364

I've seen that the community has agreed that "thank you" should be removed from questions:

  1. Auto Remove “Thanks in Advance”
  2. No Thanks, Damn It!

Would (my preferred pronouns are she/her) qualify as the same type of message?

Context: Typing an array of instances of React components

There has been a discussion on meta.SE about this as well: Official FAQ on gender pronouns and Code of Conduct changes (thanks to @Cerbrus)

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  • 196
    Cross-site dupe: meta.stackexchange.com/a/334909/203057 Yes, it's noise, but no, we're apparently not allowed to remove it... Wat.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 8:18
  • 31
    @Cerbrus, a lot to read there, but I found: "Q8: How should I identify my pronouns if I choose to do so? Whether and how you identify your pronouns is up to you. If you choose to do so, add it to the “About Me” section of your user profile."
    – Chris
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 8:21
  • 14
    So much for the CMs doubting it will really start happening Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 8:21
  • 16
    @Chris: That seems like a clear argument in favor of removing it.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 8:23
  • 22
    @Cerbrus, I agree. It's just unnecessary noise that doesn't help the question in any way. If someone says he instead of she or vice-versa, OP can just clarify with a comment. No need to over-complicate things...
    – Chris
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 8:25
  • 76
    Moderator note: after investigating the context, we found that the post had been made in bad faith with a sock puppet. We removed the account.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 10:09
  • 91
    I really think we've created a storm in a glass of water... For me, +90% of the usernames make very little sense at all, let alone identify the gender. What is pavodive? a male? a female? Who cares for my sexual preferences when answering a python question? When answering a question I try to use gender-neutral language, as I really don't know what possible gender is behind "User12345", I can't conceive someone can be troubled by neutral language, and if so, I think a gentle comment would suffice.
    – PavoDive
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 10:22
  • 112
    @MartijnPieters You (the moderators) are shooting yourself in the foot in handling this specific case. You said that the post was made in bad faith and the user removed over it. Even if you want to abide by the CM comments saying to leave in the pronoun declaration, you don't do that when it was made as an obvious troll attempt. With doing so you basically give trolls the permission to make bad faith actions and have their effects left as is. This is not how rules and moderation work. Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 12:50
  • 13
    @ChristianRau: Just because the post started by someone using bad-faith tactics doesn't make the post itself off-topic or worthy of deletion. I merely wanted to clarify why the account that posted the question is no longer there, and to make it clear that this specific example of a post should not be used as a typical case, not without more posts that were not made specifically with troll-baiting in mind. The very best the community can do here is not turn this into an all-out battle and instead have a constructive discussion instead.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 13:29
  • 41
    @MartijnPieters There might not be a need to delete the post, yes. But if there is no person anymore, a statement of personal pronouns becomes at least obsolete and at worst (and you officially stated that) a bad faith (and ultimately successful) attempt at trolling the site by abusing a supposedly new guideline. And if this example should not be used as a typical (good faith) case, then why are you treating it as such? Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 13:37
  • 28
    Since the account has been deleted, there is no person behind the question any more. Pronouns aren't relevant any more in this case.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 13:39
  • 101
    The post in question and the reaction of the mods is a great example of the ridiculousness of the policy (kudos to the troll there). It's probably better to leave it as is, to serve its purpose as an example and a warning to all who seek reason on this site.
    – Vatev
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 13:43
  • 15
    Moderator note: rather than post more comments saying how this should be handled, either post that as an answer or vote on the existing answers.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 14:13
  • 9
    @Tom: take into account that there are actually real reasons to switch preferred pronouns over time. But if you see a pattern that could indicate a problem, you'd flag it for moderator attention if you feel it is best to not leave it up to the community to handle.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 14:22
  • 33
    @Cerbrus "Yes, it's noise, but no, we're apparently not allowed to remove it... Wat." Actually it makes perfect sense. Corporate's goal is not a good QA site, but sending a certain political message. Good QA doesn't make money but they believe politics does. And they very well may be right. Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 17:18

14 Answers 14

57

Update:

The new FAQ states:

10. I want to let people know what my pronouns are. What should I do?

How (and whether) you identify your pronouns is up to you. In many cases it's unnecessary. Please don’t put pronouns in your posts unless it’s somehow relevant.

