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tl;dr: We're removing the "Hot Meta Posts" from Stack Overflow's sidebar while we work on looking at how Meta can better meet its goals. To ensure that moderators are able to bring important posts to the community, we'll be giving them exclusive access to the tag. "Featured on Meta" will remain. This only affects Stack Overflow.

What are we doing?

We're removing the "Hot Meta Posts" section from the right sidebar on Stack Overflow:

Screencap of Stack Overflow's side bar showing hot meta posts

Where and when are we doing it?

This will only affect Stack Overflow / Meta Stack Overflow. Network sites other than Stack Overflow (or sites that otherwise have this functionality disabled) will continue to show hot meta posts.

We'll be doing this at some point in the very near future.

Why are we doing it?

For a mixed-bag of reasons. Way back when, we took a platform that we said wasn't a very good fit for discussion and subjective questions and, as is our style, put it to work just for discussion and subjective questions and called it meta. And it was glorious.

It hasn't scaled very well since then, and we want to evaluate ways that we can make it more deliberately serve the purposes that we hoped it would serve. One of those purposes is helping to make sure that urgent communication from moderators stands a very good chance of being seen, which is why we're giving them exclusive access to the tag.

But, "Hot" on meta can mean vastly different things than it did when we originally rolled out the list feature, and in quite a few cases, questions on the list aren't really ideal discussions to entice new people to come to meta, which was a big purpose of the feature. Lots of things are taking attention away from tag requests, moderators explaining actions taken, and similar things.

Employees will be posting updates on our blog, or sometimes coordinating with moderators to make use of a featured slot. But, it's going to be totally up to the moderators. In fact, I'm not even featuring this one, but a moderator can if they want to (wink, wink).

What's the plan going forward?

We're going to start discovery on how each major function that meta serves could be made more deliberate instead of inverting and contorting our Q&A format a little differently to serve each purpose. As this goes forward, we'll start some discussions about ideas.

Meta is still a great resource, but we need to make what it does and how it does it more clearly-defined and deliberate. While we do that, just think of your favorite "under construction" animated gif. Everyone's welcome if they bring a hard hat, but we want to be more careful with the context and expectations folks bring as they arrive here (or run very quickly away, in some cases).

Questions? Please leave an answer.

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    Comments are not for extended discussion; this conversation has been moved to chat.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Jul 26, 2019 at 17:59
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    Did you know that there's a chatroom about this very question and Sara Chipp's answer? If you've got feedback, it'll have the most permanence by writing an answer. If you'd like to discuss the issue, the chatroom is the place to go.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Jul 26, 2019 at 18:01
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    Semi-serious question: It's my perception that the folks inside of SE don't have a lot of direct interaction with Meta. When you tell them that this question is heavily downvoted, will you also tell them that it's literally got ~2x the downvotes of the infamous "buy rep points for real money" FR? meta.stackoverflow.com/q/326492/1340389 Because I feel like you have to work to get more unpopular than that.
    – Kevin
    Commented Jul 30, 2019 at 20:39
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    I normally don't bother nudging for answers, but you explicitly stated to post an answer if we had questions, but did you have any intention to actually answer them? Commented Aug 6, 2019 at 19:34
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    @Zoe: With the usual caveats: everyone on this site has the absolute right to not respond, including the CM's.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 6, 2019 at 19:37
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    Please undo this. It's obvious from the up/downvote count that it was a hugely unpopular decision. Ever since this was changed, the "Featured on Meta" box is nothing but stale posts. With the Hot Posts I would visit to see what issues other users had raised, not just what mods had flagged. I also find I visit Meta less just because it doesn't seem like anything interesting is going on.
    – j08691
    Commented Sep 19, 2019 at 15:29
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    @j08691 So you are saying that the change was a success for SE. Reducing Meta participation was the goal.
    – 410
    Commented Sep 19, 2019 at 15:38
  • So, has this been reversed finally?
    – MonkeyZeus
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 14:37
  • @MonkeyZeus No, HMP is not back.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 14:38
  • @TylerH dang, I just noticed that featured posts do not have the featured tag and got excited. So I assume they simply did away with that tag.
    – MonkeyZeus
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 14:40
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    @MonkeyZeus No, there's caching to blame there. It takes a while for them to disappear even after the tag is removed from the question.
    – TylerH
    Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 14:41
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    Seems like this company can't handle criticism from its user-base. Probably won't last much longer.
    – Daniel
    Commented Oct 21, 2019 at 14:18
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    So.... this was a lie. Commented Jan 17, 2020 at 21:19
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    @DavidsaysReinstateMonica It absolutely was not. Everything I wrote here was accurate when I wrote it, to the absolute best of my knowledge. Things have changed, that doesn't make me a liar, which is the implication your comment rather abruptly asserts. There are human beings on the other side of the comments you leave, please keep that in mind.
    – user50049
    Commented Jan 18, 2020 at 6:06
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    @SamuelLiew please consider featuring Can we have Hot Meta Posts (HMP) re-enabled now that SE has admitted that Meta actually represents the engaged user base? instead of this one
    – gnat
    Commented Aug 7, 2020 at 4:38

25 Answers 25

560

Tl;Dr: Please don't do this to us.


The Community Bulletin (CB) and the Hot Meta Posts (HMP) have been controversial for a long time. However, they were certainly useful. Most of the users who never visited meta used to drop in once just to get the feel of how we discuss on meta. I am sure that most of the newer users who are now veterans on meta once dropped in because of the HMP. Removing it completely was never a good choice.

I certainly see a lot of issues with the new method that has been implemented (I might be repeating some of the information already shared, sorry for that, but I've just skimmed through the answers):

  1. The onus is now on moderators. Mods can be biased. Mods can feature whatever they like without caring much about the public opinion. There could be fighting amongst mods, which has never happened publicly.
  2. There is a huge added responsibility on mods. We need to be very careful while featuring posts, lest we get a new meta asking why a particular post was featured, and then a flag on that post asking for it to be featured, and then another meta asking why that particular flag was declined.
  3. That brings me to the next problem. It might lead to too many inaccurate "featured-requests" flags. Every user would probably feel that their post requires to be featured on the CB. How exactly do we curate this? We already have a larger burden on the main site (where some mods have been handling more than 200 flags on a daily basis for the past few weeks)
  4. Now, if we were to decline too many of these flags, the users would eventually stop flagging them, and moderators would need to go through the questions and feature them manually. There already are too many questions for us, because of which the meta posts were removed from the moderator inbox. Mods would have to prawl through meta (I guess they do anyway) to find worthy posts.
  5. Now, even if a mod features a post, there would be multiple other posts that need to be featured. The CB needs to be rotated so a particular mod's only duty would be to rotate posts on the CB. This would remove that moderator from doing actual duties like sock puppetry investigation.
  6. Moderators are volunteers, pushing more and more duties on their shoulders does not seem like a good way to attract more users to become moderators. Remember that just 2 days back, a moderator spent 3 long days to handle just one voting ring. There are literally thousands of those out there.
  7. Also, this:

    Lots of things are taking attention away from tag requests, moderators explaining actions taken, and similar things.

    is certainly not very accurate. There are literally 2615 posts that are related to tagging actions (Sorry Makoto It IS Important), and it is impossible to feature them all. The HMP was giving attention to most of them! Removing them from the CB does upset the current procedure with respect to tagging request priorities. Users organically need to upvote them, not just because they are featured, and we do get a lot of incorrect upvotes. The other note about moderators explaining actions taken is also not that important, unless it is huge. We do get a lot of users who post a "why was my flag declined", and we really don't need to feature all of this. And here again, we might have issues related to Conflict of Interest. Why would a moderator feature a post where another moderator has made a mistake and worn a paper bag?

Instead of removing it completely, there are other alternative measures:

  1. Give us an ability to kick off posts from HMP just like the HNQ. This should be a nice compromise. Fix the caching so that we can see changes reflected in atleast a few minutes, rather than few hours.
  2. Tighten the algorithm to feature posts on HMP. HMP is certainly geared for more "controversial" posts rather than interesting ones, and that is by-design. Add in a few of the negatively scored questions as well, as voting on meta is different and lots of downvotes doesn't mean that it is a bad question, but rather a bad feature-requests.

I sincerely hope that you reconsider this decision.

