31

I recently came across the tag while reviewing suggested edits. Somebody wanted to add to a question.

Thinking I'd spotted something that should probably be setup as a tag synonym, I had a closer look, and seems to be horribly ambiguous.

From just the first page of results when I clicked into it, I had the following (non exhaustive) list of technologies:

I decided to go over the questions for burnination for it:

Does it describe the contents of the questions to which it is applied? and is it unambiguous?

It can describe the contents of the question, but at least in the case of the databases there is an alternative tag which should probably be used instead. I feel just re-tagging a subset of these questions would be insufficient due to these technologies still having triggers and people are not necesarily going to read the full description when writing their question.

It is very much not unambiguous. In the context of the databases it is referring to performing a stored procedure upon insert/update/delete. In the case of C# it is apparently a reference to the Trigger Class, some of the questions used it to refer to a generic meaning of the word "trigger" ("How do I trigger x").

Is the concept described even on-topic for the site?

While the concept (usually) seems to be on-topic for the site, I feel technology-specific tags would be a better approach due to the wide-spread nature of the word.

Does the tag add any meaningful information to the post?

While the tag adds meaning, I again feel like technology specific tags would be add more meaning. If I saw a post tagged , , and I would need to read the entire question just to understand the context of

Does it mean the same thing in all common contexts?

It does mean the same thing in all common contexts, but there are a multitude of contexts for this tag.


has 14,711 questions, and while it fails to smash all the criteria for burnination, I feel it hits enough of them to warrant a discussion on the subject.

8
  • 26
    Pull the [triggers]!
    – honk
    Feb 14, 2019 at 14:43
  • 27
    This tag [triggers] me
    – Machavity Mod
    Feb 14, 2019 at 23:08
  • 11
    This tag [triggers] a burnination. Feb 15, 2019 at 1:57
  • 4
    "It does mean the same thing in all common contexts, but there are a multitude of contexts for this tag." No. This question is asking about consistency across different contexts. It means different things in each of the contexts to which you refer, so the answer to this question is, "No, it does not. It means different things depending on the context."
    – jpmc26
    Feb 15, 2019 at 3:11
  • Whatttt my top tag is triggers! Feb 15, 2019 at 6:31
  • @jpmc26 I fundamentally misunderstood that question it seems :)
    – Scoots
    Feb 15, 2019 at 9:04
  • 4
    These [trigger] happy burninations!
    – hat
    Feb 15, 2019 at 12:26
  • 1
    If I saw a post tagged c#, postgresql, and triggers I would need to read the entire question just to understand the context of triggers This is a example of a bad question or it's sufficient for the answerer just to know that a trigger is involved. In any case, only two questions
    – TheMaster
    Jul 17, 2020 at 15:28

5 Answers 5

11

This doesn't look like fun - ~14,700 questions exist which are tagged with this.

The big issues that I see are that there's some confusion around and , given that those triggers are typically written in . But not many people know this and assume it's a typical database trigger.

I reject the notion of the tag as that'll make the problem a whole lot worse (and holy crap that's here too, it should be cleaned up), and instead vote that we do a bit of clean-up on this tag. There's some low-hanging fruit in the database-specific tags - namely, and can be taken care of with .

But this is a fairly large effort. Good to bring it to our attention.