(emphasis mine)

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  • 10
    \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/
    – E_net4
    Commented Oct 23, 2019 at 12:25
523

Unless it is directly related to the answer of the question, it's clutter and it should be removed. The place to put such things is in the user profile, and that should be at that user's discretion.

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  • 191
    @MartijnPieters The CoC isn't a draft, it is published as an official FAQ with orders to fall in line. If they want discussion, they need to have that before making official statements. Apparently not even the moderators who were supposed to give feedback on the CoC had a say. And as in any dystopia, you don't argue with or criticise the Party.
    – Lundin
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 11:13
  • 19
    @Lundin: I am not talking about the CoC here. I'm talking about how we transition from not having this new CoC to the CoC having been understood and enforced across all of SO by the majority of the community. That doesn't happen overnight, and can still cause plenty of issues. Now, if you can discuss this constructively without casting aspersions and throwing about comparisons to communist totalitarian states, you are more than welcome to discuss this here. Otherwise, keep it to yourself or your personal social media please.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 11:37
  • 160
    @MartijnPieters Discuss with whom? The only people who it would be meaningful to have such a discussion with, SO company officials, aren't listening and do not want community feedback. They just want us to stop protesting on the streets, use the compelled speech we were told to use and not to question their authority. (And for the record I already gave constructive criticism in the correct place, Meta.SE, not Meta.SO)
    – Lundin
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 11:44
  • 25
    @Lundin: I'm really sorry you don't feel heard, but that still doesn't mean you get to be unconstructive here instead.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 11:46
  • 10
    @MartijnPieters But any discussion about this issue should be on Meta.SE or I fail to see how it can be constructive, since these are network-wide policies and not specific to SO.
    – Lundin
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 11:48
  • 10
    @Lundin: each community can still discuss the specifics about how to handle details on their own site. That's what is being done here.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 11:49
  • 8
    @Lundin we had a "say" on the CoC inasfar as we gave wording suggestions and tweaks, and we even saw the blog post before it went live and were allowed to give suggestions and tweaks (unclear how much of that was used). we had no forewarning on the FAQ, of which this issue only came up in that FAQ. That's my bugaboo.
    – anon
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 12:53
  • 13
    As much as the new CoC rules bother me, knowingly flouting the rules is not the way forward here -- you're just making it harder on the elected, volunteer mods who have to deal with this. Personally, I'd rather have personal pronouns in the post rather than in the profile so I don't have to open every user's profile to see if they have preferred pronouns just so that I can comment without sounding like a jerk. Should SO, inc. have thought of this before and had a solution prepared before they instituted the new CoC? Sure, but why make it harder on everyone just out of spite? Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 12:58
  • 16
    @HereticMonkey because that's the only way the organization would correct course. Once resources are wasted on unimportant things, someone higher up would notice, and would love this wastage to not be done anymore and deal appropriately with it. Oh, btw, if there's nobody to enforce the rules (ie. no elected moderators because they refuse to deal with this), who do you thing would do it?
    – Braiam
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 13:59
  • 59
    @Lundin: The CoC should be actively ignored/resisted, considering SE Inc.'s behavior.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 14:29
  • 13
    @einpoklum ...no. That's not how it works. If you have an issue with the way the company acted, then address that. It does not, however, give you a license to not abide by the set policies of the site. If you cannot work within the confines of the Code of Conduct, perhaps this is not the place for you.
    – Mithical
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 14:33
  • 95
    @user58: No, that's not how collective action works. With significant friction/resistance by users, especially more central and influential ones - high-rep, moderators - the situation becomes unmanageable for the company. At first it would try rebukes, like Sara Chipps' posts. Then it will try polite but vacuous rhetoric, like CTO Fullerton's post. If that doesn't work, it will need to actually make concessions or risk the network getting derailed entirely. And it does not matter what one particular user does or does not.
    – einpoklum
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 14:55
  • 6
    @Braiam Once resources are wasted on unimportant things, someone higher up would notice Resources have been wasted on unimportant things for many years now. Unfortunately, I'm doubtful that the workload on the volunteer moderators and curators is considered much, if at all. Commented Oct 12, 2019 at 0:15
  • 39
    +1: As Monica Cellio pointed out, you don't normally need someone's pronouns to talk to them when answering, only to talk about them. That does happen in comments with users talking to each other about a confusing question (for example), but we can usually just say "the OP". Commented Oct 12, 2019 at 20:32
  • 44
    SE lied over Monica's dismissal. They are still lying about it today. Don't forget that.
    – user3714134
    Commented Oct 14, 2019 at 9:03
250

