45

This would allow for a single question that outlines all of the points that are brought up every time this question is re-asked. We could also move some of the (very good) answers from the most recent question on this topic, to this canonical, to alleviate the issue that deleting said question would nuke those answers.

Probably this is a canonical that actually belongs on Meta.SE, but I don't believe that questions can be closed as a dupe of those on another site. I guess we could create the canonical on Meta.SE and have "our" canonical simply contain a link there.

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  • 36
    A canonical? What is this? Civilized society? Mar 1, 2021 at 15:56
  • 5
    This probably is meant as [faq-proposed], but it lacks all the meat. A canonical is not a "feature", though.
    – yivi
    Mar 1, 2021 at 15:57
  • 8
    There really can't be a canonical question and answer for policy/software changes. The chief reason is that : The community changes, and we learn more as we use the software. I can see closing down new discussions on the timescale of once a month or once every 6 months; but once you get older than that there's been enough change that it's relevant to talk about again. Mar 1, 2021 at 15:57
  • 35
    @GeorgeStocker - I get that you really want to get your point across, but Ian's question suggests a canonical for what the current policy is about so as we can avoid rehashing the same arguments for the sake of rediscussing the same things over and over and expect from the asker to make themselves acquainted with it before posting, so we can have a productive discussion (not that it really can be - I am very skeptical that we have any real say in what will be changed). In that regards, I like this Uber Meta wiki very much. Mar 1, 2021 at 16:11
  • 12
    A lot of the points from the Why isn't providing feedback mandatory <...> question's answer can also be copied into this proposed faq.
    – Cerbrus
    Mar 1, 2021 at 16:14
  • 3
    @VLAZ My view is just that, if new users don't read the "official" descriptions, I doubt they'd read a canonical FAQ. I do see the value in grouping together all of the answers users have given on the topic, though, as well as offering a simple duplicate target for similar questions.
    – bbnumber2
    Mar 1, 2021 at 16:51
  • 2
    @bbnumber2 The description of the privilege is a "what"; a FAQ question (should be) a "why". They are different, but complementary.
    – Ian Kemp
    Mar 1, 2021 at 17:05
  • 4
    I'm fine with this as long as we add to harass users as a reason ...
    – rene
    Mar 1, 2021 at 17:13
  • 28
    I think the fact that the "why downvotes" discussion (or its related cousins) comes up seemingly really often is testament enough that an faq addressing it directly would be very useful.
    – zcoop98
    Mar 1, 2021 at 18:48
  • 2
    @bbnumber2 I'm sure we could come up with a much more comprehensive reasoning then "quality, effort, or accuracy of a post".
    – Passer By
    Mar 2, 2021 at 7:17
  • 2
    @PasserBy There might even be some research and hard data available that goes beyond "sounds reasonable and that's how it was always done". Maybe it could be gathered here. Mar 2, 2021 at 10:58
  • 4
    @GeorgeStocker "I can see closing down new discussions on the timescale of once a month or once every 6 months; but once you get older than that there's been enough change that it's relevant to talk about again." - WTF. No, we do not need to discuss if downvotes should exist twice a year. I also don't know what kind of "change" on a monthly timescale you're referring to that would need a re-evaluation of such a basic functionality (last major voting change was the +10 for question upvotes, Nov.2019). And even if we would need to discuss it daily, having a canonical would still be beneficial.
    – l4mpi
    Mar 2, 2021 at 13:04
  • 4
    Having a canonical also does not stop someone from discussing the same topic. It just creates a slightly higher hurdle, as it would require making a case that some aspects of the canonical answer(s) should be re-evaluated for whatever reason. Of course, most current downviote questions already fail at the "read the SO tour page" hurdle...
    – l4mpi
    Mar 2, 2021 at 13:07
  • 2
    @EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica - besides, one of the reasons this proposal exists is that some voiced a worry that the old discussion has gone stale. Instead of going through the Meta drama (as just happened) every time, we can freshen up the FAQ while specifically addressing downvotes. Frankly, I think the old FAQ would be better served as a separate item on "why feedback is not mandatory", which is a standalone and frequently raised issue. Mar 2, 2021 at 13:48
  • 7
    @EJoshuaS-ReinstateMonica this is not a duplicate of your linked question. First of all, this question asks "should there be a canonical" so closing it as a dupe of the canonical does not make sense (see Georges answer where he's arguing for abolishing the canonical - not that I agree with that). Second, the linked question is focused on providing explanations for downvotes, and while the answer also addresses general reasons for why downvotes exist the question would need some editing to serve as a canonical for "why do we not abolish downvotes" .
    – l4mpi
    Mar 2, 2021 at 14:51

