122

The closed question notice was recently changed to display an "Edit question" button prominently in the lower left hand corner (in addition to the text link in the body of the message):

This seems like a positive change overall - many posters today will delete and repost questions rather than editing and reopening.

But this change will likely increase the number of edits, which will exacerbate a problem that already exists (and has come up before): edits by people other than the poster, no matter how trivial, will submit the post to the reopen queue for consideration to reopen.

This is problematic for 2 reasons:

  1. It wastes reviewers' time reviewing obviously non-substantive edits and trains them that most questions should stay closed.
  2. Much more importantly, it robs the original poster of the chance to make a substantive edit to their question and have it considered for reopening. The original poster may later fix the question, and we'd never know, because reviewers determined earlier that capitalizing some letters wasn't enough to fix the question.

To fix this, only edits by the original poster (or explicit reopen votes) should trigger submission to the reopen queue.

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  • 13
    Just to add that it has been argued that edits from subject matter experts can occasionally improve a question to the level that it is on topic. However, these same users frequently have enough reputation to vote to reopen which allows the post to enter the reopen queue. Commented Jun 16, 2020 at 22:15
  • 7
    Note: There are actually some restrictions on which edits push the question into the reopen queue. To summarize: the edits which push the question into the reopen queue are only edits changing the post body by someone who has not flagged the question or voted to close the question, or by the original author of the question. [Note: flags which have been retracted by the time the determination to put the question into the reopen queue is made do not count wrt. disqualifying the user from pushing the question into the reopen queue.]
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Jun 16, 2020 at 22:19
  • 20
    @IanCampbell Any user with >= 3k rep can, and definitely should, vote to reopen, if they feel the question should be reopened after their edit, which pushes it into the reopen queue anyway. So, the only edits which are truly deprived of putting the question into the reopen queue when it should be there are those from users with < 3k rep. While I don't have numbers, I suspect the number of edits by < 3k rep users that actually make the question on-topic is a very small number, which is probably far less than the number of OPs deprived of their one entry-by-edit into the reopen queue.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Jun 16, 2020 at 22:24
  • 12
    Just for info, this is what those with < 3K (and the public) see. (Courtesy of @Scratte). Commented Jun 16, 2020 at 23:28
  • 7
    @AmitJoshi I think that perhaps the reopen queue would work better if it were not being flooded with non-substantive edits that have no chance of salvaging the question (as it already is today) - which is what this proposal is intended to solve.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 8:35
  • 3
    "Much more importantly, it robs the original poster of the chance.." That seems to be the crucial flaw in the system. Original poster's edits should always push it into the review queue. Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 10:15
  • 2
    Also, as @Machavity is pointing, approving or rejecting edits is something available quite early in reputation, to be honest, I am pretty sure that if I see what I accepted back then when I gained access to the queue, I would be ashamed of myself... Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 10:41
  • 3
    @Trilarion correct, but I have the same feeling as the OP. When I see an actual reopen vote (only, not based on an edit), I am kind of lost, looking for the diff. So, definitely the queue is crowded by edits triggered reopen, not vote triggered ones. Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 10:53
  • 7
    "This seems like a positive change overall" well it would be positive if the edit button were shown only to OP. But it's shown to everyone, which is not so helpful.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 17:10
  • 4
    @JoeW It's only partially about reviewers being able to "keep up". That is a concern. However, it's also about A) Why have all of those volunteers waste time with reviews which can't make the post on-topic? That's seriously inconsiderate of their time and will result in people tending towards not reviewing. B) Having the vast majority of questions in the queue correctly be "Leave Closed" sets an expectation that reopen reviews are usually "Leave Closed". This will tend to make it more likely that reviewers give a "Leave Closed" response, even if the post should actually be reopened.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Jun 18, 2020 at 18:04
  • 8
    @JoeW Even more importantly, having non-OP edits consume the question's one entry-by-edit into the reopen queue deprives the OP of the opportunity to have their edit to the question automatically be reviewed for reopening. An OP edit is far more likely to make the post reopenable than an edit from someone else. Thus, the current operation also makes it much more likely that some questions which should be reopened after the OP edits are never even evaluated for reopening after that edit.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Jun 18, 2020 at 18:04
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    @JoeW No, it's not a separate issue. The problem is the current implementation intermixes all of these problems, because they're all the effects of the current implmentation. There are multiple ways this can be resolved. If SE is willing to use more developer time, then they can change the UI so questions only go into the reopen queue when the OP or an editor (and any reviewers of such an edit) feel the question should be reviewed for reopening. If SE wants a quick solution that's probably better overall, then making only the first OP edit put the question in the reopen queue should be easy.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Jun 18, 2020 at 18:47
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    Updated this to status-planned as it's actively being looked at. Thanks for the feedback.
    – Des StaffMod
    Commented Aug 25, 2020 at 16:21
  • 2
    Three Cheers for @Des! Commented Aug 25, 2020 at 18:23
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    Updates to the editing and reopening queue are addressed in this MSE post: Changing the question reopening experience
    – Lisa Park StaffMod
    Commented Jul 8, 2021 at 2:32

