2

This has to do with the public statistics regarding a user's total upvoting and downvoting count, which can be seen by any visitor in the Activity menu.

screenshot presenting an unmentioned user's total vote count. All-time: 3,605 up and 2,803 down; by type: 2,835 on questions and 3573 on answers; votes this month: 47; votes this week: 27; votes this day: 3

This feature request proposes to hide the up and down counters in this section from other users that are not moderators. The reasons for doing this follow.

It is not useful for moderation or curation purposes. Detecting a pattern of fraudulent voting cannot be determined by the total number of votes cast. Whenever a form of targeted voting is investigated, moderators are known to rely on more informative patterns and to escalate to staff when needed. Any flag for moderator attention regarding suspicion of voting fraud should try to state their concerns and suspicions without mentioning these total counts.

We generally agree that comments trying to make a point via the upvote/downvote ratio are not constructive. Reference: this Meta question, asked from someone trying to understand the point of such a comment. By the answers presented, there is no controversy in the statement that these comments are something that we do not want to keep nor encourage.

These numbers tend to create a stigma against users, more than they help educate them. Curators who are likely to have cast a larger number of downvotes than upvotes are perceived as grumpy. Salty. Hostile. Psychopath. Or with troll tendencies. Not my words, but they do happen. The opposite happens as well: non-curators who, from the point of view of some, argue that they could be downvoting more, and that their large number of upvotes vs downvotes is a disservice. And on Meta, this negative stigma seems to be more common than the number of opportunities to explain that these numbers depend on how they use the site, and may present themselves in a wide variety of patterns without being considered a problem of conduct. Quoting a comment from Makyen:

From what I've seen in these comments, and elsewhere where people discuss upvote/downvote ratios, both the vast majority of people and the numbers which are often stated as "good", "bad", or "normal", are heavily biased towards the ideal the person who's presenting the number has for how the site should be used, rather than looking at it with the understanding that the way which they experience and use the site is not the same as how every other person experiences and uses the site. There is no one "right" or "good" ratio, or even a narrow range of ratios which are "good", or "bad".

As a consequence of this bias, this information made public can discourage voting, in a platform which definitely needs more voting. In particular, the visibility of these numbers has been mentioned as outright discouraging downvoting. Even if it's not for the sake of not having to explain the upvote/downvote ratio to a potential employer, the previous reasons still stand. As votes are anonymous by design, there is little to no reason for these statistics to be visible.

This wouldn't be the first time public information about a user was hidden from public view. The user's acceptance rate was eventually taken out from the asker's user card because it was effectively counter-productive: it resulted in potential answerers deciding to walk away from questions that they could have answered, as well as in askers being pressured and harassed towards accepting answers just to increase this metric. Stack Overflow the company also doesn't have an issue in making unilateral changes to the user profile page, as well exhibited recently. And in this case, the visibility of the upvote/downvote ratio seems to be causing more harm than good.

This doesn't stop people from sharing their own voting ratios. And if absolutely necessary, an open catalog of voting ratios could be constructed, before or after this change, contributed by users choosing to volunteer with their own ratios at some point in time, thus keeping a source of possible patterns for educational purposes.

With these arguments, I would say that it is time for common users to no longer be able to see other users' total number of upvotes and downvotes cast, both on the main site and on Meta, and keeping them only visible to moderators.

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  • 20
    I only upvoted this question to get a better voting ratio in meta.
    – yivi
    Sep 9, 2021 at 11:46
  • 3
    ... actually yes. This one makes a lot of sense.
    – Gimby
    Sep 9, 2021 at 12:13
  • 12
    Despite getting snarky comments about my own voting habits, I don't think hiding things is a good path. I prefer transparency.
    – Scratte
    Sep 9, 2021 at 12:23
  • 3
    Transparency is not inherently good for all things, @Scratte. Would you support non-anonymous voting as well?
    – yivi
    Sep 9, 2021 at 12:25
  • 4
    You forgot toxic, elitist (whatever that means), and gate keeping in your list near "grumpy". Sep 9, 2021 at 12:27
  • 12
    "It is not useful for moderation or curation purposes." When witnessing a new user's low quality answer (non-answer or low-quality rip-off of other answer) being quickly accepted and/or upvoted, the OP receive many upvotes quickly and the new user already having cast a matching amount of upvotes, I thought this was useful info to include in a mod flag. Sep 9, 2021 at 12:27
  • 2
    @yivi I wouldn't mind if it was non-anonymous. I don't mind that it is either. I do not think hiding the total ratio is going to change the snark, it will just redirect it to something else.
    – Scratte
    Sep 9, 2021 at 12:28
  • 2
    @HereticMonkey I would know the total number before the incident happened because then the new user account didn't yet exist / had enough reputation to even cast upvotes. Don't you think that seeing the new user cast 7 upvotes, 3 to questions, 4 to answers and the OP in the same time receive 3 upvotes to questions and 4 to answers (via reputation tab) is useful info in a flag for a mod to dig deeper? Sep 9, 2021 at 12:45
  • 3
    @PeterMortensen I'm sure some will also cast a delete vote. I do not have that privilege. I used to flag "Not an Answers". Those posts are usually deleted within the day and I got my votes back. On busy days, I'd cast 60 votes on a day.
    – Scratte
    Sep 9, 2021 at 13:04
  • 12
    I really don't like the implication of having to disguise this information due to negative reactions. If someone feels my up/down ratio warrants calling me "grumpy. Salty. Hostile. Psychopath." – hiding this information from them isn't going to solve the problem. Sep 9, 2021 at 13:37
  • 10
    I mean, I've never once been "attacked" or insulted over my 30k+ downvotes. Is this actually a prevalent problem?
    – Kevin B
    Sep 9, 2021 at 14:13
  • 7
    The voting habits of moderators (whether they actually act on problematic content or let is slide) is a rather important piece of information for moderator elections.
    – Kevin B
    Sep 9, 2021 at 14:16
  • 5
    @KevinB I've been told I'm the "Bad guy", and that "SO is dead because of me" for predominantly downvoting, in the past 24 hours... So yea.
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 9, 2021 at 15:16
  • 10
    As a moderator: I rely on these stats, daily. Do not remove them. As an account holder with more downvotes than you have: I have not experienced people calling me salty, grumpy, or a psychopath in connection with my voting stats. Moderators tend to deal with very salty characters but that has never been connected with my voting stats. So I don’t share your opinion on this.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Sep 9, 2021 at 20:32
  • 4
    But ... But ... I do want others to see my upvote/downvote ratio i.stack.imgur.com/fSWUo.png Sep 9, 2021 at 20:53

8 Answers 8

18

As much as I've pushed against this, I do understand that being seen as a downvoter can bring about some unwanted attention. I have seen it, it does happen, it's never ok. However, when it occurs, we have a process in place to handle it just like any other form of harassment. Upset users are going to be upset regardless of whether or not they can see your vote counts.

I personally take pride in my voting activity, I hope that it shows that I'm active in the community and care about the quality and continued usefulness of the network. If to show it I had to make it part of my About Me... that cheapens it to just me bragging about it rather than it just being a statistic over there someone can look at if they so choose. Just because some portion of the community has decided downvotes are unwelcoming/evil isn't a reason to remove it entirely.


My profile tells a story. It's not just about rep, or people reached, or any other singular metric, it's the whole thing. I have 90k rep, I've answered 2300 questions, I've asked 7, I've cast nearly 40k votes, I've been a member for 10+ years, I've been active today, every bit of it says something about my participation here. Each time we remove a piece, it's poking holes in the story. Removing chapters, anonymizing. I understand sometimes some things have to be removed to protect people from predatory employers or people, etc, but just remember, it's more than just a number. To some people, these things actually mean something. If we're going to remove things, lets at least make sure it's solving a problem that can't be trivially solved in some other way.

4
  • 5
    Some even take pride in keeping an exact ratio
    – Scratte
    Sep 9, 2021 at 16:49
  • 1
    To be fair, changing it to just showing total votes (rather than up vs down) would serve a similar purpose, but I'd lose one of the key signals I look for during mod elections. Maybe make seeing the breakdown the same privilage as seeing vote breakdowns on questions/answers.
    – Kevin B
    Sep 9, 2021 at 17:22
  • 1
    I'm not sure how much gain there would be for a reputation barrier. The Question/Answer breakdowns are currently at 1000 reputation points. All the snark I got from my voting habits were from users with far more than that. I'm not even convinced that it was my habits that did it. I'm more inclined to think they didn't much appreciate me as an individual, and it was just "easy pickings".. or so they thought. There's a million metrics by which one can snark. Not enough helpful flags, not high enough reputation per Answer..
    – Scratte
    Sep 9, 2021 at 17:36
  • 1
    I do share that observation, most of the users who i notice leave downvote comments are users with a lot of rep and a lot of answers, however those are also users who have something to lose; if they're being flagged left and right for leaving rude comments, surely mods will get involved, I'd hope.
    – Kevin B
    Sep 9, 2021 at 17:38
14

I vehemently disagree with this feature request.

I'll categorically respond to your reasons.

Detecting a pattern of fraudulent voting cannot be determined by the total number of votes cast. Whenever a form of targeted voting is investigated, moderators are known to rely on more informative patterns and to escalate to staff when needed. Any flag for moderator attention regarding suspicion of voting fraud should try to state their concerns and suspicions without mentioning these total counts.

This is a false flag. Mere mortals (i.e. non-diamond moderators) have no involvement in the detection of fraudulent voting. The best anyone can do is raise a flag suspecting someone of fraudulent voting, not track it themselves.

We generally agree that comments trying to make a point via the upvote/downvote ratio are not constructive. ...By the answers presented, there is no controversy in the statement that these comments are something that we do not want to keep nor encourage.

I feel like my remark is being overgeneralized here.

First and foremost, any non-constructive comments should be removed. But that doesn't automatically make comments or discussions about the up/down voting ratio non-constructive. Talking about whether or not people are actively curating is critical to discussing or highlighting the effectiveness or ability of us to curate content, and that shouldn't be hidden from public conversation.

Highlighting an individual's up/down vote ratio is not necessarily constructive. Talking about how we're doing on the whole can be constructive.

There's something else about this that I want to be sure that gets mentioned - but a change like this wouldn't just impact Stack Overflow. It'd also impact smaller sites who have very different vibes and cultures on how they use the site. My advice and your perspective for Stack Overflow shouldn't be carelessly applied as a blanket to every site, since not every site's community feels the same way about the up/down ratio.

These numbers tend to create a stigma against users, more than they help educate them.

This doesn't...fix that, though. The biggest stigma comes from the fact that we have a lot of people who believe firmly that downvoting is just plain rude. So, to "balance" this out, they upvote. Sorry, but hiding this count from a profile doesn't mean that the community is suddenly going to start seeing the value in curation, or get past the biases of curating.

The user's acceptance rate was eventually taken out from the asker's user card because it was effectively counter-productive: it resulted in potential answerers deciding to walk away from questions that they could have answered, as well as in askers being pressured and harassed towards accepting answers just to increase this metric.

This was a necessary change because it was front-and-center, and it legitimately led to a lot of meta discussions about whether or not it was worth answering someone's question if their acceptance rate wasn't high enough. The comments I've seen about a users up/down ratio are probably a fraction of this and I would want to see it more of an endemic problem more than a perception before I'd liken it to acceptance rate.

Stack Overflow the company also doesn't have an issue in making unilateral changes to the user profile page, as well exhibited recently.

We need to aggressively discourage them from doing this. Don't acquiesce to sudden and arbitrary UX changes by saying, "Well, we've done this before, so let's do it again?" Do you have any idea how irritating is to have some new person in charge of community come to us and pledge to work with the community or at least not cast us aside, and then allow this whole arbitrary thing to happen on their watch? That doesn't rub me the right way and given that I work in an industry where their PaaS offering would have an impact, interactions like this are pretty valuable - it'd be unwise for them to continue down this trend.

This doesn't stop people from sharing their own voting ratios.

Yeah, but no one's going to because it never comes up in the normal course of conversation, even today.

12
  • 1
    We had a conversation in chat about the voting ratios just yesterday. It does happen naturally.
    – Dharman Mod
    Sep 9, 2021 at 20:57
  • 1
    @Dharman: Probably didn't turn into a finger pointing match, did it?
    – Makoto
    Sep 9, 2021 at 21:01
  • 1
    No, but I hope it encouraged some users to downvote more.
    – Dharman Mod
    Sep 9, 2021 at 21:01
  • 2
    The argument on point 1 doesn't sound coherent. Yes, regular users can play a role in finding and reporting suspicious patterns through flagging. My point is that the total vote count is hardly a good signal for this. On the other points, I guess we'll just agree to disagree.
    – E_net4
    Sep 9, 2021 at 21:29
  • @E_net4thevoter: I'm saying that you don't use the vote counts to determine an odd voting pattern.
    – Makoto
    Sep 9, 2021 at 21:47
  • 1
    @Makoto But that is precisely why regular users don't need it, and can be made hidden.
    – E_net4
    Sep 10, 2021 at 7:10
  • 2
    Vehemence aside, this answer makes no attempt to say why we need this counters at all (for regular users). What benefit do they bring. That they exist is an anomaly, it makes the shield of anonymity of voting less protective. We have anonymous voting so users do not hold back on voting. This counters does not help into that purpose. Why retain it?
    – yivi
    Sep 10, 2021 at 8:48
  • @yivi: While spelunking the blog the other night to politely remind others about some well-established conventions, this particular blog entry about making it public to begin with came across my eye. To refute your chief argument: it is no anomaly. And sure, there's an argument to be made about voting anonymity and the like, but neither the OP nor you provide cases to demonstrate where the system intentionally unmasks you for downvoting.
    – Makoto
    Sep 10, 2021 at 15:27
  • @yivi: Voting itself is still anonymous - you can't get precise info about what you voted for. Voting as an aggregate statistic is still something that should be widely visible to a community so that the community can really see how well it's doing on one of the key things it needs to do - curation.
    – Makoto
    Sep 10, 2021 at 15:29
  • 1
    An aggregate metric doesn't need to fully unmask a voting incident to invite inappropriate speculation. Moreover, the proposal doesn't prevent these metrics from being collected through SEDE, should one really care that much. The only legitimate use case brought up so far was to assess candidates for moderator.
    – E_net4
    Sep 10, 2021 at 15:55
  • 1
    @E_net4thevoter: To be honest with you, I tend to just ignore and/or flag comments that directly attack why I downvoted something. I don't generally leave any way for anyone to directly send me a message asking for an explanation as to why this happened, since I saw from others that this only invites discourse. My perspective is shockingly simple - once you accept that people dislike downvotes and will try to argue with you about them, the idea of doing something about it becomes simpler.
    – Makoto
    Sep 10, 2021 at 16:12
  • @E_net4thevoter: But also too I'm not in the mood to reward Stack Overflow Inc's sudden yet wholly anticipated disconnectedness on making changes to the site as a means to allow this feature request to continue forward.
    – Makoto
    Sep 10, 2021 at 16:13
9

This seems like a case where hiding the information from the public profile page without making it entirely inaccessible via means such as SEDE or the Stack Exchange API (both of which can currently query this) would go a long way. Much like hiding the names of close voters from the post notice, it would put it behind extra effort to retrieve, reducing the number of people who see it and thus the amount of confrontation that is likely to occur over it.

This would also allow users who might want it for some useful purpose—such as for voting fraud investigations or perhaps deciding how to vote in a moderator election—to still get it if needed.

7

Let's not beat around the bush – the point isn't that the information is not useful, that there is precedence, or whatnot. In all of these cases, we could *shrug* and carry on.

The point is this:

Curators who are likely to have cast a larger number of downvotes than upvotes are perceived as grumpy. Salty. Hostile. Psychopath. Or with troll tendencies.

That's not okay. And just hiding the trigger for it will not make it okay either.

3
  • 2
    Changing hearts and minds en masse about the merits of downvoting sounds nice, but is probably infeasible (goodness knows Meta's been trying for years). Since we probably can't do that, making the information less visible seems like a good solution to reducing the amount of drama, hostility, toxicity, etc. that surrounds it.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Sep 9, 2021 at 13:53
  • 13
    @RyanM From what I have seen, people don't need evidence to hunt witches. Or voters. Sep 9, 2021 at 13:54
  • 4
    I kinda see where you're coming from here... This FR is putting people into the closet, where we really just want to deal with the actual harassment, to draw a somewhat sketchy parallel.
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 9, 2021 at 14:01
4

So, this is what I see about your profile. I have to do some effort to go to your activity page and reach your vote counts. It isn't immediately accessible like the close voters were, also there's the framing context. Close voters where shown as the culprits that your answer will be not answered. Going towards your profile with a bone to pick, will give me enough motivation towards finding this information, if I believe that it would help my argument.

Yes, it would be an extra step, but I'm pretty motivated into making the totem of my anger with your likeness of a crab with a hat. I don't think hiding this information would help.

3
  • 7
    This is preposterous! I have not one hat, but two hats.
    – E_net4
    Sep 9, 2021 at 15:10
  • Other than that, I am probably not in my sharpest state of mind right now, but I still fail to understand the point that this answer is trying to make.
    – E_net4
    Sep 9, 2021 at 15:10
  • 3
    @E_net4thevoter hidding the info achieve no purpose. It says so in the last sentence.
    – Braiam
    Sep 9, 2021 at 15:16
3

I am not a fan of removing information, but in this case, I think I have to agree. This metric is not particularly useful to be visible on the user profile.

I do use this metric, so it's not entirely useless. As Jeanne Dark pointed out

"It is not useful for moderation or curation purposes." When witnessing a new user's low quality answer (non-answer or low-quality rip-off of other answer) being quickly accepted and/or upvoted, the OP receive many upvotes quickly and the new user already having cast a matching amount of upvotes, I thought this was useful info to include in a mod flag.

this is useful when looking at voting fraud. However, I was rarely able to extrapolate enough information to be certain. I can still raise a flag without this information.

During elections, it gives an indication of how much users care about the site. My perception is that users who upvote more than downvote, care less about moderation activities.

If we remove it from user profiles, it should still remain available in SEDE and/or in the API.

I also don't think this statistic is doing much harm. You have opened my eyes to other's experiences, but I don't think it's the feeling of the majority that showing this information paints the user in a bad picture.

So, while I wouldn't mind keeping it, if making this information publicly available on the user profile leads to fewer downvotes, then I think it's a good idea to remove it.

13
  • 2
    Maybe the visibility of this information should be hidden behind a rep privilege wall? (Where I'm implying higher rep users are more trustworthy not to abuse the information)
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 9, 2021 at 14:04
  • 1
    It's also useful when determining moderator candidates, as Tom mentioned in the comments above.
    – TylerH
    Sep 9, 2021 at 14:16
  • @Cerbrus - please, don't tell me you really believe high-rep users are any more trustworthy :) I highly doubt tying more privileges to this broken system is going to help anyone Sep 9, 2021 at 14:59
  • 1
    @OlegValter they are by definition more "trustworthy", in terms of being able to trust that they understand the given site and it's norms, whether they intend to follow said norms or not.
    – Kevin B
    Sep 9, 2021 at 15:02
  • 2
    @OlegValter I certainly believe users with rep in the 5 digits are more trustworthy than some rando that joined yesterday.
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 9, 2021 at 15:03
  • 1
    @KevinB you know what I mean :) They are definitely not the ones who understand site norms. Sep 9, 2021 at 15:05
  • @Cerbrus well, any user with any amount of rep is more trustworthy than a random user who just joined. I am just vehemently against adding even more privileges to an utterly broken system that does not have to do anything with merit. Sep 9, 2021 at 15:07
  • 1
    @OlegValter so you agree that higher rep users are less likely to abuse that information, which was the point I was making. Kewl
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 9, 2021 at 15:09
  • @Cerbrus unless you are joking around, this is not my point at all. What I referred to is any amount meaning any participation. It does indicate participation. It is just there is little to no effect on "trustworthiness". It is an indication of accumulated capital, a gamification metric - anything but an indication of whether a user should be entrusted with any power on the network. Sep 9, 2021 at 15:12
  • @OlegValter let’s not derail these comments with a discussion about whether or not the priveleges are broken.
    – Cerbrus
    Sep 9, 2021 at 15:13
  • @Cerbrus sure, have no intention to - just my 2 cents about the "hidden behind a rep privilege wall" Sep 9, 2021 at 15:14
  • 2
    I'd prefer a rep privilege wall, over a "go install this extension" one
    – Kevin B
    Sep 9, 2021 at 15:24
  • @KevinB well that much we agree on. Complete removal is likely unwarranted and will simply lead to a spike in userscripts that bring the metric back. Sep 9, 2021 at 15:27
1

A month has passed since I brought this feature request, and I would like to post an aftermath which summarizes the main concerns regarding this feature.

  • It was confirmed from a moderator that the total upvote/downvote count is a useful metric for identifying voting fraud alongside the other voting pattern tools, so they should definitely stay visible to moderators ¹. I had eventually updated the feature request to make this exception.
  • It is a useful metric during the moderator elections, where the actual candidate is subjected to scrutiny regarding their curation activity. Having a large downvote count is a reasonable indicator of that activity, alongside helpful flags, reviews, edits, etc.
  • Some people take pride in these metrics, which may reveal peculiar numbers that have they no issue in bearing them like a badge. And hidden badges are not very interesting, all right.
  • Although the company hasn't had issues in making unilateral changes with little to no feedback from the community, this is also a modus operandi that we certainly do not want to incentivize.
  • Unreasonable users who try to make some kind of discrimination or shaming based on these metrics are also likely to find some other characteristic to discriminate or shame. We have the means to handle inappropriate statements, and if they persist or become enough of a problem, they ought to be handled like any other code of conduct violation.
  • And to be honest and fair, it's not like non-constructive statements regarding someone's total vote count happen that often. The only major incident in recent times was from a single user, one who was not left unpunished from such commentary.

As it stands, I no longer feel as strongly about implementing this as before. But should it ever be considered upstream, then both counts should still be available via the SEDE API. After all, throwing a feature away which is more useful than it is harmful makes a poor state of affairs.

-11

I believe it shouldn't be public, and in contrast with the other answers, I don't think it should be visible through the API either.

Upvoting/Downvoting breakdown is not useful information. Voting is anonymous for a reason, and it should remain as opaque as possible. Having a vote counter (or two counters, one for each type of post) is bad enough, but acceptable. Having a counter for each type of vote is a step too far.

The main, very real disadvantages, more eloquently expressed in the question are:

  • Users changing their voting patterns because they want to affect this visible ratio (either voting more or less because they take the visibility of this ratio into account)
  • Users being maligned because they "upvote/downvote too much/infrequently".

The alleged "advantages" of having this information available I find tenuous.

  • Mod elections: If some find it useful during elections, maybe it could be made available for mod candidatures. Or candidates could volunteer this information when asked about it. Any mod not wanting to volunteer this would be a data point as well for the electors. Elections happen every few years, and only a handful of users present themselves as candidate. Leaving this thing up only for this purpose makes little sense.

  • "Voting fraud investigations": While I don't deny that in some fringe cases knowing the ratio could conceivably help in raising flags, I'm skeptical about this happening with a significant frequency.

    And if it did, it would mean that anonymity of voting can be broken too trivially, and it's another argument for implementing this change.

For a site where the mantra so often repeated is "focus on the content, not on the user", I find it a bit confusing that some want to keep this, when it provides as close to zero-value as possible.

The argument of "showing/hiding this would make no difference, users would find other reasons to be uncivil, we have tools like flagging to deal with this" could also be made to push against voting being anonymous. But it wouldn't make sense for that either. For many things prevention is much more preferable than the cure.

It also fails because it does not consider the self-censuring aspect. Some users will vote less (one way or another) because this ratio is visible. And we do not want less votes, we want more votes.

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