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    I'd love to preserve these comments. Some are good and should be their own answers, and others are chats taking place in the comments. I've moved them to chat.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Jul 29, 2019 at 16:26
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    That's unfortunate.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Jul 29, 2019 at 16:33
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    I, for one, checked out this very post due to the featured meta. It brings people to vote on matters that are important to them. Take away that, and you are basically holding elections behind closed doors. Allow it to be controlled by a select few, and you have biased elections.
    – Jake
    Commented Jul 30, 2019 at 2:34
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    @Jake As per the original post, "Featured on Meta will remain." I feel like that's not being made clear enough, and some people think that's what's going... Commented Jul 30, 2019 at 8:17
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    @MichaelBerry I agree, at first that's what I thought as well, I mean it was right in the title. What I said about it being controlled by a select few was after my realization. I think it could have a negative impact by featuring posts that are important to certain mods and can potentially be used to cover up major posts that may be important to the majority of SO users.
    – Jake
    Commented Jul 30, 2019 at 12:57
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    Me too came here because once I saw the HMP section
    – Gourav
    Commented Aug 2, 2019 at 9:33
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    "Mods can feature whatever they like" Like this "question" where a mod featured their own mini-rant? Commented Jul 23, 2020 at 3:56
288

Out of curiosity, I checked the most recent questions that likely appeared in hot meta posts as indicated by high view count. After removing posts that got a high view count inorganically (due to featured tag) I've got a list of 25.

As far as I can tell, about half of them—12 of 25—seem fairly critical about Stack Overflow (the company):

I can't tell; maybe the above had no impact on the decision to get rid of hot meta posts. But just in case if it had...


...Just in case if popularity of critical posts had an impact on announced change, you might be interested in the approach to featuring that was proposed in comments here:

...here is how we can approximate the old way ourselves:

  1. Moderators regularly post and feature surveys titled "Hot Meta Posts".
  2. People post answers to it nominating particular posts - links with a brief summary / quote.
  3. Moderators feature nominated posts based on certain criteria - like, "posts referred in... answers having score 10 or more"

The primary purpose of the above is to decrease the load of diamond moderators and pass the matters of rating the content to the meta community.

But—in case if it played a role in the decision for this change—please note that it may have a side effect of even higher prominence of critical posts. Given their already demonstrated organic popularity, it is reasonable to assume that such posts will be sufficiently rated by the community to make it into featured.

And—again, in case if critical posts impacted the decision on the discussed change—you may ask yourself a question Tim, aren't you heading to some lose-lose situation?

You see, you will get some extra load for diamond moderators (compared to the prior fully automated way). And this will be compounded by an even stronger promotion of critical posts. If this is not quite what you wanted, please keep in mind that you have an option to rollback this change, as suggested e.g. in top answer here.


Kind of update, recent attempt to limit featuring of moderator resignation notices makes even stronger feeling that powers of the company try to limit exposure of critical posts at Stack Oveflow sidebar. If needed, refer respective discussion for more details:

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    That list doesn't look anything like what has actually been published in Hot sidebar of late. Majority of it has been of little interest to the masses
    – charlietfl
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 23:22
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    see also: Streisand effect -- "a phenomenon whereby an attempt to hide, remove, or censor a piece of information has the unintended consequence of publicizing the information more widely, usually facilitated by the Internet. It is an example of psychological reactance, wherein once people are aware that some information is being kept from them, their motivation to access and spread it is increased..."
    – gnat
    Commented Jul 26, 2019 at 15:21
181

The community should've been consulted before just springing the change on us.

Even if it's not perfect, I found this feature a useful way to find out about important issues affecting the community. It's also a good way to bring attention to major issues affecting the community as a whole for people that don't necessarily frequent Meta but might have a useful contribution on an issue.

That aside, I don't understand what problem this is supposed to fix. The original post doesn't describe any specific harm the feature was causing other than just stating "well, it hasn't done what we originally thought it would."

Ultimately, the real reason appears to be stated in the second-to-last paragraph - that the OP simply dislikes Meta in general, and would prefer that only moderator-selected (rather than democratically-selected) items are shown publicly.

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    The only obvious point in hiding hot meta posts is to sweep as many issues as possible under the rug. Which (along with a long time of subtle feedback, or lack thereof) is the opposite of wanting to consult us about anything. This change for some weird and inexplicable reason looks exactly like an attempt at sidelining meta. Probably a coincidence though. Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 21:32
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    'The community should've been consulted before just springing the change on us.' - Story of our lives recently.
    – Script47
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 21:33
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    @AndrasDeak Yeah, I think that sidelining Meta is exactly the point. If not, that's sure how it looks. Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 21:33
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    Honestly, consulting us first wouldn't have worked since we'd have had a whinge about it (as in, what we're doing now just without the feature suddenly changed) and there would still be some non-zero amount of pressure to get this addressed in one way or another, external from any of our discussion. Remember: our feedback will always be weighed and taken into account, but at the end of the day, it really is the company that makes the final call.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 21:46
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    @Makoto our feedback will always be weighed and taken into account No, it won't - that's exactly what didn't happen here. Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 21:48
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    I'm doing my damnedest right now to keep my cool about this whole thing. It sucks to feel like we're just being ignored or bowled over. The tricky thing here is that this isn't a linear progression. A decision was made, and the community gets its opportunity to give feedback. Whether or not we come in before or after the fact is not indicative of our feedback getting weighed. We can say "we don't like that you did this, change it back", but that may or may not actually be tenable. We don't know. I'd say be patient, but everyone's patience has limits.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 21:50
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    I can see @Makoto's point; apply this scenario to the New Contributor icon. It was suggested, most of the feedback was negative, and it happened regardless. Were we listened to? I dunno. Did feedback change anything meaningful about the feature? I doubt it. There's going to be some things we won't be able to change, and that's going to frustrate everybody. Unfortunately, this is what happens when you go from laissez faire management to being more hands on; we're used to our independence and having agency, and now that's all being taken away.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 21:51
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    @Makoto It sucks to feel like we're just being ignored or bowled over. Yeah, especially when it's true. We were bowled over, and they are ignoring us now. Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 21:55
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    With this perspective, do you believe that yelling louder or having a fit about it will really help? The circumstance is what it is. How we deal with it is more important right now.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 21:56
  • @Makoto At this point, that seems like a doctor who breaks your leg and demands that you pay him to set it. This isn't just a case of "it is what it is"; this is a case of an unusually high-handed and cynical "screw you" to the community, done deliberately and with full intention. Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 4:32
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    @EJoshuaS: That presumes a relationship with the doctor. In this case, we're dealing with benevolent dictators. There's a difference, even if the wording is unfortunate; we have a voice but we don't have a final say here.
    – Makoto
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 4:53
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    This removal of community input seems to be the main point. SE, the company, wants to make it easier for employees and mods to tell things to users. It does not want more input from the community or discussion around topics of import to the community's future. This is just the latest point in a pattern of disregarding the community; see the ads discussion preceding this one in the same pattern. It's now more common to see "We're doing X" than "Should we do X?" in meta posts from SE staff. They do not care what the community thinks.
    – WBT
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 15:11
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    @Makoto I think that the "benevolent" part is where we disagree. I see this as high-handed cynicism on their part, not benevolence. Besides, they have at least some obligation to us as customers who generate most of their revenue and are supplying them with something of value. If they no longer see it that way, they should just shut down the entire main site and focus on their other product offerings. Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 15:12
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    @Makoto I've never heard of a company that treats their relationship with their clients as a benevolent dictatorship. A company that blatantly and cynically abuses its customers like this and ignores their stated wishes for the direction of the product is doing something seriously wrong. Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 15:19
  • @Makoto "How we deal with it is more important right now." I nearly entirely left Commented Sep 6, 2020 at 22:46
130

We had our very first (actually second if you count this announcement) "Featured on Meta" post for a couple hours, after which Tim tinkered with it and George took it down.

Screenshot of revision history

I'd like to go on record saying this is not a great start to the change.

I am not a regular Meta partisan, and I was willing to be convinced that the change in OP was a positive one. It's primarily the reaction to featuring of the Facebook Tracking post that I'm writing about here.

Justin says in the comments below that George said "other 'current events' needed the spot," but I'm not sure I understand. What current events? Were there other things competing for placement and you couldn't afford to add an extra slot? My recollection (which could be mistaken) is that there used to be as many as 4 total items in that sidebar block, and there were only three sometime today.

