42

Yesterday I failed this audit.

As I read it, it basically is a question about different licensing options. So I had considered it "not about programming" or at least "asking for an external ressource" and tried to flag it accordingly.

Since it is still not obvious for me why this question is on topic, can somebody explain why I'm wrong?

21
  • 17
    26 people decided to upvote the question which is why you failed it. However why they thought it was a good question is another matter.
    – Joe W
    Commented Jan 29, 2019 at 19:02
  • 8
    Wow, that seems like a lot of upvotes for that question given that it's 21 days old.
    – jscs
    Commented Jan 29, 2019 at 19:03
  • 6
    @JoeW I have already seen lots of bad and off topic questions which had upvotes, so that alone doesn't make a question on topic. Although your'e right that we don't know why they voted. Commented Jan 29, 2019 at 19:11
  • 25
    I don't think JoeW was saying that the question is on-topic because of the votes, just that the votes caused it to be selected as an audit. Lots of upvotes means the system thinks it's a good question and therefore fair game for an audit.
    – jscs
    Commented Jan 29, 2019 at 19:14
  • 12
    You're not wrong, the system is broken and it's only going to get more so. Best thing to do for your own sanity is to ditch reviewing.
    – Ian Kemp
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 7:08
  • 9
    meta effect triggered
    – hjpotter92
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 7:37
  • 5
    Here's a trick for not failing review audits: always click the link button to see the "real" post.
    – Sweeper
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 7:52
  • 5
    @Sweeper Or SO could implement them in a non-broken manner...
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 12:15
  • 5
    How is this question off-topic? Isn't github a tool used primarily for programming?
    – Pablo
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 12:44
  • 4
    @Pablo github is a service. I think you are thinking of git, which is a DVCS very popular in certain programming communities.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 13:17
  • 6
    @Braiam No, I'm not confusing git with github. A tool is something that we use to accomplish or help with a task or goal. Github certainly fits that definition.
    – Pablo
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 14:09
  • 4
    @Sweeper Or you could just review posts properly, rather than checking for signs that it's an audit instead of checking for the proper action to take on the post. You might fail an audit on rare occasions where you disagree with an overwhelming majority of other readers of a question, but it's highly unlikely that you'll ever get review banned, as it'll happen so rarely, and in that unlikely event that it happens a moderator would almost certainly reverse it on request. That is, unless you're not reviewing for the purpose of actually improving content, in that case, game away.
    – Servy
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 15:22
  • 5
    Oof. I'm trying my best to not see that "contact us" link in the screenshot which is a real eye sore when the meat of the question is "Could anybody provide any clarity on what exactly these advanced code review tools are"... The question was already answered before it was posted. If this question is posed to Github itself they may even improve the text and prevent future confusion for other people...
    – Gimby
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 16:41
  • 2
    @Lundin Yeah, we've been asking for that for 5 years. Don't hold your breath.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 31, 2019 at 0:04
  • 2
    @double-beep One mods opinion is not the end all be all. So far the top answer disagrees that it is off topic. I will agree that it is a bad audit Commented Jan 31, 2019 at 17:58

2 Answers 2

33

Questions like this have always been controversial.

Some users, me included, think that questions about GitHub features - especially ones like its "advanced code review tools", which are patently programming-related - are explicitly on-topic under the clause in https://stackoverflow.com/help/on-topic permitting a question that "generally covers"...

  • software tools commonly used by programmers; and is
  • a practical, answerable problem that is unique to software development

It certainly seems absurd to me to close a GitHub-related question as being "about general computing hardware and software", which is what has now happened to this one.

Some other users disagree with me.

Some of them think that my side's interpretation of "tools commonly used by programmers" is overbroad - either because they think GitHub isn't programmer-specific enough, or because webapps are not properly defined as "tools".

Yet others think that, even if I'm right by the letter of the rules, questions about using closed-source web applications like GitHub, no matter how programming-related, are inherently problematic because the application may change forever, not only rendering the question obsolete but leaving behind no available version of the software anywhere in the universe to which the old question still applies. Even if they're aware that they're "creatively" interpreting the wording of the closure reasons, they'll close questions about GitHub on those grounds.

Yet others might agree with me about most questions, but argue that this particular question is a question about purchasing and licensing, rather than about using the tool, and that this fact makes it off-topic.

While I see each of those perspectives, on balance none of the above arguments persuade me. It seems to me that this is a narrow, technical, objectively answerable question about the functionality of a tool almost exclusively for use by programmers, the answer to which is of interest almost exclusively to programmers, and that for that reason it should be permitted to exist here, despite the other factors weighing against it. Presumably, 28 users who upvoted the question agreed with me. As such, I've voted to reopen it.

It's common to see these two factions clash. You will find evidence of the community's division on what to do with these questions everywhere. Jeff Atwood agreed with me in 2012, and we've got a tag with some very highly-upvoted questions, but the Meta crowd frequently close-votes such questions when they're linked to from Meta, and the only answer I got at https://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/317602/1709587 came down on the side of declaring questions about GitHub off-topic.