4 Answers 4

11

I really like the idea of having a canonical explicitly laying out the reasons we have downvotes on the site, simply because it feels like it's been brought up a number of times lately. As has already been mentioned, the feedback on downvotes FAQ has a lot of good info in it relating to this discussion, but I don't believe it does enough to specifically address outright why we have downvotes at all. This makes sense, since the core of that post pertains to feedback in conjunction with downvotes, rather than just downvotes themselves; it was designed to address a different concern.

The way I see it, there are a few paths we could take going forward:

Option A: Create a New FAQ Entry

We could create a new/ proposed entry for the SO Meta FAQ addressing specifically why downvotes exist and are important for curators, content producers, and the functions of the site as a whole.

As mentioned in the Q above, sentiments and points expressed in answers to the currently deleted, now infamous, abolish downvotes post (screenshot) could be pulled and added to help build a dignified, codified answer to the question "Why are downvotes important on Stack Overflow?"

The reason I think this would be a great option is that it could be crafted to not be a dupe-target for shutting down all future discussion (as has been raised as a concern), and instead to raise points that future readers and site users will need to reckon with if they want to propose changes to the system as it exists today.

The effect of the FAQ doesn't have to be curbing useful discussion, or even preventing changes to the system, but would instead help future discussion be more productive by allowing future posters to address known concerns first, before they propose sweeping changes that may miss the mark.

Option B: Retool Existing Feedback on Downvotes FAQ Entry

We could add this content into the feedback on downvotes FAQ entry, retooling and expanding its scope to make it more applicable to the purpose of downvotes as a whole, so that the information is still housed somewhere relevant, but isn't standing on its own.

Downvote information is certainly related to this post, and the content would probably fit just fine with the right adjustments.

I don't like this as much, however, because it would be hijacking an already widely linked resource and changing its core purpose. This FAQ was created specifically to address the influx of users asking why downvotes can be given without feedback, and to give good reasons as to why it was/ is designed that way. Changing the question would be disregarding that purpose to some extent.

Option C: Do Nothing

We could also decide that this isn't a big deal. Downvotes are already addressed in the vote down privilege guide and the "Why is voting important?" help center article, and maybe we decide that this is indeed enough information as-is.

If this is the case, there's nothing more that needs to be fleshed out or done here, and we'll deal with future questions about downvoting as they come, be they feature-requests or otherwise.

Personally, I don't think this is the case; it's really surprising to me that there isn't much, much more documented about downvotes as a feature than what's said on those two help center pages above. For a feature so ubiquitous on our platform, it's amazing we have so little documented on its purpose.

That said, an FAQ may not be the best way to address this lack of documentation, and maybe we just do nothing for now.


A lot of other discussions have gone on in this thread regarding whether or not a canonical is destructive in this specific case, since it would inevitably be designed to shut down further discussion. I agree that it could be used that way, but I disagree that it must be used that way.

I really think that we can structure an FAQ in such a way that it is more informative than destructive to future discussions. As I mentioned above, if done well, it would simply serve as a starting point for future discussions, something that gets all the right information on the table from the start, so that we can have more productive conversations sooner, which hopefully helps us avoid future dumpster fire threads, while maintaining good ones.