I want to say in the kindest possible way that it is frustrating to see this change couched as a way to promote community and moderator selection, only to see the first example railroaded.

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    Really needs the context of George's comment "Removing this from featured; as there are current events that need that second spot; and if the company hasn't been briefed on this by now, I'm not sure holding up one of our two featured spots is the way to make sure they see it (also, I'll reach out on Chat and get confirmation that a company representative has seen this post)."
    – Justin
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 14:49
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    @Justin the context is not relevant to the problem, each mod can analyze any context and take a different decision based on they knowledge and conclude different things; taking the context in consideration is not what will prevent edit wars. About this specific post, I completely disagree with George (and you?). Meta is not only the place (actually not) to be heard by the company, but to interact with the community IMO. You are tracked if other users you see on pages use FB avatars, not if you use them, as the title change suggests. And users should know about it until solved!
    – Kaddath
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 15:01
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    I mention those events in this comment: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/387599/…
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 15:18
  • Thanks, @GeorgeStocker, that's helpful. Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 15:22
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    Amusingly, the feature appears to have been bugged such that the Facebook post is remaining pinned, even though the tag was removed hours ago. :P Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 16:02
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    @JeremyBanks While I understand the irony, I'm not exactly amused. Someone somewhere is probably writing a unit test to make sure the next version of the sidebar doesn't pin items indefinitely. Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 16:23
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    Wait, @GeorgeStocker you're saying mods only have space for two [featured] posts?
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 21:52
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    @tylerH Yes, that's what I'm saying. (I may be wrong; but I only see two on my sideboard even though we have three active).
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Jul 25, 2019 at 2:23
  • @Michael the caching issues with the CB has been known for a very long while. I've complained Shog until he, literally, kicks the things to fix them.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 25, 2019 at 17:35
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The feature was pretty high variance. It was occasionally good at getting attention to posts that could really use it, but that didn't seem important or official enough for a mod to feature them. But it also featured lots of stuff that just didn't really matter and wasn't worth tons of people looking at.

But to help encourage mods to actually use the featured tab to draw attention to posts with a lot of activity, even if they're not necessarily some official policy change or anything like that, I'd like to see an auto-mod flag on any post that would have been a "hot meta question" on the old criteria. This would give mods the opportunity to not feature the post if it really just isn't something worth discussing, but would give them some good candidates to choose from, and if it happens to pick a bad question, could be the reminder the mods need to go find a better question to go and feature for that time period, because I worry that after a few days of this being a new and shiny thing for mods to play with, they'll start forgetting to feature interesting questions or change what's featured.

You could even take it a step further and have Community♦ post an auto comment that it's nominated for possible featuring, to let others weigh in and see what's not being nominated, but that might just end up being too noisy.

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    That sounds like a pretty good idea, actually. Whether it can actually be accomplished in a practical way is an open question.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 18:12
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    @RobertHarvey Well we already have all of the code to figure out what the hot posts should be, and I assume the code to create an automatic flag is pretty simple (as those flags with different messages happen all over) so it should be fairly easy to pull together, I'd expect.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 18:16
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    It's not the code, it's the bureaucracy.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 18:16
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    @RobertHarvey Have Andy write a bot to put a message in the mod chat?
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 18:18
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    Interesting, I was under the impression that bureaucracy made everything slow, but this change came like a bolt out of the blue.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 18:49
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    @Braiam Presumably this change was proposed internally 2 years ago, and is only now being implemented.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 18:50
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    Dunno you, but this change reeks to reactionary, rather than carefully planned.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 18:51
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    @Braiam I was being ironic...I tried real hard to be hyperbolic to ensure it'd come off...guess I failed.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 18:55
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    I know. I'm just following your lead.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 18:55
  • Long as it doesn't flood the mods too bad (I don't know how many questions we get that qualify on a daily basis, after all. Would be a nice stat to see.) this is a great way to shift this around. Wonderful suggestion.
    – Kendra
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 20:42
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    @Kendra I know the old system was designed to not change too often, so that people in different timezones would all have a chance to see the same questions. It wasn't something that updated in real time super often, although I don't know the exact algorithms it used.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 20:55
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    Let me run some numbers on what that output would look like.
    – user50049
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 4:02
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    I think this is a really good suggestion.. Any update on the numbers you've run @TimPost ?
    – Remy
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 11:33
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    @remy_rm As soon as I get my VPN client working again. I'm gonna need to get a dev involved too, because I'm almost positive code for that calculation lives outside of the query, too. There's also a velocity thing we use in our internal chat rooms that could help mods find posts that gain traction all of a sudden, including ones that hadn't had any activity for 3 or so years. In short, I'm going to try my best to get them something put together, and I'll post back.
    – user50049
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 18:26
  • It is a way for 'ordinary users' to express their voice. Commented Jul 29, 2019 at 15:15
111

I'm not a fan. In the entire history of Stack Exchange, the role of moderators has been that of janitors and mediators, not content curators and editors.

We had this famous saying here that mods are exception handlers, and that we never expect our mods to be proficient in any particular policy or technical field. It's been a core tenet in how we've selected our moderators and it's been the one thing they could always ensure the community to get a higher buy-in for their actions than moderators otherwise would anywhere else.

Now you've essentially made them executive editors, so they are supposed to exercise jurisdiction and "expert opinion" on which discussions are worthwhile on meta. If this sticks around, it'll definitely have to become part of the selection criteria in the next elections.

I'm not sure if there will be much infighting (considering our mods are usually chosen at least in part for being scrupulously reasonable), but it's a huge burden you've placed on them, and by doing so, they've become an even bigger target for any perceived slights people may feel when their post doesn't get featured while others do.

Good luck.

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    Well said, this was the first thing that occurred to me when I read this post, and this is the exact reason why they shouldn't go ahead with this change.
    – slugster
    Commented Jul 28, 2019 at 10:50
86

I had no idea that employees were struggling so badly with this.

I don't intend to contest that point, or even to contest this decision, in particular. I am personally not that invested in Meta, so I'll leave those issues to others.

But it does seem to be at least slightly ironic. If staff find Meta to be toxic to the degree that it's literally giving them nightmares and panic attacks, consider that said toxicity may be at least in part due to the increasing feeling in the community that the company holds the community in utter contempt. Incremental signals that the community will no longer hold an active role in the decision-making process of the network only contribute to that feeling. Yet it is exactly that feeling that caused the environment from which you're trying to shield your employees! Certainly none of that is an excuse for abusive behaviour, but stoking the fire strikes me as a strange approach to resolving the problem.

(I am at least satisfied that CMs are working on the problem, which may suggest this is a temporary "truce" until things can be sorted out properly.)

Anyway, I guess staff now won't have to witness Meta's further descent, but I can't imagine any other result at this point. Trust between the community and the company is pretty much gone. After the data breaches, privacy debacles, welcoming and whatever else, it's hard to see how the relationship would ever be repaired.

And I realise that this may not necessarily seem like something the company should actually really worry about, what with paid offerings starting to bring in revenue and a whole legion of non-Meta contributors spamming their endless one-line JavaScript and C# fixes to pump up that "number of questions answered" number that powers your marketing. Who actually needs the disgruntled experts who have been around for the longest, then? The company can go on without them, right? We don't need them so much that we need to pain ourselves to help rebuild this relationship, right?

If that's a question that gets asked internally (if!), to that I would say that I believe you underestimate just how important such people are to your offering. I would say that you underestimate how much they are your offering. After ten years of free contributions that are the product, now may not be the best time to take those contributions for granted.

All that being said, thank you Sara for bringing us your reasoning, and thank you for looking out for your team, and I hope everybody feels better.

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    We've had (more than?) our share of differences in the past, but I'd like to go on record as saying that I think you've raised excellent points. Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 16:35
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I'm unsure what kind of control you now have handed over. In all the elections I never considered if the candidate I voted on would be any good in selecting which Meta post should be featured.

I even doubt if moderators are any good at that either. I only know of one process that regularly features posts and that is the burnination process. And the moderator governing that regularly prevents an overcrowded featured list by postponing some burns. Having a manually-curated list will only cause friction between mods, CMs, staff, and the community.

How do the right questions get featured? Are we supposed to flag questions to get them featured? Most flags wins? Do we need to post on Meta to organize support to feature a question? Do mods roll the dice? Run a bot? Have a daily meeting about it? Cause some uproar in a chatroom? Bribery?

