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So I'm not good at math which leads to me being unable to calculate the half of 25. Moderator Martijn Pieters used my disability, using it to make fun of me and my math skills, saying

Your grasp of why we decline VLQ flags on posts that are merely off-topic is as misinformed as your basic math skills appear to be!

The Code of conduct explicitly disallows talking down on somebody because of their skills, which clearly has been done here

No name-calling or personal attacks. Focus on the content, not the person. This includes terms that feel personal even when they're applied to content (e.g. “lazy”).

No bigotry. We don’t tolerate any language likely to offend or alienate people based on race, gender, sexual orientation, or religion — and those are just a few examples. Use stated pronouns (when known). When in doubt, don't use language that might offend or alienate.

No harassment. This includes, but isn’t limited to: bullying, intimidation, vulgar language, direct or indirect threats, sexually suggestive remarks, patterns of inappropriate social contact, and sustained disruptions of discussion.

At the very least, his comment was a personal attack and offending, and was simply unnecessary.

By explicitly questioning my basic math skills he clearly broke the code of conduct.

Are moderators above the code of conduct? Does Stack Exchange's inclusion stop at moderators?

I'm seeking a Stack Exchange official's response and action to be taken.

I was trying to solve the conflict by flagging as harassment, but my flag got declined - is this behavior intended by Stack Exchange? Would the flag have been found helpful the matter had stopped today in the morning, but now people are upvoting his response, further harassing me.

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    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Oct 20, 2019 at 22:45
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    Folks, we get it, the OP came in guns blazing and used some rather loaded language. Nevertheless, they do have a genuine grievance so please don't close the question.
    – Script47
    Oct 21, 2019 at 0:33
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    Well, this is pretty ridiculous. If anyone needed a good example of why we need to have phrases like "bring your sense of humor" and "assume good faith" in the Code of Conduct, this is one. It is somewhat ironic that you seem to be unable to take a good-natured ribbing in stride, considering the types of comments you yourself have left here on Meta. Oct 21, 2019 at 0:49
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    I don't know the poster's prior history, but if Martijn knew that he was "poking a bear", it probably wasn't a very wise thing to do Oct 21, 2019 at 1:26
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    @Hover No, I didn't mean to suggest that. It wasn't an accusation that Crispy Bacon is a troll or anything. Just that he seemed like a reasonable guy who would react reasonably to some good-natured ribbing, since he's dished out the same and never shied away from stating his opinion. There was never any indication to Martijn or anyone else that he had a disability. This was just a joke--arguably one that didn't land so well--but a joke nevertheless. I can support deletion of the comment, but calling it "harassment, bigotry, or abuse" is a major stretch to me. Those are serious accusations. Oct 21, 2019 at 1:45
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    @CodyGray: I don't disagree. It was unfriendly, but only if taken that way, and it was. And now it has been discussed to death and beyond Oct 21, 2019 at 1:49
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    Also, the irony here is this post is itself insulting to people who have actual disabilities. Oct 21, 2019 at 4:58
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    @codygray if it were a normal user who did the ‘joke’ you were right. But then, if I found it offending, I could flag it and it would be deleted. (Maybe the flag would have been declined, the comment would have been deleted though). But this is a complete different story here. There are moderators teaming up against a user; not deleting that comment when handling the flag was what caused this post. If people start to abuse their power, something has to be done.
    – baao
    Oct 21, 2019 at 7:52
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    @chrispbacon: have you sent an email to the community team? That is the responsible way to escalate a situation, so that it is handled by the company.
    – halfer
    Oct 21, 2019 at 8:19
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    @chrispbacon why are you jumping straight to assuming bad faith? Everybody has a bad day, and most of us have said things we wouldn't repeat at one point or another. You're blowing this astronomically out of proportion
    – Magisch
    Oct 21, 2019 at 8:21
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    @halfer I did everything I could to deescalate. I found the comment offending, as it was completely written "from above". So what I did was flagging the comment and I commented (mentioning the mod) that I did so and that I will complain. On the other hand, the moderation team did everything they could to further escalate: Declining the comment without a message, and instead of deleting the offending comment, they deleted mine. If you want to be treated that way by mods that's ok - I'm not okay with authorities that believe to be above the rules.
    – baao
    Oct 21, 2019 at 8:57
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    That comment was not harassment, how unfortunate that we have become hyper-sensitized... @chrispbacon you 100% honestly felt hurt by what they said? Oct 21, 2019 at 14:13
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    Lots of misinformation in the comments here... First, moderators cannot include any sort of message to accompany a declined comment flag. The flag on Martijn's comment was declined because the comment was not "harassment, bigotry, or abuse". Your comment replying to Martijn was deleted by a different moderator than the one who handled your flag, and it was in response to a "no longer needed" flag on your comment by another user. So, no, there's no collusion between the moderator team to sweep anything under the rug or further escalate. Just different moderators handling different flags. Oct 21, 2019 at 17:49
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    Why don't we just delete the slightly unfriendly comment if it isn't already removed and move on? Oct 22, 2019 at 14:32
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    Sooo saying you are bad at math is now harassment and rude?
    – Veljko89
    Oct 23, 2019 at 15:14

4 Answers 4

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Bottom line: I agree with you, that the moderator's comment was inappropriate, perhaps more "unkind" than "harassment", that you have every right to bring this issue up on meta, and that the comment should be removed. And I agree with James Polk, that it would be worthwhile knowing who declined your flag and why. For what it is worth, I myself have flagged that comment as "unfriendly/unkind"

But I also think that you've created and posted your question while feeling anger and frustration, and this has tainted your post and riled up the masses. For example, the original question asked for the removal of the moderator -- for what? saying an inappropriate thing in comment?

So ask yourself, what is your goal with this post?

If to inflame the masses in righteous indignation, then yes, you've sort of succeeded: they/we appear inflamed, but perhaps not for the reasons you desired.

If your goal is to change behaviors of the site, then perhaps better to make it much more measured, strictly factual, and less emotional. As I stated in comments, if I were in your shoes, I'd first create this post, then sleep on it, so as not to post it in a mood of anger or frustration, and then the next day, edit and post it when the heat of battle has left me.

.... and so now we await the diamond moderator verdict as I'm sure that they are discussing this in their private chat room ....

and regarding:

but now people are upvoting his bigot response, further harassing me

Wow, this is an embarrassing meta effect. Please understand that people are emotional beings first and foremost and logical beings only secondarily. I am guessing that they may be up-voting the comment simply because they don't like your post that you've made here for whatever reason. While it does not truly harass you, it is embarrassing to me, it is wrong, and hopefully, it will not be an issue once the comment has been appropriately removed.


And now the offending comment has been removed, a victory of sorts.