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  • 6
    Methinks the last week showed option C is a no-go - the further it gets, the more divisive the topic becomes. The fact that one mediocre post resulted in a battle-royale spanning multiple Q&As is a clear indication to me we need to do something. Ideally, it would be improving onboarding and improving content-quality checks before posts are being posted, but here we are as this depends on SE allocating developer resources for that (curious where will DV research in Q3 and DV survey in Q4 2020 lead to - if anywhere) Mar 2, 2021 at 19:23
  • 3
    I agree with "it could be crafted to not be a dupe-target for shutting down all future discussion." Answering why downvotes exist doesn't need to make future discussions around them impossible; in fact, I believe answering this question will strengthen future (hopefully more productive) proposals for change, as it provides a series of points that should be maintained.
    – bbnumber2
    Mar 2, 2021 at 19:24
  • 4
    I think that the FAQ/canonical should especially concentrate on why downvotes are good, i.e. how and why they are improving content quality, motivation, amount of knowledge, signal to noise ratio, .... We have them because because someone implemented them and not enough people objected. But what do we actually think we gain by having them and can we prove it. That would be ideal. Mar 3, 2021 at 15:43
  • 4
    @OlegValter "it would be improving onboarding and improving content-quality checks before posts are being posted" I noted that on one of my answer "Stack Overflow mission: be a library of high quality content. We still haven't set askers, and even some answerers, expectations around this"
    – Braiam
    Mar 4, 2021 at 1:42
  • 3
    @Braiam - can't agree more with that. Frankly, zero expectations are currently set. What can I say when the tour purposefully omits downvotes when describing what can happen to posts. Closure of lacking questions is mentioned as a nuisance in small font. Auto checks barely work, etc, etc. But instead of being angry with this, people actively choose to try to undermine the immune system of SO. Mar 4, 2021 at 2:01
6

Preface

I am glad we seem to be ready to move on from battling over a mediocre post dissatisfied with how the voting system currently works to try to find a way to salvage this discussion in a productive and civilized manner.

Finding information on Meta is hard if you haven't been around for a while and do not meticulously bookmark and triage important posts on topics (only a few of which are sufficiently covered by FAQs). My bar looks like this already, but it just scratches the surface:

bookmarks on meta

It is especially hard to do when one takes to Meta to seek satisfaction for being wronged (and let's be honest - apart from tag requests and bug reports most users come to Meta when they feel they wronged: by peers, by moderators, by the voting system, you name it). Those users are not inclined to spend hours digging through a decade of history and carefully analyzing arguments being made. They want to deal with the issue right here and now.

And then all they see is their posts getting butchered in minutes without ever realizing why this is happening or what they did wrong. We then start a fighting contest over their posts until a moderator just locks the post to forever serve as a head on a pole for everyone who dares to approach Meta.

What we could have, is a gentler and more educative way of dealing with posts like the above - we could have a handy explanation of the history of voting, of the policies currently in place (and while we do that - understand if even have a policy).

I see a lot of users when being directed to clear and reasonable explanations of policies and features of both SO and MSO in FAQ are thankful for being provided with a coherent point of reference. Sometimes they still disagree - and this is the point where we can start having a productive discussion.

FAQ items and canonicals

As it seems, there seems to be a conflation of an idea to create a canonical Q&A about downvotes and a FAQ entry. Arguments for and against each one intertwine, but let's not throw all our eggs in one basket.

A FAQ entry is (hereinafter I cite the Uber Meta dictionary):

any meta post linked with the moderator tag [faq]. The Official FAQ is a community-moderated post that attempts to annotate the features and behaviors of all Stack Exchange sites in one central location

Which is precisely the place for an in-depth explanation on "why Stack Overflow has/uses/allows downvotes", because this is a feature of a Stack Exchange site, and this is undoubtedly a behaviour that keeps causing so much confusion about it.

A canonical, on the other hand, is:

One question with one or more high quality (often authoritative) answers which serves to answer the most common (sub)questions about a certain topic. Other questions about the same topic can then be closed as a duplicate of this question

which a FAQ entry might be, but not necessarily is. Should we create a canonical, though, it should not only address how the policy works but also provide responses to common misconceptions and questions users have about the practice of downvoting.