8
  • 4
    "But not many people know this and assume it's a typical database trigger." What's a "typical" database trigger? PostgreSQL forces you to invoke a function. SQL Server has you write T-SQL (which is similar in concept to writing PLSQL). MySQL seems to have the option to either use its procedural language or some kind of SET statement that changes column values. So they all have procedural code in some form or another. What's weird or confusing about Oracle's?
    – jpmc26
    Feb 15, 2019 at 2:32
  • 5
    The database-trigger wiki could maybe use some clean up, but it still articulates the concept pretty well: "A database-trigger is procedural code that is automatically executed in response to certain events on a particular table or view in a database." I really do not see the problem here. It's a common software topic and it's useful to know that someone is asking about DB triggers before diving into a question or when searching for one. I really have no idea what you're talking about with either of those complaints.
    – jpmc26
    Feb 15, 2019 at 2:33
  • 7
    I also have no idea why you're advocating for RDBMS specific tags for DB triggers. I can see no advantage to postgresql-triggers over just postgresql and database-triggers. In fact, that's markedly worse since it won't notify postgresql watchers. The fact postgresql-triggers has only 6 questions at the moment suggests most people are not inclined to use it, either. I would argue there's nothing about PostgreSQL's triggers that makes them an inherently different concept from database triggers in general.
    – jpmc26
    Feb 15, 2019 at 2:42
  • 1
    @jpmc26: Concept-wise, sure. But that would lead to a slippery-slope argument of C being like Java (which, in history's eyes, had syntax intentionally like C to get more adoption of Java). Having written triggers for Postgres, MySQL and Oracle, I can tell you that concepts is about where the similarities end.
    – Makoto
    Feb 15, 2019 at 3:17
  • 5
    That doesn't change the fact that database triggers are already a very narrow well understood concept. By that logic, we should burn sql, since the dialects are so different in practice that an answer in one almost never applies directly to another DB. There's enough commonality that if I say "database trigger," it doesn't matter what DB you're familiar with; you're still going to know what I'm talking about. I'm also confident that we won't be going off the cliff trying to combine c and java anytime soon.
    – jpmc26
    Feb 15, 2019 at 3:19
  • I think it's a bit unfair to assume that someone who's well versed in Oracle triggers could answer questions about Postgres or MySQL triggers. At a minimum I don't want to create another meta-tag out of this whole exercise.
    – Makoto
    Feb 15, 2019 at 3:23
  • 7
    "I think it's a bit unfair to assume that someone who's well versed in Oracle triggers could answer questions about Postgres or MySQL triggers." As far as I know, this is not a criteria for tag quality. We could say the same thing about a C expert answering loop questions in Python, and an NUnit expert probably can't answer questions about unit-testing in RSpec. Are you arguing for the removal of all tags that don't refer to a specific technology? Because that seems like a huge change to current norms. (Also, it's not a meta-tag. It attempts to describe the content of questions.)
    – jpmc26
    Feb 15, 2019 at 3:32
  • 1
    Today [trigger][database-trigger] returns 238 questions
    – Wicket
    Jul 17, 2020 at 15:54
5

Is vague and unspecific?

excerpt states:

Triggers are rules, that when they evaluate to true perform one or more actions

Given that definition, The tag is valid with all of those related tags in your question. If there are rules, that evaluate to true, then more actions are performed.

It's a well defined specific concept known in a variety of different languages with differences among languages. It refers to 1 concept and 1 concept only. It means the same thing in all questions. A comparable concept would be , a specific concept of "collection of items" with differences among languages

Isn't a meta tag?

No. It's true that can't be a standalone tag just like , but that's not the only criteria for a meta tag. is not a meta tag as it is about the content of the question rather than the type/nature of the question. Cody Gray puts it nicely here:

a simple misunderstanding of what was meant by a "meta tag". Consistent with the definition of the Greek-derived prefix, "meta", a "meta tag" is one that describes the nature or type of a question, rather than its content. Examples of meta tags are , , , , , , and so on. It is not as simple as "a tag that cannot stand alone as a question's sole tag", .... as having multiple tags, which is why we allow up to 5 tags per question in the first place.

-Cody Gray

Isn't a dependant tag?

you can't tell what the question is about unless they're paired with some other tag (or several of them). These tags are a problem because people don't realize this and will often use that as the question's only tag

-comment below

Yes it is a tag which cannot be used standalone. If that's the only case to be made to burn this tag, Similar popular dependant tags like ,,, should be burnt as well!(None of those tags would work on it's own). has around 500 questions tagged with only , mostly unanswered. But do we just create ultra specific tags to solve this?

To quote Cody again,

It's the same reason why we are fine with and tags, instead of a tag. You can use in conjunction with any programming language tag that supports pointers. There is no universe in which it is better to have separate *-pointer tags for each programming language.

-Cody Gray

Is there a problem with specific tags?

While a specific tag like is a noble approach,

  • Users would prefer a simple tag like . This would cause significant burden on tag editors.
  • Consider a parent tag like , then version tag like and . The problem with a specific tag like is that they also need to be tagged with and . Otherwise the question might not reach the expert watchers in (33000 watchers vs at 1 watcher).

Why can't we use high specific tags along with parent tags or what's wrong with a more specific tag?

For one thing, the limit of 5 tags per question will limit the number of tags that might be added. If the language and it's version takes 3 tags, you're left with only 2 tags for the specifics of the question.

Does cause harm?

The main harm trigger causes is that it is used instead of more specific, more useful, more meaningful tags. database-triggers is a fine example of a more specific one.