As with some of our other controversies about how to moderate our content, we're probably doomed to forever fight each other over this; we have never developed the means, technical or cultural, to collectively agree on and enforce a standard when the community is fiercely split about what the standard should be. Instead, our defacto "solution" is to leave these policy questions to the judgement of each individual voter, and to occasionally fight close- and reopen-vote wars fuelled by Meta questions like this one, with the final outcome for any given controversial question ultimately depending upon which users with close vote powers happen to see it. Askers of such questions surely walk away with the (justified) impression that our moderation standards are capricious and inconsistently enforced. That sucks, but I don't know how to fix it.

What all that certainly does mean, though, is that a question like this shouldn't be an audit. Since it's now been heavily downvoted due to the Meta effect, it no longer will be, so at least that problem is solved.

21
  • 4
    +1, very thorough and clearly stated. Too bad this answer is unlikely to be as highly viewed as its parent question. And too bad someone appears to have downvoted it, but c'est la vie.
    – Graham
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 13:11
  • 1
    The thing about those close reasons is that they are being used as "not specific to software development". In SU, these questions wouldn't fly, nor in WebApps, for the same reason they wouldn't fly here: it's a costumer support question.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 13:19
  • 7
    @Braiam Isn't any question about a tool or programming language maintained by a for-profit company a "customer support question"? It's one of many vaguely derogatory terms that gets thrown about that I deeply dislike, because it doesn't point to any specific problem or attribute of the question. Why isn't, say, this a "customer support question"?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 13:26
  • Why that question isn't a costumer support question is simple. Because it isn't a direct form of revenue, subject to change without prior warning, at the drop of the hat. It isn't something that you must agree or just GTFO. This github question isn't. If you don't agree that because you downgrade your plan you are loosing benefits that you have taken for granted for using their service, you have no recourse nor workaround. There's nothing on your power to make the code to comply. If the power was with the developer, and only while developing, it would be a question for SO.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 13:31
  • 2
    This is the same reasoning for not accepting questions about payment issues. That's between you and the company, we cannot do anything if the other party changes the terms.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 13:33
  • 2
    @Braiam I don't really have a clue what your long comment is trying to say. What isn't "a direct form of revenue"? What isn't "something that you must agree"? "This github question" isn't what? Why is the point about "no recourse or workaround" relevant to the question at all? You don't have the power "to make the code to comply" with what? And in any case, in what sense do I have more "power" to change the course of early 20th century Chinese history than anything related to GitHub?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 13:39
  • 3
    @Braiam If we don't agree with the license of a library or program, we can't use it. The programmer then has no workaround. So using the same logic than you, should we forbid questions about those?
    – Pablo
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 14:28
  • @Pablo The discussion is interesting, but I think Mark's "Java language features could be customer support" analogy breaks down. Yes, Java is proprietary software, and yes, you have to agree to license agreements to use it, but that's (unfortunately, in my opinion) the nature of many pieces of software today. Java's licenses don't change that it's a programming language, and questions about programming in a programming language are very explicitly on topic. I think an excerpt from Nathaniel Ford's related answer, shows the line: [continued]
    – Graham
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 16:12
  • 5
    @Graham I agree that the distinction you're making is meaningful, but don't think it's relevant to my or Pablo's argument. Braiam is arguing (I think?) that asking what GitHub's "advanced code review" features are is "customer support" and off-topic because you don't have the power to get access to them without agreeing to GitHub's terms. (Or something? It's not very coherent.) Pablo and I are pointing out that that particular rationale could be applied to huge swathes of uncontroversially on-topic content. It seems to me that you're advancing an argument that's entirely orthogonal.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 16:23
  • 4
    @Graham By the way, as a confounding case for you to ponder, consider Apex, a closed-source programming language created by Salesforce that only runs inside Salesforce cloud instances, which cost money. In other words, it's a programming language baked into a web-application. On-topic or off-topic, according to Nathaniel's principles? Sometimes bucketing these things is hard. :)
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 16:28
  • 10
    @Braiam The question isn't asking about whether to downgrade or not. It's asking about what features are lost by downgrading. Would a question about feature differences in Visual Studio Professional vs. Community be off topic? You have no recourse or workaround for this, either, aside from "build your own" or "change products" which applies equally to GitHub. VS is also a source of revenue for MS. I think most of the points your comment raises are red herrings here. (Which I get. It happens to me sometimes. But when it does, we should seek to narrow down our arguments to the relevant points.)
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 16:34
  • 2
    @jpmc26 Comparing GitHub to VB Studio isn't apples to apples, tho. GitHub is also a service, not just software, and this is about terms of service. Questions about using the features would be on topic, but a question about what "Pro" service entails is a constantly moving target. The next time the service changes this question is obsolete.
    – Machavity Mod
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 17:28
  • 5
    @Braiam Bull crap. A purchasing manager who doesn't have any programming background is going to ask his subordinate programmers about what features are needed, which is determined by the software practices in place. The decision necessarily entails knowledge about software development, whether the person signing the check has that knowledge or not. The idea that something is off topic just because a person not actually writing software might have some related interest in the information is beyond inane.
    – jpmc26
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 17:34
  • 1
    Good summary! Personally I think this one falls on the off-topic side of the line, but I'm not going to war over it.
    – jscs
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 19:16
  • 1
    @RobertHarvey (I think mods receive notifications even if they're not involved with the post?), can you weigh in here? You closed and locked the post when it looked like it was going to end up remaining open, and when nobody had posted an answer here arguing for closure. The lock reason notionally says that the lock is "while disputes about its content are being resolved", but this Meta question had already dropped off the radar and no further discourse seems to be happening. Is your intent to just leave it locked "while disputes about its content are being resolved" forever?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Feb 1, 2019 at 18:24
13
  • This is a horrible question for a review, since it is on the border between on-topic and off-topic.