This also means it should be used as a duplicate target when a post does not exhibit any understanding of the workings of voting, but it also should not be used as such for posts actively seeking reevaluation of the guidance listed in such a Q&A. But to be able to reasonably distinguish those they must acknowledge acquaintance with the canonical.


Addressing George's points specifically:

This would apply if and only if decisions were made based on facts on meta. They're not. They're based on a lot of factors

I hate to break the news, but all decisions are based on a large variety of factors subject to change on a whim. And yet, we, as humans, do not embrace the chaos of changing sentiments and opinions but try to make sense of them, to reason about them.

There are always reasons behind the way things work the way they do. Granted, they might be flawed, they can become obsolete, they could just simply be trade-offs (take being able to see voting scores, for example).

Lest we become a mob where decisions are made and discussions are held in a manner where the loudest shouting ("emotions" and "sentiments") or the last one speaking ("the people who visit meta") wins, then we must be able to ground ourselves in reason.

For this ground to exist, we must have a place where reasons for our policies (merits of these policies aside) and systems are laid out in clear and concise language. This is exactly what FAQ-style Q&As provide.

The stated policy is to do that. No one has ever downvoted that policy. Ever. No one has tried to correct that policy to say that canonicals are just signposts that we want people to read

This is wrong three-fold. Firstly, you are yet to provide an answer to the question which puts the "stated policy" part under question:

why you used a faq-proposal-status post never officially marked as faq?

Secondly, and more to the point, no one downvoted the "policy" because the answer is absolutely correct. Here is the part of it you actively choose to ignore:

we aren't posting variations on the same question/answer pair over and over again

This is exactly what the proposal of a canonical for reasons why downvoting exists strives for: to prevent reiterating the same reasons over and over again in different forms.

You keep saying that by this we aim to shut down "new discussions that tread the same ground", but you never say what makes these discussions new if all they do is restate the same reasons on both sides.

Thirdly, you seem to find being "duplicate targets" and serving as "signposts that we want people to read" irreconcilable roles of canonicals, but you seem to ignore that if the post addresses the points in the canonical and contains something unique about the issue aside from circumstances (be it a new argument or a new set of data), then such a post is not a duplicate and should not be closed as such.

And that brings us to the point of intentions. If you sincerely think that the post will be used to shut down any new discussion, this is exactly "assuming bad intentions upfront". Shutting down discussions is an abuse of the close-voting system and should be treated as such - dealt with swiftly by moderators (you were one not that long ago, after all!) when and where it happens, not in a hypothetical situation.

Or are you saying the issue is so dire that the current moderators will not be able to deal with the abuse when it happens?

The rest is a variation of the same premises:

holding to a policy that is 10 years old because it's 10 years old is possibly the worst reason to shut down new conversation

just mixes in two incorrect assumptions. The first one is equating not accepting rehashes to holding to a 10-year old policy, which is not the same thing. The second one is claiming these posts are new discussions while all they do is repeat the same old things again.

Finally, a quick note about this:

should be included in the comments as "Hey, read more about this if you want to hear what we talked about before."

True, they should be included in comments as "please read what we talked about before and address that first" on new discussions. However, restatements of the same old arguments not addressing anything from those canonical posts should be closed against them until they are sufficiently edited to show the requestor understands the history of the problem, but still disagrees with the points being made.


There is also one other thing I would like to receive some clarification on:

Why do we even have FAQ if "answers about policy .. on Meta are counter-productive"?

6
  • You partially answered an Answer? :)
    – Scratte
    Mar 3, 2021 at 0:30
  • 2
    I guess so, I think another meta specifically for that would be too much :) Mar 3, 2021 at 0:47
  • Why stop at 3? :D /s
    – Cerbrus
    Mar 3, 2021 at 10:18
  • 1
    @Cerbrus Even here it grew so out of hand that I am now embarrassed by the sheer amount of mistakes I made writing it :) Mar 3, 2021 at 13:38
  • 1
    It's a well written and very thought-out and reasoned rebuttal, I think it adds a lot to the discussion here :) The only downside of hosting a discussion like this is that there are no good ways to go back and forth, parties get one real answer and responses have to be limited to comments. One of the downsides of bending the rules/ system like this I suppose.
    – zcoop98
    Mar 4, 2021 at 16:54
  • 1
    @zcoop98 thank you :) I feel like highjacking the Q&A format with the second part, though. Meta really deserves better than just a reskin of the main - it is excruciating hard to give an extensive reply to anything with this format. Mar 4, 2021 at 19:43
-1

George Stocker covers the points I would normally make on this kind of question, but I want to be more laconic, if possible.

  • The understated intention is to halt conversations about this. Canonical dupes are meant to prevent us from retreading existing ground or territory with the end goal of being efficient with our time and our resources. This works well for Stack Overflow, since programming questions - like math - often have right answers. This doesn't work as well for Meta, since there are always underlying individual, personable circumstances for each similar looking question about downvotes that can't be hand-waved away.

  • It is not efficient to put this on Meta. By the time someone comes to Meta to complain about this, several opportunities at educating them have already been missed, and Meta has to come along and put a bandage on the whole situation. Problem is, they have a gaping flesh wound and all Meta provides are the bandages no bigger than your pinky nail to cover it up with.

  • You're still not answering the question. I said this time and again by now, but a common pattern of content curation is to just not answer the question. Given that Meta is orders of magnitude smaller than Stack Overflow, the over-optimization on wanting to not answer the question because you don't like it misses, for lack of a better characterization, the last real chance an OP has to understand the situation.

  • You give the company an out. Every workaround that the community comes up with is one less thing that the company has to prioritize or address with some level of urgency. I don't think we should work around this since this is so fundamental to how the network works at all.

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  • 1
    I love this answer. Short and sweet and right on point. Mar 2, 2021 at 19:11
  • 2
    "It is not efficient to put this on Meta" The problem is that the kind of user that comes to meta to complain about downvotes generally isn't the kind of user that reads faqs, help pages, or tours. I'd be very happy if we could somehow prevent those questions, but I don't think that's possible... The best alternative so far would be a canonical we can point'm to if they do complain about downvotes.
    – Cerbrus
    Mar 2, 2021 at 22:25
  • 1
    I disagree @Cerbrus. If the company puts up something in the FAQ or something that can be referenced outside of Meta, then we can just close the question out of hand without having to maintain a canonical, or maintain discussions about the canonical, or anything like that. It would result in less work for the community overall.
    – Makoto
    Mar 2, 2021 at 22:33
  • 1
    Wouldn't that require a new close reason?
    – Cerbrus
    Mar 2, 2021 at 22:45
  • 2
    Maybe...but I don't think it does. Unless I'm missing something, "not seeking input" would be a good fit for someone coming to Meta to complain about the nature of downvotes when it's literally spelled out for them in the FAQ.
    – Makoto
    Mar 2, 2021 at 22:49
  • 2
    I'm not entirely convinced it fits, but it's an option.
    – Cerbrus
    Mar 2, 2021 at 22:50
  • 2
    Really happy I can downvote this. Canonical Q/A don't remove your freedom of expression, they don't halt conversation, they just make it easier to respond. If the landscape changes, then people can just post a new question and make their case. If it's strong enough, then people won't close/redirect it to the canonical. Mar 4, 2021 at 14:59
  • 1
    @GregSchmit: I didn't say anything about freedoms, but there's no doubt in anyone's mind that a question that is closed - even if it's closed as a duplicate - tends to halt conversations about that question. Which means then that you wind up with a situation in which someone decides to voice their frustrations outside of the network, and we feel some type of way about it and ask why they couldn't just talk about it here.
    – Makoto
    Mar 4, 2021 at 17:05
  • @Makoto I don't think you understand why those questions get closed/downvoted. Downvoting exists for a reason: it provides a measure of quality control so wrong answers don't just appear as "less right" answers, and to remove it reduces voting to social media likes. I wish I didn't have to repeat that. I wish there was like, perhaps a canonical answer I could link to. And if someone has such a powerful argument because the landscape has changed to where we need to pivot SO to a social media platform, they can ask a new question and we can still revisit. Mar 4, 2021 at 18:40
  • @GregSchmit: I don't know who you're lecturing to there...but I'm more than familiar with why downvotes exist, why duplicate closure exists, and how all of these mechanisms work. As for the desire to have a canonical, I have been trying to push the notion that it's really the company that needs to do that, and not us - because then there's no need for a canonical to have to maintain, and we can deal with the question as a generic FAQ item as opposed to something that will remain contentious in the community. It's more about setting the policy in stone as opposed to what we've been doing.
    – Makoto
    Mar 4, 2021 at 18:57
  • @Makoto it was a facetious lecture to say that having a canonical would be useful, even in this discussion, that doesn't hamper people's ability to disagree. I would be fine with SO doing it, but your first bullet point and your cosignature on George's answer (which seems to say that it's a good use of time to re-hash considering the removal of downvoting) seems to contradict that position. Mar 4, 2021 at 19:59
  • And specifically I was contradicting that part of your first bullet point that suggests that the downvoting policy doesn't have a "right answer", which I disagree with. People can disagree, that's not the same as saying that no one can be right. Mar 4, 2021 at 20:03
  • 1
    @GregSchmit: If you think for one moment that I am somehow interested in revisiting the removal of voting, you have missed my point entirely. What I'm more interested in are the root causes as to what posts people want to improve which were downvoted, which is always where I've steered the conversation to. I still tacitly disagree with the idea that a canonical question here on Meta will "fix" this, since all it does is - again - allow people to just dismiss those concerns without actually taking the time to figure out the real pain.
    – Makoto
    Mar 4, 2021 at 23:22
-3