-jpmc26 a previous answerer

If more specific, more useful, more meaningful tags is actually more useful, then yes. However, More specific tags have the same, if not more harm.

Do "more specific" tags cause harm?

Consider again the more-specific,-more-useful,-more-meaningful tag advocated: , a fine example of such qualities. Currently there are only three questions tagged with this tag "only":

  1. Trigger to insert new quote number in this format
  2. Create After Update Trigger that fires only when a certain field has changed value
  3. UPDATE trigger that then replicates update to other tables with same guid rows

Let's see if the provided alternate solves any of the problems: ambiguity and independency. These questions have very low views(at the time of writing), zero answers and a comment on one of those questions stating

Can you please add which product you are using like sqlserver,oracle,mysql,postgres

Clearly the advertised benefits is not seen in any of these questions. Infact, it causes the same, if not more harm. More harm because it actively hides the question from potential answerers in the main/parent tag.

Consider another example suggested by @Makoto . This tag has only 1 watcher after a year, has only 17 questions with no wiki or usage guideline. Although the tag seem to have solved ambiguity, any question tagged only with this tag is highly unlikely to be answered because of near zero watchers of this tag causing real harm. And almost all questions tagged with need to be tagged with ,, to have any exposure to potential answerers.

How about even more specific tags to solve the problem?

How about we create ?. Maybe if that isn't enough, how about ? Where does it stop? The amount of combinations will be exponential. Even if we branch like that, would the question be answered? Will there be enough answerers/watchers for each of those tags? No. There isn't enough views even on . Thus we can clearly see specific tags doesn't solve the problem at all.

What's the solution?

Specifics should be included in the body of the question. Tags shouldn't be used to replace good question writing. A good question is expected to have the version of the language they're using. When is added, it is expected of the asker to explain what type of trigger it is and how it is used. Branching tags like these to avoid bad questions is not a good solution.

Summary:

is a specific and well defined concept like . Specific tags such as cause more harm with no visible profit. I propose that the tag should instead be burninated.

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  • It looks that you are describing triggers as a meta-tag.
    – Wicket
    Jul 17, 2020 at 15:43
  • 1
    @Rubén No. That's one of the criteria for meta tags. But that's not the only criteria
    – TheMaster
    Jul 17, 2020 at 15:48
  • 1
    Being a well defined category is a quality of tags, triggers alone isn't "well defined". It can be interpreted to mean anything in many context.
    – Braiam
    Jul 17, 2020 at 15:50
  • @Braiam It can only be interpreted as "rules, that when they evaluate to true perform one or more actions". Nothing more. Nothing less. It's well defined.
    – TheMaster
    Jul 17, 2020 at 15:53
  • 2
  • 1
    Not only meta tags get zapped from the system. You are using the fact that the tag isn't a meta tag to argue against deletion. Actually, a tag has to be useful without other context, otherwise it becomes a dependent tag: Meta-tags are actually a subset of a larger problem that I usually call dependent tags. These are tags that don't say anything by themselves - you can't tell what the question is about unless they're paired with some other tag (or several of them). These tags are a problem because people don't realize this and will often use that as the question's only tag.
    – Braiam
    Jul 17, 2020 at 17:34
  • 1
    This tag doesn't carry any useful meaning without combining with other tags. Useful being the keyword here. Looking at this tag alone I can't figure out if I have the knowledge to answer the question. Other tags don't have this problem.
    – Braiam
    Jul 17, 2020 at 17:36
  • 1
    @TheMaster How a concept shared in several categories (remember, we are talking databases, applications and low level languages) is a "specialized" tag? Specialization means being very good at one thing, this tag fails in this aspect. Anyways, this tag isn't a well defined category, it shouldn't exist in first place. We wouldn't have this argument if the tag wasn't created, and that's a pretty good indication that it wasn't useful to begin with.
    – Braiam
    Jul 17, 2020 at 18:26
  • 2
    @Braiam I disagree. It's both well-defined and specialized. It is created and still exists for a very good reason: need. The alternative solutions are even more grievous as explained in my previous comment.
    – TheMaster
    Jul 17, 2020 at 18:34
  • 1
    @Braiam Just one question: Are you in favor of scrapping all dependent tags like arrays for example?
    – TheMaster
    Jul 17, 2020 at 22:33
4

Yes, should be burned.

is, as you say, vague and unspecific. It refers to many different concepts depending on the context.