  • It was incorrectly closed as "Questions about general computing hardware and software are off-topic". If it should be closed, which I'm not sure about, it should probably be because it might be a tool recommendation question.

  • GitHub is to be regarded as a version control system, a tool commonly used by programmers. As such, questions about how to use GitHub for the purpose of version control are definitely on-topic.

    General questions regarding the use of the GitHub site/product may or may not be on-topic. Quite hard to say even on case-to-case basis. When there is no clear community consensus it may be best to just leave the post alone.

12
  • 12
    I agree with point 1 and more or less with point 3, but the idea of closing this as a tool recommendation question is about as "creative" an interpretation of the closure reasons as framing GitHub as "general computing software" is. It seems to me that this question is plainly asking for some specific facts about a specified tool, not for a recommendation of which tool to use.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 14:11
  • 4
    (For what it's worth, I'd say that if this should be closed, it should be with a custom close reason, because all of the stock reasons fairly unambiguously do not apply.)
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 14:15
  • 2
    "Github is to be regarded as a version control system" ugh, no. Github is a service built upon git. Please, do not mix both! That's making people that wants others to use git to think about github. Git!=github.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 17:31
  • 5
    @Braiam That could perhaps use some clarity. But people do use GitHub as a version control system, and even the act of solely using it as version control entails certain things that Git does not, like pull requests. It seems overly pedantic to completely deny GitHub is a version control system. Nobody's saying GitHub is not powered by Git.
    – Graham
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 17:46
  • 1
    @Braiam A computer per definition consists of CPU, memory and I/O. A PC is a box built to hold a computer. That's making people that wants to program computers to think about a PC. Computers != PC. Therefore questions about PC programming are off-topic on SO, right?
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 30, 2019 at 18:17
  • 1
    @Lundin Personal Computers are a subset of Computers. They're small enough for each person to have their own. I think you're talking about cases, which can't be programmed, and so would be off-topic. I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make?
    – user310988
    Commented Jan 31, 2019 at 13:08
  • 2
    @Graham You use GitHub for source control in the same way you read a library. By which I mean you use Git, provided by GitHub, like you read books, provided by the library. The library is not a book, and GitHub is not source control. You might think it overly pedantic, but not pointing out these differences is how you end up with Lundin thinking that PC means "computer case". (An example which is a fortuitous coincidence indeed.)
    – user310988
    Commented Jan 31, 2019 at 13:10
  • "computer per definition" please, which definition is this? "An electronic device for storing and processing data, typically in binary form, according to instructions given to it in a variable program" -- Oxford en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/computer None of that definition needs a specific component.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 31, 2019 at 14:42
  • 1
    @Braiam It's the technical definition taught to computer engineers, by other computer engineers, who actually work with computers. Not the English language meaning of the term, written by poets. Feel free to dig through the sources at the bottom of en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer.
    – Lundin
    Commented Jan 31, 2019 at 15:00
  • 1
    Interestingly enough, the question of GitHub being (or not) on-topic on SO was discussed in 2012, and answered by one of the original co-founder of Stack Overflow: meta.stackexchange.com/a/157915/6309. That old thread does not make all GitHub questions valid (as seen in 2014: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/317601/…). But I still consider GitHub questions on Stack Overflow most often as valid questions (I might be biased though: stackoverflow.com/tags/github/topusers)
    – VonC
    Commented Jan 31, 2019 at 16:25
  • @Lundin well, I did.
    – Braiam
    Commented Jan 31, 2019 at 18:19
  • @Braiam No you didn't. Find the source for: "Conventionally, a modern computer consists of at least one processing element, typically a central processing unit (CPU), and some form of memory. "
    – Lundin
    Commented Feb 1, 2019 at 7:23

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .