
  • 1
    Re "I think they should be a free service": Wasn't there some intent to have one open source project Collective for each commercial one? Said on the podcast? Or in some blog or meta post? Commented Nov 4, 2021 at 19:05
  • i've read that they were interested in "working with" open source/educational projects, but i took that as simply having a different price.. not free. but i wouldn't know what was said in a podcast.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Nov 4, 2021 at 19:08
-9

I was concerned about this feature when it first launched. It had plenty of bugs, which sometimes spill to the main site.

Now, I know how I feel about Collectives. I simply do not care about them. They provide no value. They cause no harm to Stack Overflow.

Let them be.

10
  • 8
    1) This doesn't address the question of, "Are we going to be able to give feedback to the company and how will we hear about it", and 2) I'm not gonna accept that they forced this work onto me as a curator. Even if to you it doesn't do any harm, it still comes up from time to time and it adds some amount of mental work to curators. Even if you don't have to deal with it, knowing it exists is a problem. Kinda like a big ol' spider; even if it isn't poisonous, knowing that it's in your inner sanctum is discomforting.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 19:55
  • 34
    I agree that they do not provide value. But I'm not sure they don't cause harm.
    – Scratte
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 20:42
  • 7
    I like spiders. I prefer spiders than flies in my room.
    – Dharman Mod
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 20:44
  • They do provide brand awareness for one company over another which certainly doesn't help users of their competitors, though I wouldn't go so far as to say it actively harms them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 22, 2021 at 20:49
  • 4
    Not all spiders eat flies, @Dharman.
    – Makoto
    Commented Sep 23, 2021 at 1:49
  • 10
    even though I'm kinda reluctant to admit this, the Go collective has provided actual tangible value to the tag in the form of a few maintainers of the Go language becoming significantly more active in answering questions and moderating content by casting votes. The value they bring to those Q&A is very real, thanks to their expertise with the technology — you know, they are the authors —, and new-found engagement with SO. This may or may not last, and may or may not extend to other collectives, but so far it is a success
    – blackgreen Mod
    Commented Sep 24, 2021 at 10:14
  • @blackgreen Nice to hear that there is at least something positive coming out of it. I wonder why though. Either it's the gamification features (collective's leaderboards) that are working or it's simply Google allowing its employees to spend more time here. Because otherwise nothing has changed really. Commented Sep 28, 2021 at 10:43
  • @Trilarion AFAICT gamification doesn’t play a role, in fact it’s just noise. Like, the collective trophy icon of the weekly top-three appears on your user card at all times; when I post in another tag the icon shows up even though it has nothing to do with it. I’m only glad that these trophies and recommendation labels don’t skew voting patterns (probably?) It’s just Google’s employees who became more active in a way that is consistent with the goals of the platform at large, and I think it will be an outlier.
    – blackgreen Mod
    Commented Sep 28, 2021 at 10:52
  • 1
    @blackgreen thank you for sharing that. It is reasonable to believe that a very specific open source oriented collective like Go (and also Gitlab) which is tied to a single tag can help streamline things. For other programming platforms it might be a little more troublesome though. Is there going to be a Java collective... or an Oracle collective. There is like a world of difference there :/
    – Gimby
    Commented Sep 28, 2021 at 14:12
  • I mean... the collective created a leaderboard that is best pursued by refraining from gaining rep outside of tags related to the collective. At least some number of users will go from answering more broadly to narrowing down to that set of tags to boost their rankings, for whatever reason they deem important.
    – Kevin B
    Commented Sep 28, 2021 at 15:11

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