The main harm causes is that it is used instead of more specific, more useful, more meaningful tags. is a fine example of a more specific one. Some questions I see are asking about executing actions based on a schedule, which would be better suited to or similar. Others refer to executing an action as a response to some other action in a UI; I'm not sure what tag would be appropriate for those. We may need to identify better tags for other concepts as well.

Yes, burning it would be a large effort. At the same time, there's no effective way to just "clean up" the tag. It's too vague to even put a useful wiki on it. Anything we might try to define it to be consistent with all these meanings would be useless. (Besides that, the answer to a good change being too much work is to implement better tools and processes around it make it simpler and less effort to do, not ignore the problem.)

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  • 4
    [triggers] is a bad tag, but still a question tagged [database] and [triggers] will contain the information. Reviewing 14.700 questions to change to [database-triggers] seems like a waste of resources considering all our other problems. Too me, this tag is not worth a burnation effort, it would need to encourage off-topic question or similar. If we like to improve the tagging in this case we need need to find another solution as synonyms etc. Feb 15, 2019 at 8:11
  • @PetterFriberg Sounds like you're requesting better tools and processes. ;) If your position is that it's just too much work, then I'd say we should decide whether it's a good idea, and then put it on some kind of waiting list until we get better mechanisms. Probably what we really need is some kind of easy mass edit system. E.g., you can replace trigger with database-triggers if the question is also tagged with one of the major RDBMSes. That would definitely help work through them faster and narrow down to just the problem ones quicker.
    – jpmc26
    Feb 15, 2019 at 8:50
  • @PetterFriberg Granted, a mass edit like that wouldn't fix other issues on the posts, but let's be realistic. Those problems aren't going to get fixed either way. Why let that be a reason to not improve what we can? The whole burn process is just fundamentally screwed up. It's like SO doesn't even want curation of tags at all.
    – jpmc26
    Feb 15, 2019 at 8:53
  • Well for certain tags (generate off-topic question etc) the burnation system can be useful, however for this kind of tag according to me it just is not worth the effort to review 14.700 question. SE staff seem to have some type of retagging system. Probably however to use this we need some type of answer that tells exactly how to use it, hence retag all question with... to ... etc. Feb 15, 2019 at 9:21
  • @PetterFriberg if the staff just poof-ed this tag, do you believe it would produce more harm that what it is inflicted by existing?
    – Braiam
    Jul 17, 2020 at 18:27
  • 1
    @Braiam first of all Hi, interesting ping 1 year later. We had a time where we had Shog9 who could make some updates switching tags etc, that time is over.. if you hope some will do something with this tag... well good luck Jul 17, 2020 at 19:02
  • 2
    @PetterFriberg well, why don't we ask SE to give us the tooling. Yeah, they can ignore us, but at least we can try.
    – Braiam
    Jul 17, 2020 at 20:56
  • Related What's the stance on Overloading Tag Meanings
    – Wicket
    Jul 20, 2020 at 18:34
1

Addressing tag burnination criteria

Is the concept described even on-topic for the site?

Yes, it is on-topic: a valid programming concept is on-topic on Stack Overflow. Currently, there are 4 criteria for question being on topic. Can questions about triggers be about:

  • a specific programming problem? Yes
  • a software algorithm? Yes
  • software tools commonly used by programmers? Yes
  • a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development? Yes (out of 16K questions 68.4% are answered - which is a general ratio of answered questions that a lot of tags share)

At the very least community considers it to be: only 1% out of 15 976 questions posted have been closed as off-topic. The exact number perfectly describes the situation: "See other", if you want to find an off-topic question. To compare, has 7%, has 5%, 4%, and share 3%, same 1%.

Does it describe the contents of the questions to which it is applied?

Yes, it does describe contents. Since failing to describe contents of a question is also a criteria for being a meta tag0, let us look at what a truly meta tag is. Jeff cited an "absolutely brilliant post by Aaronut" in his "The Death of Meta Tags" blog post years ago:

they [meta tags] describe some other aspect of the question, like the author’s skill level, or the author’s motivation for asking it, or generally what “kind” of question <...>

Does describe the motivation for posting? No. Does it describe what type of question the post is? No. Does it represent the asker's skill level? No, it does not. Does it look anywhere similar to , , and ? No!

Also, 86% of questions tagged with and are not closed, deleted, or downvoted contain "trigger" in them1. Only 50% of -tagged questions contain "html" in them for that matter.

and is it unambiguous?

Yes. The OP states the "apparently a reference to the Trigger Class" as a problem, but what is problematic with that? Firstly, it is not specific to C#. Secondly, it means a class that "applies property values or performs actions conditionally". Just what a tag wiki says it should be - a rule that conditionally performs an action. Also, it is not a "single" class, see: MultiTrigger, EventTrigger ("a trigger that applies a set of actions in response to an event"), DataTrigger, and MultiDataTrigger.

Should the tag necessarily stand on its own?

The second criteria for being a meta tag is "If the tag can’t work as the only tag on a question, it’s probably a meta-tag". Can the tag work as the only tag on the question? Yes, it can, it provides info on what the question is about.

Does this mean that it should be enough to tag a question with a single tag? No, it does not: , , , ,, {{insert your language}} do not sufficiently describe what the question is, but they do when combined with more specific tags. Does this make them more or less meta? Not the slightest.

Does the tag add any meaningful information to the post?

Yes, it does. It tells us that the question is about triggers. Which ones? This is what language/product/platform tag should tell us. Should the existence of tags that "add more meaning" have a say in the tag being burned? No, burnination process considers the tag by itself and its usage.

Does it mean the same thing in all common contexts?

Yes, it does, it means "rules, that when they evaluate to true perform one or more actions" exactly. Yes, the implementation and roles differ in databases for database triggers, functions are triggered differently for function triggers. The definition stays the same.

What about other tags that represent concepts with implementations that differ from language to language or platform (see "abstract concepts" part for usage data below)? To name a few:

"A logical subdivision of a larger, more complex system"
"series of data elements which can be accessed in a serial fashion"
"strategy for deferring operations with high latency or low priority"
"sequence of functions (or the equivalent thereof), composed so that the output of one is input for the next"

Are they all implemented differently in different contexts? Yes. Do they mean one thing? Yes. Same goes for : they are maps of "events" to "actions" in all contexts.

So, should the tag be considered for burnination?

When a tag fails 4 out of 4 criteria for being burned, it should not even be discussed, let alone considered to be. Let us see the tags that get burned (about a half of the first page):

Now see the ones that got declined (I could not make myself to go even through the third of the first page, I apologize):

Do you see a pattern? The latter ones describe a programming concept, product, framework, or an area of programming. These tags are what SO is all about, why should be any different?

Finally, "how do I trigger X" is a perfectly valid question about triggers (if shows research effort, of course). One of the most popular questions about is exactly that (and is, ironically, tagged with ). If you dislike , how about ? Same thing there.


Does having a multitude of contexts matter?

No. There are 9833 unique tag combinations for just for questions tagged only with "technologies" listed in the original post. Does this make the tag better or worse? No. It just states that the concept that the tag represents is widely used.


Can or a similar tag replace it?

No, as triggers are not database-specific only. There is a whole other type of usage: triggers that invoke functions in response to events or HTTP requests that have nothing to do with databases. Some examples of that are (the following graphs use the query of questions posted with tag and a "trigger" keyword in question body):

steadily rising over 3 years:

cloud-functions-triggers-usage

trigger usage rising as well:

azure-functions-triggers-usage

and, lastly, so do triggers show a rise:

google-apps-script-triggers-usage

At the same time questions tagged with that contain "database" in them decline:

triggers-and-database-usage

For every *-trigger branching tag we add there is a possibility that another, unexplored (or non-existing) use case can be found that will eventually become popular. If the is too broad, and we need individual tags, where does the branching stop, do we need , or ? Or ? The list can go on.

Do more specific tags exhaust volume of the concept of triggers?

No, as shown with an example of . If the change was approved last year, we would lose a reference point to a prominent use case. One might say that we could add a , but there is no guarantee that these are the only possible use cases.

Does the tag correctly express the content of the question?

Yes, it does, as questions about triggers are sufficently (strict sense: meaning is not lost when substituting a single tag with these two tags) described with:

  1. database-specific tag like + type-specific tag like + for database triggers
  2. + for Azure Cloud Functions triggers and bindings
  3. + for Google Cloud Functions triggers
  4. + for simple/installable triggers

Does using hinder access to information from tag wikis?

No, as this tag can be an entry point with short usage guidelines and descriptions of technologies implementing the concept. A pending attow (it is currently in contention between parties) suggested edit on the wiki shows how this entry might look like (it is not ideal, and it would be perfect if domain experts participated in improving each section).

Moreover, the information could be expanded upon in platform/product or language (depending on which use case is more prominent) wikis to allow for more in-depth descriptions, lists of canonical Q&As, and more.

Do technology-specific tags exist and how are they doing?

Several technology-specific tags exist (where technology or platform name is suffixed with tag). The usage of these tags is confusing because it leads askers to omit the main product, language, or platform tag from the question as they see it embedded in the tag name.

They are also not actively used (see usage query and zero-answers query2 used for the graphs below) and contrary to the claim that watchers target these questions have higher "unanswered" ratios.

used with show stagnation (especially compared to the booming growth of questions about azure function triggers). Attow, there are 44 questions only with 40.9% of them unanswered and 11% of 43 posted completely missed, while the ratio of unanswered questions with is only 35.3% and 13% respectively of more than 90K questions.

azure-triggers-questions using azure tag

Next, we have with showing slight growth, but the tagging effort goes to waste since it has 63% (!) questions unanswered with 24% of 25 posted missed completely and 0 watchers attow compared to 35.3% and 13% on the main tag.

azure-blob-trigger-questions usign azure tag

used with flatlined from the start. Attow, there are only 8 questions, 50% unanswered and 14% without answers to 4903 quesions compared to ratio of being only 31% unanswered and 11% with 0 answers of 4,931 questions.

cosmosdbtrigger-questions using cosmosdb tag

with fared slightly better, and with 17 questions attow, only 35.3% went unanswered and 23% of them having 0 answers. That said, main has less than usual 28.1% ratio of unanswered questions and 14% with no answers with huge 120K total.

postgresql-trigger-with-postgre

with looks promising with its usage improving, and out of 32 questions attow 50% are unanswered and 15% of them no answers, while main has 57.4% unanswered to 1734 total and 22% with no answers to 1728.

apex-trigger-questions-with-apexx

usage with is inconsistent, and its stats are not good either: with 52.3% unanswered of 107 questions attow, 22% of 105 have no answer at all. Both its "parent" tags do better: has 45.4% and 22% to 41K, while - 33.9% to 1,782 total and 13% no answers to 1779.

gerrit-trigger-questions using gerrit tag

usage with did not hold and with simply flatlined. Record 69.6% out of 23 questions are unanswered and 43% them do not have an answer. stats can be seen above, while has 41% out of 4901 questions unanswered and only 16% of 4892 with zero answers.

jenkins-jira-trigger-questions using jenkins tag

jenkins-jira-trigger-questions using jira tag

Special mention goes to which is already a synonym of and to , that has only 2 questions, both answered and correctly tagged. That said, these 2 questions could join the steady flow of Azure questions about HTTP triggers (i.e. that contain "http trigger" and are tagged with ):

azure questions with http trigger in body

We can keep these tags, but they should at the very least be synonymized (either with general or type-specific versions).

Do other abstract concept tags exist and how are they used?

Yes, they do. If a tag represents a well-defined3 concept, it will be created and used however general it might seem, provided that different context it is used can be reduced4 to an unambiguous definition (all definitions are taken from wiki excerpts which askers usually see):

"ordered linear data structure consisting of a collection of elements"

arrays-ten-year-graph

"entity that can be manipulated by commands in a programming language" (but wait, isn't it usage steadily declining? Yes, but the reason is the rise of functional programming as compared to OOP - see next graph for confirmation)

object-ten-year-graph

"portion of code intended to carry out a single, specific task" (not the best definition, but unambiguous nonetheless)

function-ten-year-graph

"programming paradigm oriented around data flows and the propagation of change"

reactive-programming-ten-year-graph

"database is an organized collection of data"

database-ten-year-graph

And, finally, the tag in question: "rules, that when they evaluate to true perform one or more actions"

triggers-ten-year-graph

Some people are intersted in anything databases, some in database triggers, some in DML triggers only, some want to reduce the scope to MS SQL Server or Oracle DB. We have tags for each level of interest: or or or whatever combination needed.

Summary and conclusion

To sum up, the tag:

  1. misses all 4 criteria to be burninated
  2. misses all 2 criteria to be considered "meta"
  3. represents a valid programming concept among others
  4. cannot be replaced by a sum of its branching tags
  5. has a good track record of questions being on-topic and answerable

should be kept, possibly cleaned up a little. If any, specific tags should be either tended to (that means answering, adding parent tags, editing in shape, etc), synonymized or pruned (burned).

Please, stop being so -happy about abstract concepts. If we only have programmers that "work at Google", "get up early", "play music" or "know SQL", it does not mean we should forbid "programmer" and use "programmers-who-play-music-that-work-at-google".


0 If anyone knows how to formally define "does it describe contents" other than literally, let me know.
1 Meta tag section is under construction
2 "% unanswered" questions was taken from tag "Top users" page. "% with no answers" - from SEDE query which has a weekly delay, so both totals are provided for comparison (where < 10K questions exist and numbers differ).
3 "well-defined" means "clearly expressed, explained, or described". If "rules, that when they evaluate to true perform one or more actions" is not well-defined, I do not understand what being clear is. 4 I say "reduced" to acknowledge that general concepts mean different things in different contexts, but they share the same core definition.

32
  • 4
    Cool data, but... doesn't explain what value gives the triggers tag. Remember, there's no tag hierarchy, and as said in the help center tags should represent "well defined categories" (I'm still wondering why not call them categories, since that's the purpose). A tag that has to be combined with others to convey meaning is called dependent tags, and they aren't good tags either for several reasons.
    – Braiam
    Jul 19, 2020 at 2:37
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    @Braiam thank you. I do know there is no tag hierarchy, if something in the answer suggested to you that I treat it that way, I apologize and can correct the wording. That said, the second part of the answer deals with representing well-defined categories and advocates that the triggers is a well-defined one that is also widely used. As for the builder tags, I also did not talk about "builder" tags, only for combining tags that one can use to narrow a query Jul 19, 2020 at 2:54
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    @Braiam - google-maps + api for me are builder tags, because they build one entity, google-maps-api-3 (regardless of the merit of having 3 at the end). triggers + sql is something that descibes a context in which triggers are used, "triggers as defined and used in SQL" and thus do not describe an entity. I will update the answer to include that clarification Jul 19, 2020 at 3:06
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    @Rubén - and I think I got the meaning of your comment now. No, it does not stem directly from the question, it considers a hypothetical solution. I should probably move it to later parts of the answer Jul 19, 2020 at 3:11
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    @Braiam You still haven't answered my question. Are you suggesting we do away with array because it is a dependent tag? doesn't explain what value gives the triggers The question you should rather be asking is "what value does more specific tags like database-triggers give". And does it do more harm than the concept tag triggers and weigh them both accordingly. The data here is very clear on which does most harm.
    – TheMaster
    Jul 19, 2020 at 8:47
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    The section under "Do technology-specific tags exist and how are they doing?" could be made into a table to make it clear.
    – TheMaster
    Jul 19, 2020 at 8:49
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    @TheMaster look at my posts in meta SO. I've answered your question before you asked them.
    – Braiam
    Jul 19, 2020 at 11:17
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    @Braiam - arrays is just one of the examples, as are events, as many other concepts. I can change to something more neutral, if that is a problem, the argument will stay the same. I am not omniscient, and I know of an only one meaning: a rule that executes/changes something in response to an event/message/request. Re:API Huh? I just mentioned a clear example of an entity that is sometimes referred to via builder tags (and most often - at the same time with api-specific tag), it just came to mind first as I still get nightmares about google-api. Jul 19, 2020 at 11:29
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    @Braiam Given two answers of the triggers being well defined, why do you think it is not well defined and not comparable to arrays? Arrays mean different things in different languages as well. There is a rule, which when satisfied, a trigger is executed. What is vague about that?
    – TheMaster
    Jul 19, 2020 at 11:31
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    Find me a question where no language/framework/library/api/etc. tag would apply for a trigger question and we have a proper usage of a tag. Otherwise, it doesn't work as the only tag of the question.
    – Braiam
    Jul 19, 2020 at 11:32
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    I fundamentally disagree with the position "either tag stands on its own and only on its own or it should be burned". Nothing implies it: burnination rules do not imply it. Tag usage does not imply it. Hard data does not imply it. The fact that there only exist countries does not mean we must refer to countries as "usa-country", "germany-country", etc. This is a contrived example, but is on the point: france + country is just as sufficient. So are "triggers", "events", etc. Jul 19, 2020 at 11:41
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    keyword, reference pointers. They all rarely (or never) make sense by themselves, yet they exist and thrive. More so - they are valid programming concepts. And they mean different things in different languages / contexts. Still, they share the same core concept. I do not know of any case where trigger would be referred to so distant of a meaning that it stop being about invoking an action upon an event or something similar (condition match, for example). Jul 19, 2020 at 11:52
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    And, finally, please mind that "f the tag can’t work as the only tag on a question, it’s probably a meta-tag" is designed to handle tags like [beginner], [subjective], and [best-practices]. It does not deal with a de facto existence of such questions. It says that a question with, say, [beginner] tag says little nothing about the post (other than "probably avoid if you want an interesting one" - which is meta 100%). A question with only arrays, object, function, events, triggers says something what the question is about, it is still a valid question... Jul 19, 2020 at 12:05
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    @Rubén - that also does not make it off topic. I am only saying that it has a normal rate of off-topic questions. If we do not consider questions tagged with it as off-topic, the concept is not off-topic. That's what "at the very least community considers it to be" Otherwise it is my word against yours, that should not be the way we define what tag is on topic and off-topic. I don't know what can I say or provide if someone conciders a valid programming concept off-topic Jul 20, 2020 at 3:44
-1

