-31

I have a suggestion for modifying the answer downvote mechanism.

I searched for a duplicate to this suggestion, and all I could find were mostly posts complaining about (a) receiving downvotes, or (b) casting downvotes on answers costing the user reputation, or (c) condemning the voting mechanism in general.

From the point of view of site curation, I'm of the firm opinion that there aren't enough downvotes on poor-quality answers, and I gather from reading Meta posts that I'm not the only one who thinks that. If the problem is mostly due to reputation-focused users unwilling to part with any reputation points, then this suggestion should improve matters. Of course, it won't help with users who don't downvote because they think downvoting is "mean", but I don't know that there is a solution for that.

Here's the suggestion:

  • At 2K reputation, a user is granted one daily free downvote, provided that they have at least 100 helpful flags on answers only.
  • For each additional 300 helpful flags on answers only, an additional free daily downvote.
  • Free downvotes on answers limited to a maximum of five (5).
  • (Tricky part) Any downvote on an answer to a post where you have posted an answer is not free. If you downvote an answer and subsequently post an answer to the question, you pay the downvote penalty.
  • If a user gets a ban of any kind, free downvotes are disabled for the duration of the ban.

Of course, the exact number of flags required in each step are debatable. I don't think free downvotes should be trivial to acquire, however.

18
  • 4
    Making some of them free won't change the negative stigma that downvotes have currently.
    – Kevin B
    May 9, 2019 at 15:38
  • 21
    The question this raises in my mind is: does this really solve a problem, or does it just add to the confusion around downvotes? In my experience, there are four main types of users: (1) users without the downvote-answers privilege, (2) users who refuse to downvote on principle, (3) users who care about the -1 cost, and (4) users who don't. This proposal only targets that third group, at the expense of a lot of complexity (both in terms of the SO backend and in terms of the inevitable questions on here). So, the question is: would this help more than it hurts? I suspect no.
    – elixenide
    May 9, 2019 at 15:39
  • 1
    It is a 1 reputation loss and they have that there for a reason. There are users who have never cast a downvote at all even on questions where it doesn't cost rep which leads me to believe that some people just don't want to cast downvotes.
    – Joe W
    May 9, 2019 at 15:39
  • 1
    As was mentioned by Ed Cottrell there is a group that doesn't downvote at all and I would guess that group is larger than the group that cares about the rep loss from downvotes.
    – Joe W
    May 9, 2019 at 15:41
  • @EdCottrell: Precisely. There is nothing that will motivate those groups to downvote anyway, so there is no point in trying to include them in a solution. Also, I don't think there is much confusion around downvotes. May 9, 2019 at 15:45
  • 3
    This feels like quite the hefty change to give people between 0 and 5 extra rep a day.... + It will only work with people who flag a lot (1300 flags for 5 free downvotes? Feels like the RoI is minimal here), who I am willing to bet are diligent downvoters, on average.
    – Patrice
    May 9, 2019 at 15:48
  • @Patrice: Naturally the specific numbers are debatable, but I don't think free downvotes should be easy to get. May 9, 2019 at 15:50
  • @MarkBenningfield Regarding confusion: questions about rep and downvoting come up a lot. Many of them are just retreads of, "Why did I lose a point when I downvoted somebody's answer?" (and there are hundreds more deleted posts for that search). In any case, SO has lots of complex rules related to reputation already; it's hard to see how adding more will lead to more (appropriate) downvotes. And for the record, there are plenty of group 4 users who don't care about the -1 and would vote even more if they could.
    – elixenide
    May 9, 2019 at 15:51
  • 1
    How often are answer flags even needed?
    – Kevin B
    May 9, 2019 at 16:11
  • 3
    close flags aren't answer flags, so i don't think that matters (in this case)
    – Kevin B
    May 9, 2019 at 16:12
  • 1
    As the owner of a Marshal badge, this would not persuade me to vote more. I vote as I see fit and the rep loss doesn't both me. And I'm sure I'm not the only one, so I don't think this would cause the kind of impact you would expect May 9, 2019 at 16:12
  • 3
    @KevinB You asked, "How often are answer flags even needed?" The answer is: staggeringly often. See this post: 2018: a year in moderation. The ♦ moderators handled 219,741 answer flags last year, and the community handled another 246,017. That's almost 1,300 per day. The number of users who raise those flags, however, is much smaller, as highlighted by Joe W's answer.
    – elixenide
    May 9, 2019 at 16:19
  • 1
    @KevinB I don't have a stat on that, but most of them. We get a lot of bogus flags ("why did I get a downvote?", stuff like that), but most of the flags are for things like new questions asked in the answers, users promoting their own stuff, etc.
    – elixenide
    May 9, 2019 at 16:22
  • 1
    Right. but a big problem i see with that metric is posts that are flag worthy typically just aren't answers... and those aren't the only answers worthy of downvotes... I don't see what good that metric has with determining who gets how many free downvotes.
    – Kevin B
    May 9, 2019 at 16:23
  • 1
    @KevinB Well, to be clear, I don't think that we should link prolific flagging to free answer downvotes, partly because I don't think we should have free answer downvotes. In other words, I disagree with OP's proposal. I'm not trying to support the argument that lots of helpful flags on answers should unlock free downvotes; I'm just trying to answer the question you asked.
    – elixenide
    May 9, 2019 at 16:25

4 Answers 4

11

Your proposal is way too complicated. We don’t need a Byzantine system for this.

Problem: not enough downvotes on answers because users are too obsessed with reputation, and unwilling to suffer the 1-point penalty.

Solution: stop charging the 1-point penalty for downvoting answers.

Note that this is exactly the solution that was implemented many years back for the related problem of not enough people downvoting questions. It worked exceptionally well, resulting in many more low-quality questions getting downvoted, thus making our content rating system more fair and effective. It also provided a useful signal that could be fed into the automated quality-control mechanisms developed later, including question bans.

There’s no reason for a reputation penalty here at all. Voting irregularities—including targeted, revenge, fraudulent, and tactical voting—can and should be handled by other means, many of which have been introduced to the system over the years, after the initial decision was made to have downvotes involve a reputation penalty.

If voting is what we say it is—a content rating system—then it should be frictionless to rank content in either direction. Otherwise, we risk introducing a skew in the ratings.

As a case-study, consider Meta. Technically, downvotes on answers still cost 1 reputation here as well, but since there is no displayed reputation score on Meta, nobody thinks about it. As a result, I believe that votes are given more freely and fairly on Meta. I don't see this causing any problem. Why should it be different on the main site?

The only argument I've heard so far against making downvotes "free" that I've found remotely persuasive is the one Jeff and Joel discussed on the podcast many years ago, that they were worried about people downvoting for frivolous, non-technical reasons, such as "Java sucks". That passes the smell test for me, but if it were going to be a problem, it would be even more of a problem on questions than on answers. Yet, making downvotes on questions "free" didn't cause a problem, so why should we expect problems from making downvotes on answers free?

There's another argument that gets made about how we want there to be a bit of friction on downvoting because we want people to think twice about it. In other words, only downvote if you're sure. That's fair enough, but I believe that it's inherent. People have a natural aversion to downvoting because they feel it is "unfriendly". Putting aside whether or not that is rational, it's been pretty well proven empirically. Since the friction is already inherent within the notion of downvoting, it doesn't need to be artificially induced with an attendant reputation loss.

5
  • 3
    I agree that the proposal's too complicated, but I think removing the friction is dangerous. Users can get downvote-happy on answers that are difficult or not incredibly obvious, downvoting very good answers out of frustration. I've seen a number of users who went on downvote sprees (on a topic, not on other, particular users) and stopped only because they fell back on the 125-rep threshold. I'd be much less likely to answer certain questions if I knew that my solution to problem X would be downvoted by every user with problem X' who was too lazy to try to adapt the solution.
    – elixenide
    May 9, 2019 at 21:18
  • 2
    The same could be said of users who are upvote-happy, @EdCottrell. I take it on faith this is less of a concern for you? :-) May 9, 2019 at 22:09
  • Fair enough, and yes, it is. :). In all seriousness, though, I think the friction helps users take downvotes a little more seriously; it’s more likely a downvote represents a significant concern than some user’s over-sensitive preferences about formatting or some inconsequential detail. We need downvotes for signaling reasons, but they need to be balanced against the site’s goal of surfacing good answers, not just weighing pros and cons of lots of answers. My $0.02.
    – elixenide
    May 9, 2019 at 22:19
  • I agree completely, but in looking over past questions while preparing this post, I couldn't fine anything to support getting rid of the penalty altogether. Plainly, there is no support for loosening it any, either. If anything, it looks like it's coming down (again) to keeping the status quo vs. getting rid of downvoting altogether. May 9, 2019 at 22:37
  • 3
    There is some support for it, @Mark. See the answer above. :-) Also, this old answer on MSE. The more I think about it, the more I realize how little justification there actually is for making downvotes "cost" rep on answers. I definitely understand the logic and why it was done from the outset, but our little experiment with making downvotes on questions "free" has almost entirely disproven those initial assumptions. Yeah, Ed points out that people might go on downvoting sprees. Sure, but they can do that on questions, too. It's not an actual problem. May 9, 2019 at 22:46
6

How exactly does this solve the problem? At best you get the person to downvote 5 times each day but there are very few people that have enough flags for it to make a difference.

Marshal - 500 helpful flags 2.8K awarded
Deputy - 80 helpful flags 11.8k awarded
Citizen Patrol - raised a flag 195.5K awarded

Looking at the data very few people would get a free vote and even fewer would get more than 2 free votes.

6
  • 1
    Of course the exact numbers are debatable, but I specifically don't think that free downvotes should be easy to get. May 9, 2019 at 15:48
  • @MarkBenningfield But according to the numbers only 6% or so of the people who have bothered to raise a flag have hit the 80 helpful flag mark which also ignores people who are not even flagging.
    – Joe W
    May 9, 2019 at 16:08
  • 1
    That's pretty much my point. We don't want to be handing out free downvotes to users that don't have any interest in site curation anyway. May 9, 2019 at 16:10
  • 2
    @MarkBenningfield Which is also my point, you would be handing this out to a small group of people on the site who it is unlikely to change their behavior because of it. Do you have any evidence that many users with higher flag counts are not downvoting answers because of the reputation loss?
    – Joe W
    May 9, 2019 at 16:14
  • 1
    Well, of course I do, since I have magical access to user's voting records. :) May 9, 2019 at 16:19
  • 2
    @Mark generally those who care about content curation are not those who are afraid of losing 1 rep point for downvoting an answer. There may be exceptions but that point alone would drastically limit the size of the group that would see any benefit from this. Let alone the fact that we don't want users who don't care about content curation curating content. That often leads to mess and confusion created by people who think they are helping but just really don't care.
    – user4639281
    May 9, 2019 at 18:27
3

When you get an upvote you get 10 rep points. Downvoting answers costs 1 rep point (and the fact that it costs a little matters, we have enough revenge downvoting on questions already)

I understand that users who have 130 rep don't want to lose a few points and the right to vote down but it's a cornercase.

Maybe it's just me, but if you use the site in a normal way you have to vote and contribute, which means asking/answering questions & editing posts. Therefore, you should gain reputation more than you lose with the downvotes.

Your suggestion is too complex to comprehend and would also be complex to implement just to save low-reputation downvoters a few points, that they can get back by answering good questions. "high reputation" users (where's the threshold? a few thousand points ?) shouldn't care about losing one point to give their negative (and anonymous) feedback.

And as a bonus, if the poster (under )/a reviewer/a moderator deletes the answer, the downvoter gets back their point anyway, so a well-placed downvote is often free of charge if you wait long enough.

-29

Down votes are really not needed. Specially when your searching for answers with positive feedback.

3
  • 4
    How to find answers with positive feedback. if downvote are not needed? May 9, 2019 at 19:17
  • 6
    Downvotes serve an invaluable signaling function. If I see two posts, both with positive scores, and downvotes are not allowed, then all I know is that 100% of people who bothered to vote for each post thought that post was helpful. Downvotes allow me to see that, no, actually, many more people thought that post B was wrong/harmful/obsolete/etc. This site would not work nearly as well without downvotes; it would be like the many other programming-related sites that I find useless because there's no way to sort the wheat from the chaff.
    – elixenide
    May 9, 2019 at 21:12
  • 3
    Without downvotes, we couldn't tell whether this answer did not receive any attention, or just lacks research effort. With them, we can clearly see it's the latter.
    – E_net4
    May 9, 2019 at 22:40

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