I have already seen other bad ideas in the earlier-posted answers and comments.

I guess it is best to thank you at this point for giving us more control. I doubt we have the right tools yet, let alone a process to make this work. If we screw this up in 6 to 8 weeks, please consider turning the feature back on.

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    I nominate "deathmatch" as the method of resolving debates. Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 21:07
  • 1
    I think that the only solution is that all questions get the featured tag, and when every meta post is featured, no one will be. That's the best compromise to this change.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 22:14
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    @Braiam All meta posts are equal, but some are more equal than others.
    – BJ Myers
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 22:57
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    oh, I feel bad for the mods having to deal with all the new custom reason flags for "feature this meta" requests Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 3:44
  • 4
    @BJMyers I was going for some The Incredibles quote.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 14:50
  • 4
    @Braiam Yep, I caught that one. But I thought Animal Farm fit as well. :)
    – BJ Myers
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 17:16
81

A Call to mods: Please tag all posts from SO employees as

I've lost a lot of faith in SO over the past year or so and I don't really trust that this isn't a way for them to just sweep more power-user-unfriendly changes under the rug. They've given you the ability to use , so please help to community make sure that important posts remain seen.

Jeremy Bank's comment correctly implies that there might not be consensus on what is or isn't worthy. I hope that having a blanket rule will make it simple and allow the community to decide.

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  • 4
    Sometimes the staff use to feature posts... there's only so many that can be featured at a time... and as mods, there's always been something we'd like to feature we'd felt important for the community, but was unsure of "un-featuring" something a CM did... (if that makes sense?).... So, I think the rule of thumb is, we'll feature stuff that's important for what we need as a community whether it be from staff or not.
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 19:33
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    (mods have always had the ability to (un)feature posts, but it's always been in conflict with company announcements or updates etc...) - so now, at this point on, it'll only be your elected mods and not the company that chooses what goes here for attention?
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 19:36
  • 2
    @JonClements That's what I hope for, at least.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 19:44
77

Are you afraid that posts like Require Participation in a Community Before Making Decisions that Affect That Community's Future and People MUST be rewarded for finding duplicates are drawing more attention than necessary for expanding your Stack Overflow product ecosystem?

moderators now fully control

Eh, not really what I'm seeing recently

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I have several questions both about the removal, as well as related to Sara's answer (which were initially asked in chat, but all except one appear to have been outright ignored, so I'm upgrading this to an answer).

First off, I've seen several inconsistencies between what you've said, and what has actually happened. The blog post completely nailed the cause of the anger, which along with the implementation of feature requests and so far fantastic work from the development team made me hope the site could improve. Yaakov Ellis wrote an answer to a "thank you" question after feature requests started being implemented and wrote something you should think about:

[...] I hope that we are able to continue to (re)earn your collective trust in this area.

At least to me, you were doing well until this.

But what you're now saying is that you're removing Hot Meta Posts because "I have not observed this to be a place where people are polite and professional." and you therefore "don't want to send new people to a place where people have these experiences."? As far as I can tell from the answer, it outlines bad psychological effects on employees, because meta is unpolite. Personally, I feel the positives are assigned less weight, even though you claim you're not overlooking positives.

It also took you three months to reply to the Facebook thread, a thread that needed a staff reply much earlier. Not because we need a fix now, but to know that you're at least aware of it, and plan to take action (or for that matter, don't), at least in 6-8 arbitrary time units.

I can’t, with good conscience, force anyone to participate in a venue that causes that type of psychological damage at work.

The reason you're doing this, to me, appears to be to protect employees. I understand the point, but removing Hot Meta Posts is a bit like hiding under a tarp while there's a tornado heading for you. Meta is still here, the same users are still here, and the employees are still apparently forced to participate in meta.

This leads to a question: Why are you forcing employees to participate in meta when you know it's bad for their mental health? If you're really doing this, then I feel sorry for your employees, but you are still partially at blame for creating an environment like that.

But why does protecting employees result in removing a feature that only helps users who are less active on meta stay up to date?

Hot Meta Posts has never forced anyone to participate. It's a suggestion for stuff to read and maybe participate in. The removal resulted in the moderators reaching out for ideas. The highest upvoted idea at the time of writing is creating a script that uses views and votes to determine what should be featured. Doesn't that sound an awful lot like Hot Meta Posts to you? The only difference, if implemented, will probably be a minor algorithm difference, but overall result in the same recommendations. Potentially, all you're going to end up with is Hot Meta Posts in a different form, manually rewritten from scratch under a different name.

So, who are you trying to protect?

Users will find their way here in one way or another. Employees are (were?) apparently forced to participate here as well, so why remove it at all?

So far in this discussion, I've seen meta being pictured as an impolite, unprofessional place, and that's why they're depriving users of meta updates. SO, meta, and the rest of the network, in spite of those few users who really are rude and unprofessional, is still one of the few sites I actually feel safe on.

If something nasty shows up, there are flags, and moderators who review them, and take action. Last I checked, employees have as much access to flags as regular users, if not more (especially if they have cross-site diamonds).

Remember reprex? It was, until this question, the most downvoted question of all time here on meta. After user feedback (not personal attacks and "you should feel bad for suggesting such an idea"), Shog used that to create a middle-ground term, which really is an improvement.

If the issue is negativity, decisions like this one will not give you a better view of how the community react. Hell, I'm negative to this change, presumably along with the (currently) 403 users who downvoted the question. You can't get around negativity, but negativity isn't inherently bad. Toxicity is bad, however, and by giving moderators full access over [featured], you're indirectly forcing them to take on more responsibility, while trying to handle toxicity, potentially slowing down response times (which have been amazing up until recently, with a response time on flags in a few minutes, if not seconds).

Just to be clear, I'm not trying to invalidate employee experiences, but your answer and chat reply still makes it look like you see meta as filled with a bunch of evil people out to get employees whenever possible. Someone in chat mentioned that question as an exception, and pointed to the emoji thread, but the question itself doesn't appear to attack anyone.

If HMP really was removed to prevent users from coming to meta, that kind of explains your motivation behind the new homepage...

If you're trying to protect employees with this, then you've more or less failed. Employee posts can still be featured, either manually, or automatically if the script is created.

Have you thought about the moderators? The ones you're now pushing more work on? They're already busy enough because of the system in which there's a very limited amount of moderators. You're also pushing away all kinds of users - both users who may have an interest in meta, as well as people like me (at least a month ago) who's a passive meta reader.

Have you thought about what happens when there's conflict about the tag? What do you do if there's disagreement and it turns into a featured rollback war? The chance of a rollback war happening are low because, well, moderators, but there's still a chance it can happen.

Not to forget about flags - IIRC, the idea is to flag posts that should be featured. How long does it take until the flag queue here on meta requires as much job as on main, if not more? What do you do if moderators stop reviewing meta flags entirely to focus on main?

Problems

  • You're loading the few moderators with even more work
  • You're depriving passive meta users of access to posts
  • You're removing it to potentially be replaced with a script that does, well, the exact same thing HMP does.
  • The psychological well-being of employees is still an issue

Also, does this seem right?

Picture showing 3 questions tagged featured, but only two in the list

Two additional featured posts suppressed this one. How do you now expect to present critical posts "everyone" must see alongside posts of potential interest? HMP appears to be capable of several, and live alongside featured on meta.

What's worse is that this is actually by design.

If meta is the problem as a system, replace it. I know you have plans to find an alternative, but temporarily reducing access to it while you're literally 6-8 arbitrary time units away from finding alternatives isn't good for the community.

You have stated 0.015% of the active users are on meta. Do you really think removing one of the things that get people on meta will improve that? You're still reducing access to important posts, which will still result in a minority of users being represented. If you want more people to be represented, you need to give them a way to find posts without having a meta tab open 24/7. You can create an organized system, add banners for users, let users subscribe to notifications for posts that go into a voting stage, lower the meta voting requirement, but you don't remove one of the access ways to meta, and only leave a tiny, hidden URL in a dropdown that's pushed off the screen on small devices so you can advertise your own products.

Stack Overflow is a massive site, and I bet most users have enough work getting used to main to get started on meta when they hit 5 rep. Also, of those 0.015% of active users who participate on meta, is that with or without <5 rep users? ~27% of all users have access to meta (which is your fault for setting a requirement to participate). Not that it matters, since meta is deprioritized anyway.

No matter how you look at it, breaking down communication further while you try finding an alternative to meta will not benefit anyone. We're still stuck with this system, and breaking it further won't help with consensus on future cases, and it won't help with the meta participation percentage.

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  • 8
    On the "advertise your own product", I literally had a junior Data Engineer I was training say "I thought SO was dead, their app doesn't work." because he typically just uses a tablet & his phone when working on systems on location. Commented Jul 25, 2019 at 14:26
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    Chat, the apps, the mod tools, and probably more projects have just been abandoned. They're at least starting to work on some of these, but I imagine the backlog is pretty big. Commented Jul 25, 2019 at 14:28
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    I'm starting to wonder if they even see the main site as a product anymore. If so, it's not clear who they think the customers are. Commented Jul 25, 2019 at 16:16
  • I also totally agree with you about it being unclear how things are supposed to work differently than the HMP algorithm. Commented Jul 25, 2019 at 16:22
  • 1
    @EJoshuaS No matter what, the community has gotten a lot of worked dumped on it to get this to work, either manually or automatically. I'm kinda interested to see how this change has affected the flag queue here on meta Commented Jul 25, 2019 at 19:19
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    Sara's personal observation is that some employees are experiencing a lot of stress. The specific terms in which she describes it imply that the information comes from those employees. (She didn't just walk past someone's desk, conclude that they are stressed, and imagine why they were stressed.) I see no reason not to take that at face value. It's an expression of vulnerability - something we do to invoke empathy. It says, I'm talking like a person, lot a legal adversary. I don't know who those employees are, but I'm glad someone is looking out for them. Commented Jul 26, 2019 at 13:57
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    @ScottHannen: She says, and I quote, that employees have "panic attacks and nightmares when they know they will need to post something to Meta". Panic attacks! That's serious stuff. Sara, however, has no problem nonchalantly blaming Meta users for these alleged but, if true, very traumatic consequences on her colleagues. I see many reasons not to take that at face value. Meta Stack Overflow, or any online community, is not a known cause of workplace PTSD. She's making one side look like anti-social bullies, and the other like snowflakes who can't cope with contradiction.
    – john-hen
    Commented Jul 26, 2019 at 17:19
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    @ScottHannen If employees have legitimate panic attacks, removing HMP is practically ignoring the problem. I can't believe, without it being properly explained, that they think removing a feature that attracts attention to meta will in any way make it better for when employees are forced to post here. Honestly, from that answer, SO doesn't sound like a good place to work. This answer is an attempt to get the real truth, or at least clarifications behind the idea in what appears to be an answer existing purely for sympathy, not to explain why HMP was removed. Commented Jul 26, 2019 at 17:24
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    @JohnHennig - I didn't read blame. What I read was more neutral. When we communicate we're told to use "I" statements rather than "you" statements. That was an "I/we/they" statement. Here's how they feel. It clearly was not, "I blame you for doing something" statement. When you say, "She's making one side look like..." that is a "you" statement. In that sentence you're describing how you feel, but rephrasing it as something she did. If you think that someone meant something, why not just ask a question instead? Commented Jul 26, 2019 at 18:09
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    @Zoe - I've had some pretty awful managers who didn't care at all what kind of meat grinder they fed me into. If someone says they can't sleep at night because of the thought of employees' stress and feel compelled to do something about it, then one the one hand, yes - it sounds like there are some real issues for some people there. And it sounds like they recognize it and want to do something about it. That's good, isn't it? Someone who knows something clearly thought this step would reduce stress. If killing HMP helps a few people sleep better then kill it, bring it back, and kill it again. Commented Jul 26, 2019 at 18:29
65

TL;DR: Even newbie users on SO get quick access to Meta. Those who use it are people who are or might be interested in contributing later, and these are people that SO need to stay alive.

1/ Hot Meta posts are useful at least to Meta newbies

2/ The disunity that is showing is discouraging. It looks tiring for everyone, but if even us newbies can see this, it is also dangerous for the website's future. No one wants to stay on a sinking ship. Please fix this.

Hi there Tim,

An answer from a newbie here on Stack Overflow

I am even more of a newbie on Meta, and with close-to-zero developer skills (work in progress, and the reason I came here in the first place).

IMO you should keep Hot Meta Posts

Stack Overflow is a blessing for those who begin their developer journey. We quickly get access to Meta, and I believe those who use it are the ones who will get more and more involved. I planned to participate once I get more familiar with the platform (and with technical features of course).

Hence my first point:

Hot Meta posts help us newbies understand what the community's current concerns are and points to improve. I think it was a useful and nice feature, and if I'd have to vote, it would be to keep it (with changes if it does not perform well enough).

An elephant in the room?

As for the second point, I've read some Hot Meta posts; the ones that point out certain issues within the core community. Heck, I reached it from this very post (which is kind of ironical) - because you can't contain negative feedback that need to be listened to, even if Meta would be deleted.

I don't understand everything, it looks quite complex, and I only got the (former) moderators / subject-matters experts point of view. I regretted not seeing more CM side of the story (EDIT: if anyone is interested I found Sara Chipp's answer on this thread and apparently this blog post (same author) is related to this matter too (from what I understood the root of the problem on the other side is the accumulation of negative feedback being received as dogpiling. If anyone has more links I'm interested! I kind of lose myself a lot around here.).

But what can be seen is disunion. A long-time growing disapproval from the SMEs, which on a constructive note (because it's something that can be changed) boils down to a great need of listening (or proofs of listening) from the community managers / SO company.

This is discouraging for newbies like me to even participate when I'll have enough skills to do so: I don't want to get exhausted if that's the only future that awaits me!

If this keeps happening (and I believe if the heart of the issue isn't addressed, it will), on the long-term SO's reputation might get to a point so low that no programmer would keep maintaining it. The website would die. This saddens me because it looks like there were a nicer ambiance before, and because it looks like this difficulty can be overcome.

I can be wrong about the situation

Maybe it looks big because a minority shouted loud, because everyone is tired, because we all love drama...

If I'm wrong, then please prove me there has been feedback from the CM, that you are already discussing and fixing this whole "not-listening" critic, or that you have addressed this negative feedback in some way or another, or the reasons you have behind this situation. Or, prove me that what looks high-voted, too common among lots of SMEs and flowing in Meta is the product of a tired minority whose opinion aren't constructive nor relevant.

Otherwise: please fix this. Please get the moderators some feedback, better tools, ensure that the negative feedback disappear, because you fixed the issues together, not because everyone quit.

I want to see this positive shift in the situation happen. I want to keep a vivid will to participate on Stack Overflow, and when this time comes, not get exhausted because we lack tools and that this fact would never change no matter how much I ask for it.

It looks like a big work, and a top-priority. I sincerely wish you the best of luck in achieving this, which I hope you can - even if it takes time.

Thank you.

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  • I have an RSS reader pointed at featured posts and interestingly this answer, not the original question, came out in my RSS reader! I think it's a bug! Commented Jul 25, 2019 at 8:52
  • That's peculiar - is it temporary or should it be fixed ?
    – ToddEmon
    Commented Jul 25, 2019 at 11:51
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    I have stopped contributing to SO. I put it in read-only mode, but will maintain MSO in read-write for a while. Why? SO has already been partially ruined. On MSO, there's actually a community left. SO is filled with garbage; I've already written why I never browse questions. I agree: SO (the company) should switch their MSO mode from write-truncate to read-write or read-only again. Commented Jul 25, 2019 at 19:15
  • @Andreas What is read-only mode?
    – pushkin
    Commented Jul 29, 2019 at 17:19
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    @pushkin in this context, it means they stop contributing to the site, and only read content (because, let's face it, SO still has answers to many questions, even though far too many new questions are trash). This is not to be confused with Stack Overflow's read-only mode, which temporarily locks down the site (usually for maintenance - it's a contribution block for everyone) Commented Aug 2, 2019 at 18:45
54

I don't know if others feel the same, but to me this decision seems just another step taken on the road of "Us VS Them".

It is quite evident right now. The Stack Exchange Network currently had its own share of problems lately. The company... I don't know what the situation is now, but we all know about the massive lay-off that happened some time ago - financial problems, workforce reduction and the such... Has the emergency now ended? I am not sure. "Be nice" problems and public relation ones, Twitter-related incidents, user e-mail disclosures, workers getting personal threats emails even... one incident after another... And they kept coming. Again. And Again. And Again. I don't envy you the slightest - it must have been harsh times. And I work with SharePoint.

And while the staff had its bad time... the community didn't had much more fun. With each new "incident", with each new "meta drama" the userbase (or at least part of them) felt more and more abandoned, betrayed... rejected. Called leonizing users, told that they should be ashamed of themselves as human beings... most of them now lay broken, and any trust they had in what they were doing was lost in the continuous fighting. Some left, some adapted, some no longer care and still exist only by inertia, some started throwing insults at insults... dirty people they called the staff, hope some of you finally lose their work so that someone better may take your place they said... And The Perfect Circle continued.

We have now come to a point that (some) users actively "hate" the staff. And at the same time (some) staff members actively "hate" the users. We have come to a point where interacting with the "enemy" brings "panic attacks and nightmares" (as Sara said in her answer).

Look, I don't want to annoy you again with my thoughts on the various issues we had lately. Some of them, I already post my answers everywhere.... and for the others enough has already been said either way.

I would only like to point out what this last decision looks like to my tired eyes.

Stack Overflow Employees have panic attacks and nightmares when they know they will need to post something to Meta. They are real human beings that are affected by the way people speak to them. This is outside of the CM team, who have been heroes and who I constantly see abused here.

I can’t, with good conscience, force anyone to participate in a venue that causes that type of psychological damage at work. The CMs feel this is something that can be remedied, and I believe them. However, until then, I can’t sleep at night knowing that we are forcing people to participate here as part of their jobs.

We're removing Hot on Meta as I don't want to send new people to a place where people have these experiences. Full stop.

You, we... have come to a pretty dark situation - even talking to each other is hard now, as our voices keep been overwhelmed by the cannon fire between the two armies.

And in this dark night, you took a decision.

You will no longer discuss. You will just communicate. In a final attempt to remove hurtful feedback, you just moved to a place where you will be sure that no other will be able to talk, no one will be able to oppose you, no other will be able to hurt you. Only your voice.

Look, again, I won't comment on how we got to be in this mess. I won't try to analyze the causes. I won't try to give out responsibilities. I won't try to hunt down witches.

I will just point out that in the humble eyes of this stupid and lame user that I am, closing yourself in your nice and comfy chestnut shell won't really solve any problem. Sure, you may not have to actually see them, but they will be still there, waiting for the shell to open. Growing out of hand. And then it will be too late.

I think it is time to ask us what we can do to regain the lost harmony. But the decision is yours. Or we can just buy some Joo Janta 200 Super-Chromatic Peril Sensitive Sunglasses.

Enter image description here


Edit: A little clarification since Mark asked for it in a comment on this post - none of the phrases given as examples in this message is a literal word-by-word quote of something that was said. Instead, they are reworded versions pretty close to the original versions (no, not going to post those). I chose to avoid direct quotes because while I wanted to express the severity of the harm both sides have been hurling at each other, I also didn't want to reopen now - hopefully closed - old wounds by exposing users. I think that we can for example agree that telling someone you hope he will be fired isn't very nice, no mater what exact word were used or who said them.

As for now, I will remove the quotation marks from said lines since after some reading about British English rules it indeed seem that they carry a somehow different meaning that they do in my first language (in my language, they are also used to just express emphasis- in a way similar to italics) , until I can get some insight on better options.

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    I agree with your analysis of the situation we have reached. If we have gotten to the point where employees have actual fear of interacting with their professional contacts (in this case, their customers), then it is clear we have a major problem. Hiding will not solve this problem (hiding never is the cure to fear or anxiety), it will only make it worse. Someone will have to break the cycle. The communication channel between SO and their (account having) users must either be reinvented, or else be broken. Commented Jul 29, 2019 at 9:14
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    I have the (possibly mistaken) impression that the company itself is not yet decided on which option to choose, but I'm afraid that it will decide to sever the communication if the problems persist long enough before a feasible solution is presented. Commented Jul 29, 2019 at 9:15
  • @Discretelizard I kinda agree with your view, with the only difference that I personally fear the decision to "cut communication" has already been made. Ence my post. Commented Jul 29, 2019 at 11:30
  • @SPArchaeologist Perhaps. I have slightly more hope, but especially given that I have little experience with MSO, that may be a bit naive. Then again, if the decision has already been made then trying to influence it is at worst just a waste of time. Commented Jul 29, 2019 at 12:04
51

I was wondering why a couple of my more recent questions had appeared (and just as quickly had disappeared) from this list.

I want to refrain from being accusatory in my feedback here, so I want to focus on this paragraph.

But, "Hot" on meta can mean vastly different things than it did when we originally rolled out the list feature, and in quite a few cases, questions on the list aren't really ideal discussions to entice new people to come to meta, which was a big purpose of the feature. Lots of things are taking attention away from tag requests, moderators explaining actions taken, and similar things.

This strikes me as odd.

  • Was this feature always meant to entice people to come to Meta?
  • There have been a lot of hot-topic discussions which have taken place on Meta which went largely unchecked/unmitigated from a "Hot Topic" perspective. The first* (and ironically the one that enticed me to stay on Meta) was the GoDaddy/SOPA controversy. Other posts have followed, yet they largely fostered in discussion.
  • Tag moderation isn't really that big of a deal (sorry, Bhargav). The people who are in the context of the tags are already an audience on the site, and the people who aren't would be highly unlikely to weigh in, since not a lot of people volunteer to moderate on the site.
  • Moderators explaining actions was always done in-context and I don't recall many of those questions or answers ever rising to "hot topic" levels.

On the surface, this feels like an overreaction to some of the more heated and spirited discussion we've had on Meta for the last month. This doesn't...help that, if the goal is to cool things down. (IMO it turns it into a nice simmer.) Nothing's really stopping a moderator for tagging a somewhat controversial topic as so that it appears in the list.

However, if the goal is to really improve the communication for moderation efforts, then it would've made more sense in my mind to keep this flow broken while it gets improved. Unless I'm irresponsibly overlooking something, the old flow would suffice - even if it was a little gimped - until the new and improved workflow could be fully installed.

*: First by my standards.

51

One of those purposes is helping to make sure that urgent communication from moderators stands a very good chance of being seen, which is why we're giving them exclusive access to the tag.

So, if this is the actual reason, instead of removing the previous feature, couldn't you have done the same thing as we've done with the notifications where your new notifications stand out compared to the rest (bold)? In this case you could've just made the featured mod post stand out:

The meta icon could be red to match the color.

Alternatively, you could have three sections:

  1. Blog
  2. Featured Posts
  3. Hot Meta Posts

Where 2. would only show if there was a featured post available and it would show above the Hot Meta Posts section.

Alternatively, a third method would be to allow randomly selected posts (how the old system worked) and alongside that let mods pin/unpin posts too that way when they haven't featured any posts that bar isn't empty.

I just think that if your concern was communication then you could've tried a lot more things before you committed to this without any discussion.

questions on the list aren't really ideal discussions to entice new people to come to meta, which was a big purpose of the feature.

IMHO, I think this is the real reason for the change and truth be told, rather than hiding these (controversial) posts which are clearly popular amongst the community, surely, we should be drawing attention to them in the hope that (new) users would come across them and give their opinions and thoughts. Not sweeping them under the rug, so to speak.

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    To be fair, your "three sections" idea is how it worked before. If there was a featured post, there were three sections. (At least, as long as there were less than four total items before you got to the hot meta posts) If there wasn't, or there wasn't a blog, then those sections weren't there.
    – Kendra
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 20:33
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    @Kendra then I don't really see where the problem with communication being missed was?
    – Script47
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 20:33
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    Not that I'm aware off. It wasn't often we had that many featured posts, that I can remember. But we have often had a ton of junk in the hot posts, so... I do see that argument, that it's not what it was meant to be.
    – Kendra
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 20:34
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    @Kendra please don't assume that what you consider junk is everyone's opinion too, at least there was a rollover in the shown posts so everyone had a chance to see something interesting for them. This is not the case anymore.. or maybe being part of a minority (at least in the way of thinking) is now frown upon?
    – Kaddath
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 12:22
47

Two questions:

[...] we're giving [moderators] exclusive access to the featured tag.

I know many employees get diamond mod privileges in order to be able to do their job (which makes sense). Does this mean such employees will still retain the ability to feature and un-feature meta posts through the "user" UI? Or from now on will employees have to ask a CM or resort to back-end fiddling to make such a change if they wanted it? In other words, how "exclusive" is the restriction to elected moderators going to be?


"Hot" on meta can mean vastly different things than it did when we originally rolled out the list feature [...]

What did "Hot" on Meta mean when you originally rolled out the list, in your words? And what does Hot on Meta mean now such that it is causing problems and needs to be removed?

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    "And what does Hot on Meta mean now?" Well now it doesn't exist...
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 19:26
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    Exclusive here means staff are simply not going to be utilizing the feature, not that the feature is actually being restricted away from them. Relevant: "Employees will be posting updates on our blog, or sometimes coordinating with moderators to make use of a featured slot. But, it's going to be totally up to the moderators."
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 22:44
  • @animuson So changes to the system and their accompanying meta posts won't necessarily be featured and therefore "hidden"? That seems like a really poor idea. Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 10:02
  • 1
    @TheLethalCoder It just means the staff will ask a mod to feature it for them, and realistically, the mods would never refuse to feature such a post.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 14:12
  • 4
    @Servy I know several mods who would absolutely refuse. A few mods have already left very vocal comments about how upset they've been with certain actions taken by Tim.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 14:16
  • 3
    @TylerH But will all of them refuse. It only takes one.
    – Servy
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 14:29
  • 2
    I kinda side with @Servy here, Tyler. From what I've seen, it is quite the opposite. Just one (or at max 2) might refuse.
    – Bhargav Rao Mod
    Commented Jul 26, 2019 at 11:39
43

Maybe those Stack Exchange employees wouldn't have panic attacks if they didn't have to keep on cleaning their superiors mess up all the time.

It's very clear that the only people in the SE company who listen to great feedback and criticism here on meta are people that aren't in positions to change anything about them. So what's the use of meta then in the first place if the people who can make those changes don't listen to the community in the first place.

They keep ignoring the community and are then surprised that the community is fed up? What?

40

While I agree the HMP was far from optimal, this isn't the right solution IMHO. There were often posts marked as Hot, while there was nothing interesting about them, essentially diluting the value of the HMP. However I never noticed a post that really need to be read not getting the attention it deserved. So I would love for Tim to show us some examples of important Meta posts that went unnoticed.

Or let me put it like this: Please show us the problem you are supposedly fixing here?

The process that was followed implementing this change doesn't sit well with me. There were sounds from the company that something was going to be done about the backlog of feature requests and other Meta commentary. Now instead of spending time on that you implemented something that:

  • Puts an extra strain on already (highly) overworked moderators.
  • Takes development time away from where you promised priorities would be.
  • Solves no actual problem.
  • Reduces the number of Meta posts exposed to traffic from the main site.
  • Makes it harder for posts that spark a hefty discussion in comments/answers to be exposed to traffic from main.

I'd love to hear from SO how I am wrong, and my points are invalid.

2
36

Will it become more common place to manually feature questions that draw a lot of attention?

In general, I don't think the Hot Meta Posts tends to have very useful content. There are always a few posts there, and usually, they aren't much to look at. However, when we get a post that all but requires participation of the whole community, or when it's a controversial issue, the hot meta posts (usually with vote counts in the hundreds really helping people know it's worth looking at) has drawn in users that have offered very important viewpoints to the discussion.

A couple examples that jump to mind like this are the What does our long term community need? What does our long term community need to feel valued? discussion and the Stack Overflow is undermining community standards by promoting an off-topic question in its newsletter posts, but there were dozens in the last year alone, where people really wanted to be aware of things, and since they were never featured, either the person has to be active on Meta, or they need to be displayed in the Hot Meta Posts sidebar.

The automatic Hot Meta Posts designation took care of that, although it's kind of a sledge hammer for screws at times. I understand it being taken away, but it leaves a gap between things that need to get into the community eye and the mechanism to make that happen. Hence my concern that posts that draw a lot of inherent Meta attention should be tagged as more liberally.

Note that Tim commented that we can flag things for featuring, and if moderators agree, they can feature the item. That's a reasonable mechanism, but it would be good to know how common it will be for such flags to get approved.

6
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    Featuring interesting questions more liberally sounds reasonable to me. It's nice that the community now has a say in what exactly that means.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 18:14
  • 4
    @BaummitAugen I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "now has a say" considering that voting was related to the previous mechanism and voting is inherently a "say" by the community. I think I must be missing something. Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 19:24
  • 6
    @Michael I meant that we now get to set a policy what exactly we want in the side bar, as opposed to the old praxis of having most of the side bar filled by some black box algorithm based on votes and the occasional employee pin. I think we should be able to do better than that basic algorithm based on score, but of course we have yet to see how that'll work out.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 20:09
  • 3
    @BaummitAugen, that's not unreasonable. Like you, I hope that this works better than the algorithm, but I have mild misgivings about the impetus for the change. Thanks for responding. Commented Jul 23, 2019 at 20:34
  • 3
    @BaummitAugen the "black box" algorithm was published by Shog at least 5 years back. It's basically random selection of >=3 and less than 3 days old.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 14:52
  • 4
    @Braiam Ah, thank you for the info, I was not aware of that.
    – Baum mit Augen Mod
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 14:55
35

RIP hot posts...

It was the hot meta posts and moderator flags that bring me to meta, so I'm concerned I'll forget about meta.. On a serious note, I did enjoy the hot meta posts.

The moderator team represents the community...

To be clear, the moderator team do discuss the activities on meta and how we handle flags, so if a post is flagged to be featured, rest assured it will be discussed in the moderator team room.

Our current team has a diverse number of personalities, and we were elected by the community for the community. There are similarities, but more importantly differences between us. These differences facilitate discussion and ensure that the community is well represented.

Rest assured, the moderators have the community's best interest in our minds. We care about the quality of the content of the site and there's a moderator consensus that we want tools implemented for our users before updates in the moderator tools are implemented.

Feel free to flag, and give your feedback. We will endeavour to hear you, understand you, and assist you in any way we can.

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  • 9
    How will all the toxic transgressions against new users be stopped if all the mods are busy bikeshedding meta post featuring? Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 8:09
  • 2
    @AndrasDeak hm sarcasm aside. we have a huge team these days so featuring meta posts won't be a big deal. FWIW I'm hard on new users who are rude to our regulars. We need our regulars. Without them there's no site.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 8:11
  • 20
    What sarcasm? ;) Personally, I think new users rude to regulars are not a problem. Who is a regular will know how things work and will typically be wise enough to ignore or shrug off any attacks with a potential flag. It's not rude new users (or old) that are driving experts and user-moderators away. It's exclusively question quality and the company's attitude towards the whole situation. Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 8:15
  • 3
    "The mod team represents the community" can you show any place where this is officially stated? I always believed that moderators are people we trust to handle problems we flag fairly, but I don't believe they represent me nor any other community member except for themselves. Community assigned them role as judges not representatives. Judge represents rules/law but not the people. We can represent ourselves in meta so we don't really need representatives.
    – Pshemo
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 11:18
  • 11
    @Pshemo we can argue semantics. I don't want to. We're elected by the community to adjudicate on the site's rules and within the expectations of the community. We're entrusted with a lot of power and do so on a platform that people vote on - considering the person's performance on the site and opinions.
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 11:23
  • 2
    Yes, but what you described is still a role of elected judge/policeman, so person responsible for enforcing rules. I am not saying you don't have best interests of community in mind, but still moderators are not elected to represent us in all matters. If I understand correctly moderators should work within limits of rules created by community, so if we nominate them as representatives of whole community then any decision they make - including creating new rule/law - will be considered as community decision, so we would effectively remove any previously set limitations from them.
    – Pshemo
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 12:33
  • 3
    I don't understand exactly how this change is supposed to work differently than the feature that was already in place. If something received enough votes in a short enough time to be bumped to the Hot Meta Posts list, wouldn't it merit featuring anyway? If the decision about whether to feature posts was really representative of what the community would've decided anyway, it's unclear to me how this would differ in any significant way from what the original feature was already doing. Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 15:02
  • @EJoshuaS yep..
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 24, 2019 at 17:08
  • 3
    @Pshemo Yes, here. "As a moderator, your actions now represent the community"
    – Rob Mod
    Commented Aug 5, 2019 at 13:19
32

The truth is that if you wanted constructive back-and-forth feedback then this was one of the most feigned attempts I've ever seen. I would rather have seen your post supplied as an answer when someone inevitably asks "WTF happened to Hot Meta Posts?"

There is no way that your team did not expect the level of backlash received for removing something so ingrained with so many people's daily use of this site. I am sorry to see that you are actively trying to give veterans the boot even though they are probably the reason why this product is successful.

I know that you guys are hard-pressed by investors or whatever to make a happy, fluffy, and welcoming place so that your bean-counters are happy with some metrics so I'm just going to stop acting surprised.

You might be human and you might be a mod but that doesn't mean you're one of us.

1
  • 5
    Ouch! He is human and he is one of us. Commented Jul 26, 2019 at 14:29
26

boo

This will certainly disrupt the burnination of tags on the network, as will it never let questions with see the light.

I used to consistently look at Hot Meta Posts (as in every time a new post showed up) and see if I either agreed with the post (feature-request or discussion) or had the same issue (bug). Now I'll have to go scouring Meta to find these types of posts.

I hope the "for now" means that this will come back soon.

4
  • 1
    Re "...disrupt the burnination of tags on the network, as will it never let questions with bug see the light.": But they are tagged with "burninate-request", not "bug"(?). (Those two tags are mutually exclusive, I presume.) Commented Jul 29, 2019 at 15:42
  • 1
    @PeterMortensen "as will it" can be used the same way as "and it will" in this case.
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Jul 29, 2019 at 15:43
  • FWIW there's been a need to move bug reports off of Meta since, well, forever. It's also a subject I and others have brought up with employees very recently (getting a proper bug tracker/reporting service set up).
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 14:09
  • @TylerH Github has a very nice issue tracking service. They can create an issue-tracking repository.
    – S.S. Anne
    Commented Aug 4, 2019 at 2:31
3

Given Sara's post and considerable thought, I can now propose something of a solution that might actually help things. I expect to be flamed for it and I do not care.

Exempt employee-created meta posts from hot meta posts.

So the employees are afraid of a viral beatdown, and they think removing hot meta posts does something for the problem. In any world I can project where this works, removing only their own works almost as well to that objective.

3
  • 24
    But what would that achieve? Employees would no longer be able to communicate with the users, as no-one would see their posts. Thus changes get put through, someone notices and writes an angry meta post about it, then comes in a comment or answer pointing to the original post and there we are: full circle. The rant gets to hot meta, points to the original, so all we have done is put the employee's post a click further away, and delayed the blowback.
    – Adriaan
    Commented Jul 25, 2019 at 9:33
  • 6
    @Adriaan: That's going to happen even without hot meta posts.
    – Joshua
    Commented Jul 25, 2019 at 13:40
  • 6
    Which just supports my point, that this would not exempt employees from being scrutinised. What is the solution you are proposing supposed to solve instead?
    – Adriaan
    Commented Jul 25, 2019 at 14:25
-27

Not a very long answer, but I am surprised that no one has mentioned the bottom-line:

From a management perspective this seems somewhat insensible if you want to increase page views and time on the site.

From a personal productivity perspective, I appreciate this change because it will prevent me from getting distracted while using the main site for its intended purpose. I will simply do what I came for and leave. Though that means it probably will kill meta for most casual users like me.

3
  • 5
    Your last two points seem contradictory, unless you think killing meta for casual users is a good thing. Commented Jul 25, 2019 at 17:23
  • 2
    @JohnMontgomery clarified to *personal productivity
    – egerardus
    Commented Jul 25, 2019 at 17:29
  • 1
    I also get distracted by HMP, but mostly only when an SE employee announces a new bulldozing change. (MSO is the lump) Commented Jul 30, 2019 at 23:30
-275

I’d like to add some context to the “why” we are doing it. Tim, kindly, wanted to shield me from ire, however, in taking this job I signed up for this. I'd like to come here, own my decision, and deliver this feedback.

Stack Overflow Employees have panic attacks and nightmares when they know they will need to post something to Meta. They are real human beings that are affected by the way people speak to them. This is outside of the CM team, who have been heroes and who I constantly see abused here.

I can’t, with good conscience, force anyone to participate in a venue that causes that type of psychological damage at work. The CMs feel this is something that can be remedied, and I believe them. However, until then, I can’t sleep at night knowing that we are forcing people to participate here as part of their jobs.

We're removing Hot on Meta as I don't want to send new people to a place where people have these experiences. Full stop.

23
  • 16
    Please don't use the comments to attack the poster or 'dunk' on the answer. If you genuinely need clarification on a point raised, please do so in a respectful manner. Incredulity and snark are not constructive.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Jul 29, 2019 at 16:38
  • 94
    When I was an employee I've never had any problem, my posts were mostly well-received, even on controversial questions. At the same time CM posts were tanked routinely, and I even know exactly why (and it's the same reason now).
    – Sklivvz
    Commented Jul 30, 2019 at 18:22
  • 155
    So how do you think hiding the problems away will solve them? The community is upset for a reason, namely that almost all changes that have been made lately are impopular with the community - your customers. Pretending that they aren't popular won't change it. So when some new feature is released and heavily criticized, maybe start asking yourself why it is heavily criticised, rather than focusing on getting rid of the criticism. ->
    – Lundin
    Commented Jul 30, 2019 at 23:12
  • 33
    Sure, nobody likes when you have worked hard on something new and it gets shot down - that's pretty awful. But it suggests that not enough analysis was made early on when the project was evaluated, before the decision to start it was even made.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jul 30, 2019 at 23:13
  • 20
    @Sklivvz There's not much point in commenting that you know the reason for CMs getting a frosty reception if you don't share that reason...
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 3:36
  • 13
    @TylerH Perhaps I was not clear, but: Sara can contact me if she wants to know. I do not want to discuss this stuff publicly.
    – Sklivvz
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 6:45
  • 18
    I posted a well received comment on this answer seeking clarity as to why HMT was removed instead of just stopping to force employees to go there. The comment felt very on-topic and was seeking clarity around the answer posted, it was deleted. As per the advice here I have posted a Meta question asking the same thing. Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 10:37
  • 15
    @Sklivvz Thanks, that wasn't clear at all, given that it was a comment on a public discussion about that very thing. I would have imagined there'd be a better conduit than a random comment on Meta for a former employee to reach out to a current one about something private.
    – TylerH
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 14:08
  • 111
    Any business that ignores its most loyal and passionate customers is going to fail. Very badly.
    – C8H10N4O2
    Commented Jul 31, 2019 at 16:23
  • 22
    @Lundin the public Q&A community is not their customers.
    – OrangeDog
    Commented Sep 30, 2019 at 14:23
  • 42
    Have you considered the underlying reason why users react negatively towards employees' posts? I think it can be summed up with one word: Attitude. When I joined, there were few employees, and those that were here would listen to the community's ideas, and even post rough ideas looking for feedback. Then, over the years, SE got more corporate and the posts took a sharp turn from "what do you guys think about this?" to "this is how we're doing it" and the effect community feedback has seems to have dropped off to nearly nothing. Unless a negative twitter post gets popular, of course. [cont…]
    – Kevin
    Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 17:40
  • 19
    …Stack Overflow grew big and popular because it was a collaboration between staff, moderators, and contributors to do what was best for the community, but then at some point it became just another corporation where profit is paramount and user feedback goes into a black hole where at best we might get a meaningless boilerplate HR response. When the CMs don't want to post something to meta, it's because they know what they've been told to post is more of the same corporate bureaucracy at the cost of contributors and community.
    – Kevin
    Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 17:40
  • 22
    If you really want to repair the relationship between SE, the mods, and the greater community, withdrawing into a shell and cutting off even more transparency and communication is exactly the opposite of what you should be doing. I encourage you to contact Sklivvz as he suggests and see what he has to say, though I expect there to be no surprises there. Otherwise, you might as well admit that SE has become a corporate entity that no longer cares what its users think.
    – Kevin
    Commented Oct 1, 2019 at 17:59
  • 43
    @C8H10N4O2 We're not the customers. We're the product. Commented Oct 2, 2019 at 7:36
  • 14
    Now that Shog and Robert are fired who is the abuser? Your company had abused them, not the community here.
    – Zhigalin
    Commented Jan 24, 2020 at 12:17