I think Canonical answers about policy or feature change requests on Meta are counter-productive. I'm going to spend the rest of this answer going into why that is; and what we can do about it.

First, let's go into why we have canonical posts:

So that we can close new questions as a duplicate of the canonical post.

That's their purpose. That's why they exist.

You don't even have to take my word for it:

Canonical questions are a broad question/answer pair that is intended to be a duplicate target for commonly asked questions, or address a commonly found problem (for Meta Stack Overflow). The intent is that we aren't posting variations on the same question/answer pair over and over again.

It is valuable to note that as of this writing, that answer has 42 upvotes, and no downvotes. Not a person who visited that answer thought it was wrong, and out of over 9000 views, that's a pretty impressive stat.

So now that we've established that the purpose of a canonical post is to be a duplicate target, let's go into why that's a bad idea for policy or feature request changes.

Canonical questions necessarily view meta posts in two dimensions: Question, and answer. I've already talked about how meta's format was a grand experiment that was forgotten and never improved upon, so I don't need to rehash that here; but Canonical question/answer pairs ignore the actual parts of meta that are important: Votes, Viewpoints, and Views.

A single question on Meta Stack Overflow has several dimensions outside of the question text and the answer text. It also has the sentiment people have towards it (gauged by its upvotes and downvotes), viewpoints people have on it (the words they write in response to the question asked), and its views -- how many people at least read what was going on.

Each of these lends gravitas towards a particular request or feature. If, in 2012, 1000 people had downvoted the idea of removing downvotes (hehehe),that's a strong signal outside of any other signal that it's a bad idea. But, if in 2021, 200 people downvote it and 400 people upvote a supposedly duplicate question about it, that's a whole different signal with a different meaning -- a meaning that would be lost by only having a single canonical discussion on the subject.

You see, on meta, time matters. As we interact more with each other and with the site, our viewpoints towards different ideas may change -- I know mine has on several subjects.

Those new iterations of these same old questions give us an opportunity to revisit the idea and bring new people viewing these problems for the first time -- which for a site that's expressly for enacting change and being a hangout place for the community of today -- is an important thing. You see, most of the people who answered about downvotes in 2009, or 2012 aren't here any more. They left. Decisions are made by those that show up, and who shows up is entirely dependent upon a point in time.