Despite of if should be burninated or not, it's not a good tag, among other things, because it's ambiguous in contexts that are on-topic in Stack Overflow.

As it's ambiguous, its use should be discouraged in favor of more specific tags.


Following are several entries of programming related pages that have definition or description of, or related to, "trigger"

From https://docs.oracle.com/javaee/7/api/javax/enterprise/concurrent/Trigger.html

Interface Trigger

public interface Trigger

Triggers allow application developers to plug in rules for when and how often a task should run. The trigger can be as simple as a single, absolute date-time or can include Java™ EE business calendar logic. A Trigger implementation is created by the application developer (or may be supplied to the application externally) and is registered with a task when it is submitted to a ManagedScheduledExecutorService using any of the schedule methods. Each method will run with unspecified context. The methods can be made contextual through creating contextual proxy objects using ContextService.

From https://docs.oracle.com/database/121/TDDDG/tdddg_triggers.htm

A trigger is a PL/SQL unit that is stored in the database and (if it is in the enabled state) automatically executes ("fires") in response to a specified event.

A trigger has this structure:

TRIGGER trigger_name
  triggering_event
  [ trigger_restriction ]
BEGIN
 triggered_action;
END;

From https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/win32/taskschd/task-triggers

A trigger is a set of criteria that, when met, starts the execution of a task. Task Scheduler provides both time-based and event-based triggers that can start a task in several different ways. A given task can be started by one or more triggers. A task can have a maximum of 48 triggers.

From https://api.jquery.com/trigger/

.trigger( eventType [, extraParameters ] )

Description: Execute all handlers and behaviors attached to the matched elements for the given event type.

From https://docs.unity3d.com/Manual/PartSysTriggersModule.html

Triggers module

The Built-in Particle System’s Triggers module allows you to access and modify particles based on their interaction with one or more Colliders in the Scene. When you enable this module, the Particle System calls the OnParticleTrigger() callback on attached scripts, which you can use to access lists of particles depending on where they are in respect to the Colliders in the Scene.

From https://developers.google.com/apps-script/guides/triggers

Triggers let Apps Script run a function automatically when a certain event, like opening a document, occurs. Simple triggers are a set of reserved functions built into Apps Script, like the function onOpen(e), which executes when a user opens a Google Docs, Sheets, Slides, or Forms file. Installable triggers offer more capabilities than simple triggers but must be activated before use. For both types of triggers, Apps Script passes the triggered function an event object that contains information about the context in which the event occurred.

MDN Web Docs Glossary: Definitions of Web-related terms doesn't include an entry for trigger. AFAIK the term is used as a verb (to trigger, triggering, etc) but not as a sustantive.

Wikipedia has an article for Events (computing) but for Triggers it has a disambiguation article which mention several articles for Technology which at least two of them are about things that are on-topic on SO:

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    None of what you quoted deviates from the intended meaning: "rules, that when they evaluate to true perform one or more actions" , except may be the wikipedia, which gives a list of "triggers" in " technology". Technology is different from programming. Here is the list for arrays in technology. Half of it off topic here.
    – TheMaster
    Jul 21, 2020 at 8:18
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    @TheMaster I didn't found any external source that supports such definition. Do you know about one? P.S. I still think that triggers is not comparable to arrays
    – Wicket
    Jul 21, 2020 at 15:22

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