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    I agree, but ... who declined the flag and why? Surely it was not declined because the comment was more "rude" than it was "harassing"? And yes, it appears that OP is trying to seize the mantle of victimhood here, for some reason I can't fathom. Oct 20, 2019 at 21:03
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    @JamesKPolk: Agree, and that can and should be asked in the initial meta post, but again tone matters as a more measured tone to the post would have eliminated most reflexive backlash. We're creatures of emotion first, logic second. Oct 20, 2019 at 21:04
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    @JamesKPolk Maybe (dunno) there is 'history' between OP and this mod? Also, maybe there are comments/remarks made in the referenced "relevant context" that have been removed/hidden/deleted (I don't have the rep for "Moderator Tools")? Oct 20, 2019 at 21:10
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    @Adrian: all true, and if so, then a factual recitation of that history should be spelled out in the original post. Oct 20, 2019 at 21:11
  • @Adrian The comments were all there at the start of this. I've just done some flagging, and I expect others may also be doing so, so they probably won't be there very long... Oct 20, 2019 at 21:12
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    @chrispbacon: what can I say? Sadly, people are not always kind Oct 20, 2019 at 21:33
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    I know - that's why only a few qualify as a moderator. If you can't be friendly no matter what, you're not a good moderator. Just look at the definition of moderator.
    – baao
    Oct 20, 2019 at 21:35
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    @Adrian No history, no. He's completely unknown to me - can't remember any history
    – baao
    Oct 20, 2019 at 21:36
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    @chrispbacon: I think that we need realistic standards. Even a moderator can have a slip up on occasion, perhaps a bad day, perhaps a fight with a spouse.. If this is regular event, then sure, get rid of them, but if it is one-off, correct it and avoid it in the future. Oct 20, 2019 at 21:36
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    I agree 100%. The fact that his friends declined my flag makes an investigation necessary though. Otherwise we'll soon be where american police is against people of color. blue code...
    – baao
    Oct 20, 2019 at 21:38
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    @chrispbacon: and again I think that you have every right to bring this issue up on meta. Oct 20, 2019 at 21:39
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    @chrispbacon which is why you should bring up the issue on meta. But claiming the mantle of victimhood in the extreme will only serve to turn people against you and delay your getting support. Oct 20, 2019 at 22:13
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    One person said something rude to me! I declare WAR!
    – S.S. Anne
    Oct 20, 2019 at 23:38
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    This has got to be a joke. I can't believe y'all are actually saying this was in any way an out of line comment!!! How, exactly, are we supposed to tell someone their math skills could use improvement if not through humor? Oct 21, 2019 at 22:54
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    @FélixGagnon-Grenier you can't on SO, not with humor, not without. Someone's (lack of) math skills are personal, we don't do personal. Comments are reserved for dealing with content, not people. That does not change anything about how overblown this entire deal is though. Its an unwanted comment, it should be deleted and that's the end of it.
    – Gimby
    Oct 22, 2019 at 7:37
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I should preface this post by saying that I have generally sided for the Be Nice policy, for the Welcoming initiative, and for the existence of a Code of Conduct. I think we should be trying to level the playing field a bit, so that all users feel welcome here, and so that categories of people who have been been excluded from technology in the past are considered by everyone – and by themselves – as part of the community.

With that context set out, I want to expand on a useful remark made by @HovercraftFullOfEels in the other answer here:

But claiming the mantle of victimhood

This is actually the start of a useful analysis. By this, I mean that when a person is faced with language that is not just rude to one person, but possibly exclusionary to a group of people, they do have some choice as to how to feel. They can:

  • Claim they are a victim
  • Insist they are always more of a victim than other protected groups
  • Always see bad faith of other parties regardless of the circumstances
  • Exhibit self-sabotaging behaviour and then claim that was the impact of the original remark
  • Spend significant time and emotional energy on telling everyone loudly how awful things are
  • Regard their newly-acquired victimhood as "proof" that their analysis of the original remark was correct
  • Be as pessimistic as possible

Or, they can:

  • Decide how much offence was meant
  • Analyse whether the remark was really intended to be exclusionary to a whole group
  • Where the remark was offhand or clumsy, offer a small correction, or have a "quiet word"
  • Be optimistic

I think your complaint takes the first road. I think it is not fair on the moderator, since there is no evidence that he knew of your disability, and I would very much doubt that he was intending to be dismissive or hurtful towards people with your specific disability.

Moreover, your complaint is not fair on yourself. You can choose to acquire victimhood, and this choice is likely to be emotionally damaging and mentally exhausting. Thus, it is better for you if you can take the optimistic path - it is a promise not to commit yourself to acquiring offence and hurt at every possible opportunity. You can choose to be resilient.

We should perhaps remember that taking offence is in political vogue at the moment. This is a double-edged sword: it is good that we are aware of racism, sexism, ableism, sexual harassment, and so forth. However, the flip side is that with the increased limelight, everyone who is moderately disgruntled about something may be subconsciously tempted to grab a slice of the drama, and render their minor situation in the fashionable language of mental health breakdown. We need to be wary of that.

Summary

I suspect there is a lot of pressure on mods at the moment. With many of them having left their volunteer posts recently, the ones that are left have to pick up the slack, and they may not themselves be thrilled with the direction of Stack Overflow Inc either. So, that is another reason for some patience and kindness.

Finally, nothing I have said here is intended as a defence of genuine bigotry. However, the comments that have been set out are obviously merely careless, and it muddies the water when making false claims in this fashion.

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  • I see bullet points 1, 5, and 7 here. I don't see any bullet points after the "Or, they can:" here.
    – S.S. Anne
    Oct 20, 2019 at 23:48
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    @JL2210: indeed. Through this post I hope to change the question author's mind about which direction to take (mostly for their own health).
    – halfer
    Oct 20, 2019 at 23:50
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    @chrispbacon I think you'll find yourself disappointed if you try to sue SE over a perceived CoC breach, especially this one. That is if you can even find a lawyer willing to touch that case.
    – ivarni
    Oct 21, 2019 at 6:40
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    @chrispbacon - I should be grateful if you would actually read my post, and perhaps respond to the substance of it.
    – halfer
    Oct 21, 2019 at 7:48
  • (Background: the OP added a comment above which was not related to my post at all, and that comment has since been deleted, either by themselves or a moderator. They are welcome and encouraged to consider the points I have made at any time in the future).
    – halfer
    Oct 23, 2019 at 20:42
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That comment was definitely rude and condescending, and I agree that people shouldn't have upvoted it. With that said, I'm not sure that it's outright harassment or bigotry. An "Unfriendly or Unkind" flag should've been raised and sustained for it.

Also, please don't take this the wrong way, but merely struggling with math isn't necessarily a disability (unless it's directly caused by some kind of underlying learning disability, for example, which isn't clear from your post). I'm not good at basketball, cross-country running, or piano, but I don't claim to have a disability based on that. This part of your post can lead to the perception that you're overstating your case, and it can even be perceived as insulting to people who have diagnosable medical conditions. I would strongly encourage you to rephrase to have a more factual tone to your post; this would probably lead to it being received better.

Also, even if struggling with math is due to a disability of some kind, it isn't clear to me that the individual in question would've had any way to know that, so it seems unlikely that they were somehow mocking a disability (which would constitute "harassment, bigotry, or abuse").

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    I'd probably add to this that for an action to qualify as harassment, it has to happen several times. The word is used to mean "behaviour which I don't like", but since that is not yet what it means, using that word can be misleading.
    – halfer
    Oct 20, 2019 at 23:47
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    @halter If the commenter was obviously mocking people with disabilities, I'd say that it could be flagged as bigotry for attacking a group of people, but I see no evidence that that's what happened. It's unclear whether the OP even has a disability in the first place, and even if they did it's not clear that the commenter would have any way to know that. Oct 21, 2019 at 2:33
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    Frankly, casting being "bad at math" as a disability is offensive. I'm terrible at math. Without a calculator and/or my fingers, I can barely add and subtract, much less multiply or divide. For a while, it was a joke at work: "don't let the programmer do math!" It wasn't offensive or insulting because being bad at math is not a disability (not to mention the fact that it was all in jest). To portray being "bad at math" as a disability is incredibly insensitive to people who have actual disabilities, as it trivializes the entire notion of a disability. One can improve their math skills. Oct 21, 2019 at 3:17
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    @CodyGray My point exactly. Oct 21, 2019 at 4:55
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    There is, in fact, a learning disability that specifically affects mathematical skill, known as dyscalculia. However it's not at all clear if the author is dyscalculic or just really bad at math. And as Cody said it would be offensive to dyscalculics and other disabled people for the asker to categorize simply being bad at math as a disability.
    – BoltClock
    Oct 21, 2019 at 5:56
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    Are we really saying that people need to prove their disabilities now, and/or that disabilities that we don't know about or we don't believe are real disabilities shouldn't count? Do users need to list their disabilities on their profile pages too? -- or perhaps these are personal issues and we should presume good faith (and "dissing" on behavior that can be caused by a disability should be off limits).
    – thebjorn
    Oct 21, 2019 at 6:20
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    No, we should assume good faith, and therefore suppose that a comment jesting about someone's poor math ability was not intended to "harass" or "abuse" someone with a disability. @thebjorn Oct 21, 2019 at 7:14
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    @CodyGray that is arguing from privilege. Joking about disabilities, gender non-comformity, and many other categories is just fun/harmless to the people who don't need to consider such things. Clearly offense was taken, and the reason was stated as a disability effecting math abilities. Why is that not enough? No, of course I don't believe that Martijn intended any ill effects, nor do I believe any sanction besides removing the comment is needed..., but post-facto statements of intention doesn't matter as long as offense was taken - at least not according to my reading of the CofC.
    – thebjorn
    Oct 21, 2019 at 7:32
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    So...if I find your comment offensive, should you be compelled to remove it? It's an infinite regress: where does it end? Common sense has to come into play. Also, see comments above: this wasn't a joke about disabilities. This was a joke about poor math skills. Poor math skills are not a disability, and trying to frame them as such is trivializing to people with actual disabilities, so I'm not going to entertain that notion for even one second. I already put myself on record as someone who needs to "worry" about my math [in]abilities. The Code of Conduct is not intended to be used as a weapon Oct 21, 2019 at 7:38
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    @thebjorn lemme use the example I always use when the 'someone got offended, isn't thatenough"?' line gets thrown out:I lost my dad at a young age after a super tough battle with diseases. I fought with him, it broke my family asunder. I can't see 'dad' without ever thinking back to that and feeling hurt. Am I allowed to go ensure no one ever posts anything 'fatherly' related on the internet? No. It's not a matter of proving anything. Someone did a joke because someone messed up a basic math equation. Is all. Why look for freaking witch hunts everywhere, and when there's none, start one?
    – Patrice
    Oct 21, 2019 at 10:58
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    @BoltClock Yes, that's why I specified "unless it's directly caused by some kind of underlying learning disability". It's entirely possible that the OP's math abilities are impacted by a learning disability, but that's by no means clear from the post or subsequent discussion. Merely being bad at math does not, by itself, prove that you have a disability any more than my poor piano skills proves that I have a "piano disability." Oct 21, 2019 at 13:18
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    @thebjorn Are we really saying that people need to prove their disabilities now, and/or that disabilities that we don't know about or we don't believe are real disabilities shouldn't count? Not the point at all. The point is that merely being bad at math doesn't prove that you have a disability any more than me being bad at basketball or piano proves that I have one. Not everyone has the same skillset; if we said that any skill deficit in any area was proof of a disability the term wouldn't have much meaning at all anymore, since it would allow literally everyone to claim a disability. Oct 21, 2019 at 13:25
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    @thebjorn The distinction is that I'm not claiming to have a disability based on, for example, my poor basketball or piano skills. On the other hand, the OP is claiming that their poor math skills means that they have a disability, and that they were being harassed based specifically on that disability. In that case, they do need to prove that they actually have a disability (rather than merely having poor math skills, which is not a disability). Otherwise, as far as I can tell, there's literally no disability to harass them for. Oct 21, 2019 at 13:33
  • @Patrice I get your analogy, but I think it is a little bit flawed.. a better analogy would be if someone says something insensitive about "dad-issues" in a comment directly to you. Are you (or someone like you) allowed to be offended? What if they know about your background?
    – thebjorn
    Oct 21, 2019 at 13:47
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    @thebjorn It's really not a straw-man. If the OP claims to have a learning disability that causes their poor math skills I'd likely take their word for it, but they don't - they claim that their poor math skills is itself a disability, which isn't true at all. Poor skills in some area is not, in and of itself, a disability (or even proof that you have one) - otherwise, everyone could claim to be disabled. Oct 21, 2019 at 13:53
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Moderator Martijn Pieters used my disability, using it to make fun of me and my math skills, saying

Knowing Martijn it would be out of character for Martijn to make fun of anyone's disability. I would say Martijn has assumed you have adequate maths skills and so wouldn't have assumed the comment to cause any significant hurt.

Your grasp of why we decline VLQ flags on posts that are merely off-topic is as misinformed as your basic math skills appear to be!

The Code of conduct explicitly disallows talking down on somebody because of their skills, which clearly has been done here

Yes, technically the comment broke the code of conduct, but I don't believe it was Martijn's intent to be cruel.

At the very least, their comment was a personal attack and offending, and was simply unnecessary.

It was unnecessary and although the intent was unlikely to be malicious, it felt like a personal attack and that is what needs to be dealt with.

Are moderators above the code of conduct? Does Stack Exchange's inclusion stop at moderators?

Moderators are expected to follow the Code of Conduct.

I'm seeking a Stack Exchange official's response and action to be taken.

Currently the network is overwhelmed with issues, and many people are left hanging for flags to be handled and waiting for responses from the network via email and contact forms. This is an unprecedented time of turmoil for the network and it's something we are all needing to be patient with. This is easy to say when you're clearly upset, but it's not personal.

I was trying to solve the conflict by flagging as harassment, but my flag got declined - is this behavior intended by Stack Exchange? Would the flag have been found helpful the matter had stopped today in the morning, but now people are upvoting their response, further harassing me.

I totally agree that the Meta Effect and upvoting comments like this forms a pattern of potential harassment. It's something I've been vocal about in trying to prevent. There's also been a lot of jostling and some inconsistencies in how flags are handed over the past 6 months. There's been a lot of change in moderators, what is expected of moderators and the community, moderators included, is under a lot of stress. It's something that may take some time to settle down.

The comment was unkind, outright harassment? I don't think so. Harassment is defined as:

aggressive pressure or intimidation.

In Australia:

Harassment linked to the disability of a person or their associate is against the law.

Online harassment:

Harassment directs multiple repeating obscenities and derogatory comments at specific individuals focusing, for example, on the targets' race, religion, gender, nationality, disability, or sexual orientation. This often occurs in chat rooms, through newsgroups, and by sending hate e-mail to interested parties. This may also include stealing photos of the victim and their families, doctoring these photos in offensive ways, and then posting them on social media with the aim of causing emotional distress .../

Psychological harassment:

This is humiliating, intimidating or abusive behavior which is often difficult to detect, leaving no evidence other than victim reports or complaints. This characteristically lowers a person’s self-esteem or causes one to have overwhelming torment. This can take the form of verbal comments, engineered episodes of intimidation, aggressive actions or repeated gestures. Falling into this category is workplace harassment by individuals or groups mobbing.

Community-based psychological harassment, meanwhile, is stalking by a group against an individual using repeated distractions that the individual is sensitized to. Media reports of large numbers of coordinated groups stalking individual stalking victims, including a press interview given by an active duty police lieutenant, have described this community-based harassment as gang stalking.

In terms of Martijn's original comment, I would think it was intended to be a jest at making a seemingly trivial mathematical error and not made with the knowledge you have difficulties with maths.

If comments were to continue and the upvoting of the comment is the commencement of mobbing. The network needs to address Mobbing:

Mobbing, as a sociological term, means bullying of an individual by a group, in any context, such as a family, peer group, school, workplace, neighborhood, community, or online.

When it occurs as physical and emotional abuse in the workplace, such as "ganging up" by co-workers, subordinates or superiors, to force someone out of the workplace through rumor, innuendo, intimidation, humiliation, discrediting, and isolation, it is also referred to as malicious, nonsexual, non-racial/racial, general harassment.

In terms of disciplinary actions against Martijn, this is unlikely, as it's not a pattern of behaviour and highly unlikely Martijn intended any malice.

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    This is a superb answer IMHO. A bit long, ok. But it actually directly answers some of the questions that were posed in the original question. Why was it downvoted? Dec 21, 2019 at 14:50
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    @SybillePeters because many people on meta vote on the author not the content. I went through such a difficult time on MSE I closed my account.
    – user3956566
    Dec 21, 2019 at 19:32
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    I am sorry to hear this. Dec 28, 2019 at 19:36
  • For some context, user3956566 was Stack Overflow moderator "Yvette" / "YvetteColomb" (and "user310756" on MSE). Apr 6 at 16:45

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