Canonical question absolutely have a place for factual information; where there's no room for an opinion -- and that's why they work somewhat well on Stack Overflow (though they have their own issues, but that's for another day) -- but when your site is expressly built around opinions, there is no canonical answer for that -- opinion can shift rapidly, especially as people from the 'old guard' leave and new people come in.

Finally, there's the health of the community to consider. A chief cause of death for any stack or community is to be too insular -- that is, too hostile to new approaches or opinions that it drives fresh blood away; and when the old guard doesn't have the time to work on it any more, there's no one to step in, they were all driven away. Entertaining the conversation doesn't mean things will change; and if the old guard's viewpoint is solid enough that it can handle new scrutiny, that's a good thing. If it can't, the only purpose of a canonical question is to deflect from actually having to defend a policy or feature that should be changed -- whatever that policy may be.

Instead of pushing for canonical posts regarding policy or feature requests; we should try to remember that new people are going to have questions and concerns they bring to meta; and it's far better for us to address those questions as they come up with compassion than it is to shut down the conversation because sigh we had it 4 years ago.

Addressing common objections to getting rid of canonical posts for policy and feature-request changes:

Why are canonical questions counter-productive? We don't want to rehash the same facts or viewpoints over and over!

This would apply if and only if decisions were made based on facts on meta. They're not. They're based on a lot of factors: date and time, outside influences, changes to the people's thinking who are responding on the subject, the people who visit meta, emotions, and other events that have transpired in the intervening time. In other words nothing is static or 'True for all time' because policies and feature request changes that enforce policy are all dependent upon the people using the software; or the people selling the software. The facts can stay the same and the sentiment can still change (there are plenty of historical political examples of this!). Meta is inherently a political sphere: it's a place for the community to be heard.

You're being mean by assuming that people use canonical posts to stop new discussion.

Well. They do. I don't know how much more 'shoot the messenger' you get when you blame me for revealing what happens. The stated policy is to do that. No one has ever downvoted that policy. Ever. No one has tried to correct that policy to say that canonicals are just signposts that we want people to read; not duplicate targets to close new discussions that tread the same ground.

Again, this goes back to the use of the main-site software itself for meta: When you're dealing with facts; and opinion and sentiment don't matter; a canonical question resolves a lot of problems. A Null Reference Exception in C# isn't going to change just because time does. However, the same policy that was acceptable in 2009, or 2016, would absolutely change because of the sentiment of the community over time -- even if all the facts remain the same! Using a canonical as a duplicate target in that case hurts instead of helps. Now, whether that timeframe is 6 months or a year is far less immaterial than the current policy which appears to apply to posts that are years old (4, 7, 10). There's been a lot of churn on meta over that 10 years; and holding to a policy that is 10 years old because it's 10 years old is possibly the worst reason to shut down new conversation about it.

If you believe that canonical questions shouldn't be default duplicate targets; but rather just a nice bulletin board of information, then questions shouldn't be closed against those canonical questions if they're about policy and feature request changes, rather those should be included in the comments as "Hey, read more about this if you want to hear what we talked about before."