6 Answers 6

13

This problem was rectified with the launch of the "significant edit" checkbox that only sends edits on closed questions to the Reopen review queue if the editor says that the changes address the close reason(s). Details here

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What I would love to see here is

  1. Edits made by <2k rep users against a closed question need three approvals to trigger approval. Right now we still have ample people blindly approving things
  2. A notice to reviewers that questions that are closed should fix the reasons it was closed. Right now, there's nothing to warn new reviewers about this. Fixing grammar on a No MRE question is not useful, nor is having people have to review a reopen for it.
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    It might help if the visual indication that a suggested edit review task involves a closed question was a bit more salient than it is now with just [closed] in the title. Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 3:24
  • Definitely, I would say that keeping the closed warning block prominent in the edit screen itself would be a great plus. Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 9:42
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    I strongly agree and disagree with you. Fixing grammar is always useful. But on a question with bigger issues, it may be just putting lipstick on a pig. A "no MRE" question, for example, could stil be edited to include the proper code, and have it's grammar fixed meanwhile. However, there's the risk that no MRE is added to the question, for ever. Which means that time was wasted for a question that won't go anywhere. But it was useful, to a degree. Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 15:25
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    Just to be clear, my issue is not with people who fix grammar. My issue is with fixing grammar on a question that needs to be closed (and not because it has bad grammar).
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 15:28
  • @IsmaelMiguel there is that option in the reopen queue already you can Edit and Reopen if there is still some lipstick to put on. Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 15:32
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    Point 2 especially. I know that I have been guilty of editing an off-topic or otherwise poor post because of spelling/formatting issues just to try and hint to the OP that "this is how this should look". I'm still not clear whether or not that undermines my effort to get the post closed until it is actually made better and on-topic.
    – zero298
    Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 15:33
  • The main proposal in the question is to not have non-OP edits automatically push the question into the reopen queue. It's not clear to me if what you're suggesting is intended to be instead that proposal, in addition to that change, or as a stop-gap until that change is made. Could you please clarify what your intent is here. If it's instead of, I'm unsure if you are proposing it as your preferred solution, or as something that might be more palatable to people who still want to see non-OP edits push the question into the reopen queue.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Aug 25, 2020 at 18:36
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One possible side effect of preventing question body edits by users other than the question asker from triggering the reopen queue is that some questions that can be salvaged by editors with <3k reputation will never have a chance to be reviewed to be re-opened.

Let's explore some data:

Edit

In response to comments, here is some data from the last 30 days (18 May - 17 June 2020). This includes only questions that were not deleted, and so it is biased against posts that were automatically deleted because they were closed for 9 days.

╔═══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════╗
║                                Last 30 Days                               ║
╠═════════════════════╦═══════════════════╦═══════════════════╦═════════════╣
║                     ║ Question Closed & ║ Question Closed & ║ Success     ║
║                     ║ Edited            ║ Edited &          ║ Probability ║
║                     ║                   ║ Reopened          ║             ║
╠═════════════════════╬═══════════════════╬═══════════════════╬═════════════╣
║ Any User            ║              2850 ║               506 ║ 17.8 %      ║
║                     ║                   ║                   ║             ║
║ Question Asker      ║              2030 ║               456 ║ 22.5 %      ║
║                     ║                   ║                   ║             ║
║ Question Asker Only ║              1738 ║               327 ║ 18.8 %      ║
║                     ║                   ║                   ║             ║
║ User < 3000         ║               470 ║                24 ║ 5.1 %       ║
║ Reputation          ║                   ║                   ║             ║
║ User < 3000         ║               345 ║                10 ║ 2.9 %       ║
║ Only                ║                   ║                   ║             ║
╚═════════════════════╩═══════════════════╩═══════════════════╩═════════════╝

Here is data for the last 9 days prior to the last data migration on Data SE. This also includes only non-deleted questions, but those questions will have been deleted by the asker, votes or moderators. The limitation of this data is that fewer questions will have had time to complete the two close and open review cycles.


╔═══════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════╗
║                                 Last 9 Days                               ║
╠═════════════════════╦═══════════════════╦═══════════════════╦═════════════╣
║                     ║ Question Closed & ║ Question Closed & ║ Success     ║
║                     ║ Edited            ║ Edited &          ║ Probability ║
║                     ║                   ║ Reopened          ║             ║
╠═════════════════════╬═══════════════════╬═══════════════════╬═════════════╣
║ Any User            ║              1276 ║               129 ║ 10.1 %      ║
║                     ║                   ║                   ║             ║
║ Question Asker      ║               969 ║               119 ║ 12.3 %      ║
║                     ║                   ║                   ║             ║
║ Question Asker Only ║               868 ║                87 ║ 10.0 %      ║
║                     ║                   ║                   ║             ║
║ User < 3000         ║               181 ║                 6 ║ 3.3 %       ║
║ Reputation          ║                   ║                   ║             ║
║ User < 3000         ║               137 ║                 3 ║ 2.2 %       ║
║ Only                ║                   ║                   ║             ║
╚═════════════════════╩═══════════════════╩═══════════════════╩═════════════╝

Although neither dataset is perfect, it is interesting that questions are more likely to be reopened if they are edited by both the question asker and another user.

However, overall, I agree with the proposal in the question, body edits from the question asker should be the only types of edits that cause a closed question to enter the review queue because the data show that their revisions are the most likely to result in a salvaged question.

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    How many were edited only by a user other than the OP and were not reopened? Unfortunately, I don't think there will be enough data available publicly to find a reasonable answer to that, due to closed questions being deleted by the Roomba after (about) 9 days. The first body edit pushes the question into the reopen review queue for 5 days after closure, and the question could, theoretically, be in the reopen queue for the entire remaining time prior to it being deleted. So, the publicly available data probably isn't going to be enough.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 4:50
  • That is a very good point that deleted questions and questions not deleted due to being in the review queue certainly will skew some of the data. Still I think there is a reasonable case to be made that it is the OP that is able to salvage their question. Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 4:55
  • Sorry if I miscommunicated. I was merely talking about a lack of data for the question I was asking. Now that you mentioned it, I realize the data for the things you've included in your answer will be mostly complete for the last 30 days (except, e.g. OPs deleting their own question), but from 30 days to 90 days it will be increasingly skewed by questions being deleted by the 30 day Roomba. Hopefully, that won't be all that many of the ones which fit the criteria you've been looking at, because those will have tended to be upvoted, or at least not downvoted enough to have a net score < 0.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 5:19
  • Amazing analysis, thank you for the hard data! This suggests to me that because the question asker is, by far, the most effective person at salvaging questions by editing, anything denying them the ability to have their edits considered for reopening (such as the problem described in this feature request) likely contributes to questions staying closed when they should have been reopened.
    – Ryan M Mod
    Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 8:40
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    I wonder how many edits of OP do not result in reopening? The analysis is nice but I cannot easily predict from them how the numbers of reviews and the number of reopenings might change. Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 10:52
  • Would "question asker + any user" be: first asker to add info, then another user to edit cosmetically (grammar, markdown etc)? That'd make sense to me.
    – Adriaan
    Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 14:28
  • 1
    @Trilarion Unfortunately, getting accurate data on the negative cases (i.e. questions which weren't reopened) really requires access to information about deleted posts, which isn't fully available to non-employees. As a result, it's difficult to obtain the data you're interested in about questions which were not reopened.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 15:35
  • "It is interesting that questions are more likely to be reopened if they are edited by both the question asker and another user." SO is a collaborative effort. The "Any user except Question Asker and rep>3k" would be also be interesting. The users <3k rep edits aren't flooding the review queue although they add to it. The important question seems to be when is the best time to submit to the review queue in general. Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 15:41
  • Given you're showing data for the last 90 days, unless you're including data for deleted questions, it would be very good to say deleted questions are excluded. For example, your "questions were closed and subsequently edited by any user" number is likely substantially inaccurate, due to both the 9-day-after-close and the 30-day Roomba tasks. On that closed & edited number, limiting the query to the last 15 days indicates there are 1,683 which were closed and edited. Extrapolating to 90 days gives 10,098 closed and edited posts, which is 65% higher than you report.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 19:18
  • Taking a similar look at the number closed, subsequently edited and reopened shows 183 in the last 15 days, or 10.9%, which is quite a bit different than the 19% you show. I like that you've done this analysis. It's certainly helpful. But, it really needs to be made clear that the numbers are inaccurate, due to deleted questions not being included. Currently, people are using these numbers to justify other statements and decisions, which may not be valid. It would be nice if they were at least informed that there are limitations in the data you have available.
    – Makyen Mod
    Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 19:29
16

This looks to be setting the stage for automatic reopening of questions upon editing. Therefore, I'll adapt my answer to that question for this post as well.


Why not fix the ways posts get into the reopen queue, by e.g. not allowing edits by others than the OP into pushing it there? If only cosmetic edits could've made a post on-topic, it shouldn't have been closed to begin with. It's not like the reopen queue is ever overflowing.

Another thought on this would be to let every N-th edit by OP, or every K-days when edited, a maximum of M-times etc, push the question into the queue. Care would need to be taken of course to prevent abuse.

If anyone other than the OP wants to edit for cosmetics, let them, but don't rob the OP of the chance to get their question into the queue.

One of the few scenarios I can think of where anyone but the OP can edit a correctly closed question to be on-topic1 is when OP doesn't understand the editing principle yet and adds the necessary information/code as a comment (or answer prior to closure) and someone else moves that information to the question body itself. I doubt that this happens often enough by a <3k user to warrant putting the question into the queue directly, and any >3k user can of course vote to reopen themselves. The analysis by Ian Campbell seems to confirm this.


1: if the question could be edited by anyone other than OP to be on-topic it shouldn't have been closed to begin with, rather it should've been edited directly

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    If any edit just automatically reopens a Question, then there's no point in closing Questions anymore :(
    – Scratte
    Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 8:53
  • 2
    @Scratte that sums up most of the discussion on the automatic reopen post I linked indeed.
    – Adriaan
    Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 9:42
10

I can't remember seeing any announcement for this change, which for me is quite worrying. It sends a signal that the community:

  • Isn't part of the decision process.
  • Opinions may be heard after the fact (if meta counts at all).

I'm left to wonder why this change was even made, and these are the only three reasons I could think of:

  1. Make users aware that they can edit their own Questions.
  2. Make everyone aware that they can edit closed Questions.
  3. Make a very easy way for quick automatic re-opening.

Unless changes are made to when a closed Question is pushed into the re-open queue, the first two of the above reasons are likely to turn out undesirable. The third is just plain undesirable!

1. Make users aware that they can edit their own Questions

If a user is unaware that they can edit their own Question, they probably haven't read anything in the help center at all. They didn't even read the tour! I very highly doubt that putting this huge button on their close banner is going to make them more inclined to understand how Stack Overflow works.

2. Make everyone aware that they can edit closed Questions.

As anyone else in this Question is pointing out, the result of the big edit button is clearly going to make the Question increasingly difficult for the author to re-open their own Question. So unless all >2K reputation users stops making cosmetic edits and no such edits from anyone else is approved, the problem that's already here, will just be magnified. A Question gets one entry-by-edit into the re-open queue and that's it.

3. Make way for quick automatic re-opening.

While this just seems like a joke, I'm very concerned that it's on the table. It will effectively invalidate curators decision to close a Question. They'd have to monitor the Question and hope that after the re-opening, three other curators will re-close it. This makes it 6 votes to close, instead of just 3. The other more permanent result would be this scenario:

Close vote → Closed → Delete vote → Deleted! Over! → Ask a new Question.

A band aid could, of course, be a big edit button on the banner of a deleted Question. Then a user could edit it and vote to un-delete it, but there is no un-delete queue. Worse even would be automatic un-deletion!


In all honestly, the huge edit button on closed Question is making me very worried about the direction this could be headed.


I've previously tried to point out that easy access to information is the best option for any solution of how to make users get acquainted with and feel welcomed on Stack Overflow. I'd ask Stack Overflow to please focus on that, and not on big buttons. This change should be reverted as soon as possible.

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    "which for me is quite worrying" In general it probably is, but maybe not in this question. They already had a link saying "You can edit the question". Adding another button named "edit question" doesn't really seem like a big thing. Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 15:14
  • 5
    @Trilarion It does to me, because a lot of users seems to not be able to find it. As an example they include information in comments, instead of editing it in. Some even post Answers with additional information, that should have been in their Question. I expect the later is due to a big button as opposed to a small one that looks like a link :) The previous link was private (if I remember correctly), the new one is not.
    – Scratte
    Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 15:18
7

I support all of the points in this answer, almost. In particular, I think there can still be value in fixing grammar, code formatting, tags in titles, etc. for a post that appears to be salvageable. Indeed, cleanup of that nature can encourage the original author to take more care when they edit to address the closure. At the very least, it puts them a step closer to a quality post so that if they do manage to improve the more intrinsic problems with the question, they aren't handicapped in the reopen queue due simply to other easily fixed problems.

But as far as the question of whether edits should submit to the reopen queue or not, how hard would it be to add a checkbox (or something) to the editing UI, unchecked by default, and which controls whether the edit will submit to the reopen queue?

Naturally, the text with the checkbox and/or surrounding the edit-submission UI should make very clear what types of edits should be submitted to the reopen queue (i.e. something like "This edit fixes the problems that led to this question's closure; this question should be submitted to the reopen review queue").

The checkbox could even default to unchecked or checked according to the rules being proposed by this question. I.e. if it's the post's author editing, it would default to checked. Though frankly, I think even for the original author of the post, maybe it should default to unchecked. This would, one hopes, help emphasize to that author that they can and should improve the post relative to the closure reason, as well as provide some direct feedback that doing so has a real effect (I'm not sure every new user really understands how the close-then-reopen-queue mechanism works).

By making even the original author of the post check that box, prominently displayed to minimize the chance that they'd ignore it, we could help guide them to behaviors that are more positive, and more likely to lead to them eventually achieving their goal of having the question reopened and answered.

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    You know a good place to put that checkbox? A link labeled “reopen”, strategically placed underneath the question. When clicked, it would nominate the question for reopening, putting it in the queue. It could be connected or disconnected from edits.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 2:29
  • 1
    @CodyGray: I'm not sure if you mean to be sarcastic or what, but if so I think you're missing the point. Frankly, I don't think the author of the question should get a reopen vote, and I don't want people to have to actually vote to reopen just to get the question into the review queue. It's in the same vein as the problem that gold badge holders have with duplicate-close votes...there's no intermediate option to "vote like a non-gold-badge holder", so when one is not 100% sure, one has to either go overboard (possibly) or do nothing. Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 3:12
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    I think this checkbox will be used in the same hope as when the Question was submitted in the first place. Having the push to reopen distinct from edits is more likely to not be "spuriously" clicked. But if this is the way to do it, the checkbox should come with a "single use only" warning.
    – Scratte
    Commented Jun 17, 2020 at 7:45

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