When I end up on Stack Overflow because I need to know how to do something, I don't care who posted the question or the answer. I don't care if they're male, female or anything else. I don't even care if they're a robot. I just care about the problem I have to find a solution to.

The pronoun of the user asking the question or providing the answer is just not relevant.

A well crafted question or answer won't refer to any individuals by name or pronoun because at best it would add noise, and at worst limit the relevant audience for their content. Instead, said content would refer only to the problem at hand, and the answer to that problem. No one needs call anyone anything in order to achieve that.

The exception to that would be here in meta where individuals do get talked about - it may well be appropriate in that case.

Just not on the main site. It's just noise.

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  • 12
    I might care if the robot is Stack Roboflow, but otherwise I wouldn't care ;)
    – Davy M
    Commented Oct 12, 2019 at 2:26
  • 7
    @unperson325680 I'm struggling to find the link between the first part of your comment, and your last sentence... Meritocracy is exactly the appropriate measure for a site like this - 'judging' people by the quality of their contributions alone. Then suddenly in the last sentence you (in a racist/sexist manner I might add - yes it does work both ways) condone it as evil. I'm clearly missing the connection. So no, I don't know that. Enlighten me.
    – Shadow
    Commented Oct 13, 2019 at 22:04
  • 48
    The last sentence was sarcasm, @Shadow. unperson325680 is actually advocating meritocracy, and using sarcasm to mock those who would object to it.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 14, 2019 at 4:25
  • 2
    Admittedly a sample of just a few questions, but that Stack Roboflow seems to generate remarkably few syntax errors. And I've seen lower quality/less comprehensible/less sane questions that were written by real humans.
    – Gloweye
    Commented Oct 14, 2019 at 8:35
  • 13
    Yes that's right, thank you for clarification Cody Gray. I don't write so good when I'm frustrated. Could have been interpreted way worse :-)
    – mike3996
    Commented Oct 14, 2019 at 10:14
  • @unperson325680 it does make a lot more sense as sarcasm :P
    – Shadow
    Commented Oct 15, 2019 at 4:43
  • 3
    @unperson325680 “Avoid sarcasm and be careful with jokes — tone is hard to decipher online.” – uh oh, I think you violated the CoC there. Thank God you didn’t just talk about it, it wasn’t Friday and you’re not (at least not openly) jewish.
    – dessert
    Commented Oct 19, 2019 at 21:59
  • Tone is indeed hard to decipher online, and sarcasm doesn't translate well into languages that lack the concept so in general I agree with that as a standard especially when dealing directly with users. That said, it's not like it took long to diffuse the confusion either...
    – Shadow
    Commented Oct 20, 2019 at 11:06
108

Pronoun preference does not belong in any post. As others have already stated, this is just pure noise, noise that has always been edited out of a post. The SE network is not a forum; there is not a sub forum for New comers: introduce yourself here. Those who want to introduce themselves are more than welcome to do so in their profile - this is why we have them to begin with. But out here in the Q&A world, it's business as usual - ask your question and get answers. We don't want to hear about your hobbies in your question and gender identity isn't any different - hence why we consider it noise and why it would be subject to moderation.

There's a place for everything. Questions go in questions. Answers go in answers. Your education goes in your profile. What you ate today goes in Twitter. Your gender identity goes with your name.

If a user wants to let the world know their preference, then they simply need to add it to their username. This is the name we chose to go by on this platform, and it shows what we want to be called every time someone talks to us. For me it would be as simple as changing my publicly displayed name to Mr. K.Dᴀᴠɪs. And better yet, we would be forced to use their preference when we @someone. We have complete control what we want people to call us by changing a simple property on the site.

Keep your identity where it belongs - in your name, not in your posts.

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    This is a great argument. You don't really "own" your posts anyway -- they are community property and can be modified. If SO assumes ownership of your answer and that answer can be edited, clarified, updated over the course of years by anyone then it should be most anonymous and without personal information.
    – mike3996
    Commented Oct 13, 2019 at 14:33
  • 12
    The problem I foresee here is knowing the difference when in a moniker. Until two/three days ago I would have thought Zir was someone’s first name. I admit a learning curve to recognising but this will be difficult especially for non regulars and non English. Though I guess seeing it enough the penny would drop.
    – QHarr
    Commented Oct 13, 2019 at 19:01
  • 11
    I am the same way @QHarr. I didn't know these pronouns existed and English is my native language. This is why I feel that it's important for moderators need to give users a benefit of the doubt and educate rather than punish when someone is not able to make that distinction unless it's obvious that a user did so out of disrespect. Commented Oct 13, 2019 at 19:09
  • I don't want to conflate/cloud things but Mr is also a noun (gendered). And yeah... I'm using google a lot right now.
    – QHarr
    Commented Oct 13, 2019 at 19:09
  • 1
    Yes, a it's a noun - and the purpose of a noun is to identify. My name is a proper noun, it identifies me specifically. Which is all the more reason that it belongs in a username if one desires to be known as a 'Mr.' or anything else. Commented Oct 13, 2019 at 19:14
  • It can also be appendaged to the post as TAG. Since the choice is binary - just two new tags would be needed. Also, there are women who take offence in being called miss not mrs, and there are women who take offence in mrs not miss. We definitely should have this covered in questions too. Commented Oct 15, 2019 at 19:54
  • 1
    @Arioch'The, that's tag abuse. The only time it's appropriate in a tag, is if it's to categorise the post for a specific type of question, so if it's a question about the pronoun, that's good, if it's to show your pronoun and not relevant to the content of the question, that's tag abuse and should be discouraged. Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 11:00
  • @DoctorJones that is by old rules. But rules were changed. Well, it is noticeable though, people mostly do not want technical solutions to make life easier for dissidents, people want to fight and force bad people to obey good people. So let it be so... Commented Oct 18, 2019 at 22:32
  • Not sure I completely agree, but only because of the disparity in English that people who identify as female have 3 identifiers to choose from based on the archaic notion of whether they belong to a male or not - a concept that I find sexist, outdated and irrelevant (the use of Miss/Mrs/Ms to indicate/obscure marital status). This is divisive (there's no equivalent for males and no indicator at all other genders) and unnecessary; stackanywhere seldom needs to know gender(IPSE can put in the Q if relevant), and everyone can be adequately referred to as you/your/they/them
    – Caius Jard
    Commented May 11, 2020 at 5:52
80

Here are the two statements in the code of conduct which are specific to the use of pronouns:

Prefer gender-neutral language when uncertain.

Use stated pronouns (when known).

None of these statements actually invalidate the goal of keeping posts clean from irrelevant phrases. The problem is that people can too easily take offense for these edits, regardless of what kind of noise they had. I've had people insisting that I had vandalized their post, and that I should have apologised, for removing an unrelated complaint. Needless to say that, despite these reactions being a violation of the CoC, they'll just keep happening as long as there are users with the wrong expectations.

Key problem: with or without this policy, even if it has been suggested elsewhere by staff, we won't be any better off. People with continue exploring the post's body for unrelated information, people will continue complaining about edits, and the rollback wars will keep happening. Just as this problem isn't specific to the use of preferred pronouns, it doesn't call for exceptions on how we handle the problem.

And here's what I would recommend here: act in good faith, assume good intentions; and in this mindset, clear the noise as usual.

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  • 17
    I agree the CoC leaves us no better off, but further think it actually leaves us worse off. Among other problems it opens the door to and even enshrines an exception case where "assuming good intentions" is no longer the norm.
    – Caleb
    Commented Oct 13, 2019 at 7:13
65

TL;DR

Adding (my preferred pronouns are she/her) to a post should be treated same as a Thank you.

... doesn't adhere to site's standards is false courtesy.


Not only is it irrelevant, it actually contradicts Q8 of the infamous Official FAQ on gender pronouns and Code of Conduct changes which reads:

Q8: How should I identify my pronouns if I choose to do so?

Whether and how you identify your pronouns is up to you. If you choose to do so, add it to the “About Me” section of your user profile.

Such a preference should be indicated on the user profile, but the question is:

Does one check the profile of a user before posting an answer/reaction (be it a comment)?

The current CoC may have a negative impact on the quality of posts if not carefully managed.

IMHO, it seems weaponised rather than relevant.

The reality is that, a well framed question will most likely not require "these new rules"; the simple English grammar ones should suffice (and much easier for individuals who acquired English as a second language).

4
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    FWIW, Q8 itself seems contradictory to me. It says "Whether and how you identify your pronouns is up to you." (emphasis mine), but then goes on to say that the "how" is to add it to the "About me" section. Either the how is up to you (first sentence) or the how is specified (second sentence), but both together don't make sense. Maybe the first sentence should have read only "Whether you ..." (no how), if the intent is that the profile section is the correct way to specify pronouns. Or perhaps the second sentence instead means "in addition to other ways, do this". Dunno.
    – BeeOnRope
    Commented Oct 12, 2019 at 18:23
  • 3
    @BeeOnRope I think you are misinterpreting "how." It doesn't mean "how you want to tell people about your pronouns," but "how you choose to identify yourself." In other words "What pronouns you choose to use is up to you." At least, that is how I read those sentences. (Though I do agree that a good policy should be worded more carefully, so misunderstandings cannot occur.)
    – trlkly
    Commented Oct 13, 2019 at 10:46
  • 1
    @trlkly - thanks, that interpretation makes sense to me.
    – BeeOnRope
    Commented Oct 13, 2019 at 14:43
  • Nice. I read Q8 as "you can express it however you want" and "you can add it to the profile of you like". Nice to know it's not the only interpretation. Commented Oct 19, 2019 at 10:53
64

When I asked about this directly to Cesar M:

@CesarM I'm a little confused -- are you saying if someone writes a question on SO (or any site really) and says at the bottom of it

"thanks,
John Doe
(he/him)"

you think that should stay in the question? – TylerH 10 October 2019

His response was this:

@TylerH you can remove the thanks, you should leave he/him. I know this is a big departure from what we do right now, and it is less than ideal. Until we have a better solution, please do so. That said, I don't foresee this happening a bunch on main sites, and if someone does really want to have that in there, I'd rather leave it in there. As a suggestion, I'd recommend people to do so in the comments, but please don't remove from bodies. – Cesar M ♦ 10 October 2019

Source

Considering there's been no clear/official employee response there (or here) yet, I've requested some clarification in an answer to the CoC announcement on Meta Stack Exchange.

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    CesarM is on the so-called community team. This seems official enough to me. (Not implying I agree)
    – MSalters
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 18:08
  • 10
    @MSalters By official I mean posted in the question. A comment reply is easily deleted by a non-employee or perhaps even a few like-minded regular users (for ex if 6 people got together and flagged the comment as spam or rude it'd be auto deleted) with no trace. Even if it's not deleted, it's still contradicting what the question says, and I'd put the question's contents first in 'order of canonicity' there.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 18:16
  • 72
    I can't wait to see what other noise we have to leave in people's answers next
    – Richard
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 19:01
  • 32
    The whole thing seems to be a noise to me. This (SO, not all *.SE) is a technical Q&A website. WTH gender has to do with it?
    – Berriel
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 23:28
  • 1
    @Berriel what gender has to do with it is that, if a trans or nonbinary person does not feel safe from misgendering, they will not post here. What gender has to do with it is that misgendering was a problem here. If no one every gendered anyone, then there wouldn't be a need for any rules on gender. But clearly people were. I think more ire should be directed towards these people who f'ed it up for the rest of us.
    – trlkly
    Commented Oct 13, 2019 at 11:02
  • 20
    @trlkly but feeling unsafe to post is part of the process. Making a case for gender is nonsense. I don't know about you, but the first time I posted on SO, I felt "safe" only after having done my job. I know whoever was going to help me deserved an objective and accurate question, and I don't see when gender would play a role in this process. Again, I am talking about SO only, and as someone already told somewhere, I only know two ways to refer to people around here: the OP and @. This cannot and will not be seen as a CoC violation.
    – Berriel
    Commented Oct 13, 2019 at 12:15
  • 1
    @Richard (Europe/European/from Europe)... Why not? I might move to another continent once. I'm still European, even if I change the location on my profile page to this new continent... Commented Oct 13, 2019 at 15:37
  • 2
    @Berriel *feeling unsafe to post is part of the process*—wrong. It may be how some of the community made the process, but this was never an explicit goal, and the community has taken steps to avoid creating fear around posting. Commented Oct 14, 2019 at 12:36
  • 2
    @trlkly I’m not sure safe is the right word here—misgendering a person online does not usually directly cause any physical harm to that person. It may hurt feelings, or cause certain feelings, but I’m not convinced it causes any danger. (I dont disagree with the rest of your comment—that misgendering was an issue—but this is about feelings, not safety. Concept creep has conflated the two) Commented Oct 14, 2019 at 12:39
  • 2
    @D.BenKnoble I agree that safe (even though we are talking about feeling safe) is not the right word here. I assumed trlkly was using the same language as the "safe space" people. Feeling unsafe, insecure, vulnerable when one decides to express itself (be it posting a question online or talking to someone else on the streets) is natural. You don't need to set this as an explicit goal. It will always be true if you are dealing with humans. If you want to tell others that we should create an environment in which it is not, then good luck.
    – Berriel
    Commented Oct 14, 2019 at 12:57
  • 1
    @Berriel I'm not sure this is the place for extended discussion (happy to take it to chat), but: I agree that it is natural to feel insecure or vulnerable when expressing oneself (I'm not going to use the word safe). However, it is not a required part of the process. Some don't feel that way. My (admittedly visceral) reaction was a result of mis-reading your comment to imply that this "barrier to entry" was a laudable goal for SO. I overreacted; I hope you'll forgive my disingenuous reading. That said, I stand by the idea that the community should work towards helping posters feel secure by... Commented Oct 14, 2019 at 14:03
  • 1
    ...not making them feel insecure, being polite and respectful, and stepping away when we cannot do so. We can disagree and work towards quality questions without being mean, and we can do so without letting our feelings get in the way. Commented Oct 14, 2019 at 14:06
  • 5
    Hi. Can people please point me to concrete examples of where misgendering has hurt or degraded someone on SO that would have been entirely avoided by putting preferred pronouns in their question text? Commented Oct 15, 2019 at 6:33
  • 2
    This is really strange and contradicts all other rules of editing questions/answers. I respect everybody while saying this
    – demonplus
    Commented Oct 15, 2019 at 11:14
40

Moderator note: after investigating the context, we found that the post had been made in bad faith with a sock puppet. We removed the account. – Martijn Pieters♦ 7 hours ago

That scares me a lot. What would happen if I post a question/answer with a line which indicates my preferences like this:

(my preferred pronouns are he/his)

How would you know if this post was made in bad or good faith?