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    George, for the love of all things, instead of pushing the point about being "open to change", can you please shed light on why would unifying and clarifying positions on why things the way they are right now are counter-productive? Why do we even have FAQ if " answers about policy .. on Meta are counter-productive"? There are tangible arguments for and against the voting system to change, and yet every time we have to start over and over, and over. What I see as not productive is that it is now close to a whole week that we going in circles - at least a wiki proposal takes us somewhere. Mar 2, 2021 at 14:37
  • 6
    They're meant as a duplicate target to shut down duplicates. Duplicate !== New. If there's "new discussion", that would automatically disqualify the question from being marked as duplicate.
    – Cerbrus
    Mar 2, 2021 at 14:42
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    @Cerbrus Short of new data or data being exposed that none of us have access to, there's not going to be any new information. The change that will make this happen (using this policy as an example) is that the people who vote on it change. That can only happen by bringing it up again -- and yes, there aren't going to be new reasons. It's convenient to say "we're not shutting down new discussion -- just discussion that uses reasons we've already used", but in practice that is shutting down new discussion; due to the other factors I mention (especially since there's not going to be new reasons) Mar 2, 2021 at 14:43
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    If there are no "new reasons", it's not a "new discussion". It's rehashing the same old dead horse. "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results"...
    – Cerbrus
    Mar 2, 2021 at 14:47
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    Can I query why you used a faq-proposal-status post never officially marked as faq (taking the appeal to authority argument merits aside, it is ironic that you do not see how this definition a canonical [also, from 2015] could be incorrect/incomplete)? You also omitted the second part of the answer "posting variations on the same question/answer pair over and over again" which is exactly what people are arguing for here. I do not like to sound so controversial, but you do keep repeating "change can only happen by bringing it up without new reasons" as an axiom. Mar 2, 2021 at 14:49
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    Sure, sentiments can change, but that doesn't invalidate the use of a canonical on commonly asked questions.
    – Cerbrus
    Mar 2, 2021 at 15:01
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    @Cerbrus It does when it's meant to shut down those new questions. It's ok as a sign post ("here's what we talked about previously") but not as a "hey, we're closing this because we talked about it previously and you don't bring up any new reasons that aren't already there." Mar 2, 2021 at 15:03
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    That's you assuming ill intentions. Don't be such a pessimist man, we're all here for the better of the site.
    – Cerbrus
    Mar 2, 2021 at 15:07
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    @GeorgeStocker can you be so kind as to please reply to the "Why do we even have FAQ if " answers about policy .. on Meta are counter-productive"?" part? I am failing to grasp how defining a clear list of arguments a user has to address (or at least read!) is a counter-productive thing to do? Why do open-source repositories (since you used a software allegory multiple times) ask contributors to look through issues? Why do they ask for use cases before jumping ahead to implementing whatever? If all we need is to ascertain if "sentiments" changed, why don't we just run a poll once in a while? Mar 2, 2021 at 15:15
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    Was expecting you to say that. You contradicted so many policies on meta in your time as a mod I couldn't be bothered to count when it hit three digits. There's still a world of difference between a site policy and a site mechanic that is probably singlehandedly the only reason the site hasn't crumbled to the billionth dupe, that people only disagree with because people don't like criticism. The post you defended to undelete? It's got several answers saying the same thing all the other answers to all the similar questions do. Nothing new in arguments on either side.
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Mar 2, 2021 at 19:23
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    You know, you say policies change, but when arguments don't change, why shouldn't we have a canonical? It saves us hours of arguing and spirals into other questions over other meta disagreements.
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Mar 2, 2021 at 19:23
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    And while I'm at it, let me blanket-bomb the obvious counterargument that "well, if the arguments don't change, there's no reason why we shouldn't change" -- I mean arguments on both sides. "downvoting is toxic" - stems from people disliking critisism and misunderstanding the system. "Demotivating". "No intent differences". "Easy to abuse". "Anonymous people being cowards". The list goes on and on and on, and there's literally nothing new in arguments on that side either. We don't need to create new system arguments when the opposition's arguments remains identical.
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Mar 2, 2021 at 19:31
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    Ergo, we can make a canonical and not miss out on any "new discussion" - there isn't any, and definitely not in the one you protected. If there, some day, is a new discussion that actually takes a new stand that isn't a blatant rant or system complaints over personal experience based on misunderstanding the system, then we can cross that bridge when we get there.
    – Zoe is on strike Mod
    Mar 2, 2021 at 19:32
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    @Nick That post just basically just says "This is a feature. You can use it". It speaks nothing of the balance. Nor the differences between main and meta. If I've learned nothing else, I've learned that learning by doing is always a bad idea here. Also, there are 2,433 results on declined flags. I'll get back when I've read them.
    – Scratte
    Mar 2, 2021 at 22:12
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    Really happy I can downvote this. The issue of downvotes has a right answer. If the software changes so drastically that removing downvoting (turning upvotes into meaningless social media likes) is actually a good idea (probably never will be), then someone can just create a new post and make their case that the landscape has changed. Mar 4, 2021 at 15:00

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