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    They'd investigate the context, what do you think?
    – Alex M
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 17:23
  • 23
    @AlexM they will investigate context in every such post? And how will they investigate it?
    – sanyassh
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 17:25
  • 8
    @AlexM silly question, but I will answer: no, I am not. I want to know how mods will make difference between trolls and normal people who really want to point out their preferences.
    – sanyassh
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 17:28
  • I imagine that in cases where the distinction's not clear, they'll investigate the context. But I'm just guessing!
    – Alex M
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 17:30
  • 22
    Moderators don't tend to announce how they make determinations like that so that it's not a simple matter of avoiding the actions moderators are looking for when trolling. However, if I were in the moderator's position, one of the ways I would probably be confident that someone is trolling would be to observe something like "New account posts a question. New account has same IP address as old account. Old account recently commented on the main discussion 'Oh no, now people are going to put pronouns in questions!' Conclusion: The user is just testing the limits of what's allowed in bad faith."
    – Davy M
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 17:40
  • 39
    ... and they should test it, be it in bad faith or not. The company put something is place without properly consulting the community. Now, they are not answering the difficult questions and they want us to trust in the CMs, which is a joke in itself. kudos to the troll.
    – Berriel
    Commented Oct 11, 2019 at 21:54
  • 6
    The scary aspect here is that people feel they have to resort to sockpuppetry because they either can't ask the question normally in fear of retaliation or they didn't get a answer because the official "rules" cannot be logically applied and the actual rules are unwitten, unchallengable, untestable and arbitrary, and therefore can only be probed by experiments. Commented Oct 12, 2019 at 11:20
  • 3
    A sock puppet is not just a second account. It is a second account being used to pretend that something has more users supporting it than it actually does. Or it can be an account used to create a strawman for your main account to shut down. Such should be shut down, as said user is being deliberately misleading. On the other hand, using an account to in order to remain anonymous should be allowed.
    – trlkly
    Commented Oct 13, 2019 at 10:44
  • 2
    @Barriel Testing where the lines are is generally considered bad behavior in any forum I've ever been in. It's similar to trying to find a loophole in a rule. It's treated the same way it would be in real life--that guy who is constantly trying to figure out where line on how mean he can be gets kicked out. I would very much expect that such users would get a severe punishment in order to discourage such activity--maybe even an IP ban.
    – trlkly
    Commented Oct 13, 2019 at 11:00
21

It doesn't matter because nobody does this.

4
  • 21
    In light of subsequent developments, this downvoted and ignored answer seems to be the most appropriate response, ironically. Commented Oct 12, 2019 at 16:02
  • 5
    It is being done as we speak - there's a wave of edits adding such info to posts. Example. Commented Oct 16, 2019 at 9:07
  • 2
    @vicky_molokh It seems sensible to consider separate the situations of someone legitimately adding preferred pronouns to new posts, and someone spamming such edits to old posts as a means of protest. In the case of ‘Thank you’, for instance, the former is quietly removed whereas the latter would likely deserve an infraction.
    – Veedrac
    Commented Oct 16, 2019 at 22:45
  • I still don't know why someone would tell anyone what their preferred pronouns are. This seems like a remedial English consideration more than anything. Pronouns already work a certain way. Commented Oct 23, 2019 at 22:03
14

When looking at it from the viewpoint of content management, one could edit the post, with the simple reason: "fluff removed". There might be sites on the network where explicitly declaring one's biological or proclaimed gender would make sense (eg. biology, dating or RPG), but in a technical context, this obviously isn't the case. In English this is less complex, than in languages with gendered nouns. And for people with little command of the English language, this doesn't make it any easier or more welcoming.

Tacitus ~ The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws.

11
  1. Many of the users are using nicknames (Almost all of them, I think I'm the odd one).
  2. Context of the question, way of adressing of question, the problem questions adresses; also answers - never require any gender specific way to ask/answer.
  3. I'm not an active user at there, but, Interpersonal SE may require gender pronouns. But users who asks/answers questions at there are already aware of is this required or not. Also, if question requires a dictation of gender (because the OP thinks to correctly adress/solve the problem, gender information is required), OP will also provide this information in question, as any logical being will do.

I can understand people who wants to protect theirselves and/or express themselves, from their gender-specific perspective; but this site is for getting information. When did this site became a place for provocation tool? We're here to get/share information, not to change society, and in itself this is a long topic to talk about, make provocations or anything like that.

One critical problem I can see, that will disturb some users is (this also seems weird to me, too) in some questions, when people talk about someone - a user, a consumer etc. - they use generalized format of saying "him/he/his", also in answers too. If users of SO/SE left this behaviour aside, no one will feel need of explaining which pronoun they want to get adressed with. At least that is my opinion.

I hope I could explain myself, I wanted to share my idea about this.

7

Can I suggest an alternative to the as-of-now official resolution? Apparently even the CMs agree that it is at odds with other common practices deeply rooted here so I'll take the liberty to assume it's not the final word.

If the pronouns are clearly noise (don't add value to the technical part of the question), remove what you can and write a comment along the following lines:

As a general rule, we tend to delete non-topical information in the bodies of the question. {Link to where it says don't introduce yourself and TIA in the questions.} I understand that clarifying your preferred pronouns is important to you, so I kept them in, but please consider moving them yourself in a more suitable place like the "About me" section of your profile, or your username.

4
  • 4
    This is a good suggestion, but I would prefer for that explanation to be in the edit summary rather than a comment. First, it keeps the noise down, which is always an issue with comments. Second, it's a more semantic place for it anyway, as the comment explains and justifies the edit. Edit descriptions have a more strict character limit, so you'll need to trim that down, but that can be done easily. You could even make it one of the canned rejection reasons. Ironically, though, it's not been needed in ~10 years, and wouldn't be needed now except for encouraging people to add this.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Oct 12, 2019 at 19:36
  • 2
    If I've understood correctly, CesarM said the current solution being temporary.
    – Teemu
    Commented Oct 12, 2019 at 19:50
  • @Teemu-callmewhateveryouwant I must have seen that and forgotten. Well, what I write could still be considered in the meantime.
    – The Vee
    Commented Oct 12, 2019 at 19:51
  • Well, I added "my pronouns" to my user name last night, as you've suggested now, I'm sorry for the inconvenience, but it stays until this mess is fixed. I've seen some posts treating the pronouns in the username as not a good idea, though. I'm just wondering, when people learn out of "me" ...
    – Teemu
    Commented Oct 12, 2019 at 19:56
0

I have never seen this as problem. If I have done this and hurt someone, then educate me, and of course I will apologise. It's quite hard to fix a problem you are not aware of.

-4

It appears that the current situation is:

  • Don't edit it out.
  • But it's clutter.

The reason why both of this applies, is simple:

  • The information will be lost
  • SO tries to put questions and answers in front, while removing clutter in between.

In the old days, it doesn't (or shouldn't) matter who asks a question, the same text (if it were not a dupe) would work on any user.

But now we need to express additional information about the poster, and we don't have a dedicated place to put this information.

tl;dr: This new information has nothing to do with the question itself, but is important (at least for SO Inc.), so it can't be removed.

1
  • 2
    I know that this "answer" doesn't provide any solution. It's just here to point this out. I don't say that this is correct. Commented Oct 13, 2019 at 21:41

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