67

I just received a post ban and the FAQ said I need to improve my current 0 vote posts. What if they can't be improved and simply need to be deleted?

For example: I have this post from over two years ago. How do I indent the first line of a paragraph using HTML inline styling?

Obviously I should have googled a little better before making this post, but what's done is done. At this point How would I "improve" this post? But this raises the bigger question of "Should I improve this post?".

So, should I attempt to "improve" this post in order get it above zero or just delete it altogether? My concern is that if I delete the post I'm losing an opportunity to get myself out of the ban hole.

27
  • 2
    You don't have deleted <0 scored posts?
    – rene
    Aug 31, 2018 at 19:31
  • 2
    I have a -1 post and a -3 post that were deleted. I'm about to undelete them, but I'm trying to figure out how to improve them first because they are...pretty terrible. Aug 31, 2018 at 19:32
  • 38
    As a sidenote, asking for people not to downvote just makes it happen more. Let your writing speak for your effort. If you truly put in the time, it'll get upvotes.
    – fbueckert
    Aug 31, 2018 at 19:41
  • 5
    It is not an very accurate query but this gives you an idea how far you're in the quality ban.
    – rene
    Aug 31, 2018 at 19:43
  • 6
    Do note that deleted questions don't stop counting against you for purposes of the ban. If you absolutely cannot under any circumstances make the post better, you should be able to request disassociation. I'm not 100% sure the process for that, but I think you can request it in a flag...
    – Kendra
    Aug 31, 2018 at 20:06
  • 4
    @BenjaminW. As long as the OP didn't delete the post themselves. If they deleted it, they have to undelete the post before it can be edited. See the FAQ on the over-meta
    – Kendra
    Aug 31, 2018 at 20:07
  • 19
    Good luck on this- It's very encouraging and a great sign to see that you did read the help about the ban and you are taking it seriously and trying to improve. Most of the ban questions we get are complaints, or can be answered by just reading the help.
    – Kendra
    Aug 31, 2018 at 20:08
  • 47
    I'll be honest. The first version of my question was essentially a rant about how arcane and frustrating the rules are lol. But then I gathered myself and decided not to blame the rules, but try to fix my method. Aug 31, 2018 at 20:12
  • 4
    Note that while you can't edit a deleted question, nothing's stopping you from copy-pasting the content and editing it in another window (as a new question, just don't submit), and submitting that as soon as you undelete.
    – Erik A
    Aug 31, 2018 at 20:12
  • 3
    @JarrodWhitley this doesn't get done often enough. Thanks. Best of luck getting unbanned.
    – ryanyuyu
    Aug 31, 2018 at 20:14
  • 10
    I'd recommend using a text editor rather than an ask question window. Less easy to close by accident, and less prone to accidental posting. Aug 31, 2018 at 20:39
  • 44
    Man, it's so refreshing to actually see someone owning up to their "mistakes" for once, instead of the usual flood of "the system and community is wrong" kudos to you.
    – Epodax
    Sep 1, 2018 at 8:23
  • 9
    @Jarrod if I may be honest, the rules sometimes are arcane and unwritten. Doesn't mean they can be foregone, but it surely means that it's sometimes hard for good faith users to follow them all. Thanks for taking it in stride and looking how to adapt to the site :). Hopefully you found some posts to edit and that got you the upvotes needed to push you above the ban threshold
    – Patrice
    Sep 1, 2018 at 13:25
  • 10
    Solution: post a question about it on meta, get lots of upvotes via meta-effect 😏
    – Didier L
    Sep 3, 2018 at 9:59
  • 4
    @DidierL: Be careful, it's a double-edged sword. The meta-effect could also bury you if the questions are really bad... Sep 3, 2018 at 14:09

3 Answers 3

6

After doing a number of tag burninates, I've come to the conclusion the stated advice is incorrect. Most downvoted questions are too far gone to ever be recovered. You got extremely lucky in the meta effect to get that one back to a positive vote.

If you are certain you have a good question, I would advise a different thing: find your highest voted negative question with no answers, and completely overtype it with your new question. Ensure your question is high quality. Then undelete it if it was deleted. If your new question is also bad, this just made things a lot worse.

I expect to get flamed to kingdom come for this. But see, there are no other answers, as most downvoted questions cannot be improved because of their nature. No amount of improvement will make a "recommend a library" question or the "impossible half of an easy/impossible" question good. Typo questions are almost never salvageable either, and there's no point trying to salvage duplicates. Maybe, just maybe a question that needs an answer along the lines of rethink your entire design can be made good, but that is a tremendous skill jump from the state of mind that asked it.

If you want my opinion on whether or not this is good advice, well it isn't. It's a bad idea made the best idea by certain decisions made long ago, and the logical conclusion of "fix your questions" to people facing question bans. I want somebody to prove this actually wrong so I can take it down, but nobody can.

Downvoting is easy. Yet until somebody can post a better answer it is but shooting the messenger.

I will be very much disappointed if a mod comes by and moves comments to chat on this answer. The comment voting is better than no voting and no answer-worthy content has yet appeared.

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    @user202729: Post a better answer!
    – Joshua
    Sep 3, 2018 at 14:35
  • 1
    Well, there is meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/280870/… . Not sure how effective it is, though.
    – user202729
    Sep 3, 2018 at 14:36
  • 2
    @user202729: It isn't anymore. Read the comments on that answer.
    – Joshua
    Sep 3, 2018 at 14:38
  • this seems to be covered in other discussion: Drastic Question Revision (there are also many related questions linked to it)
    – gnat
    Sep 3, 2018 at 14:40
  • 4
    @gnat: I'm well aware of that. It's time for the moderators to sit down and think about the trap they have created.
    – Joshua
    Sep 3, 2018 at 14:44
  • as far as I can tell they already thought about it and built a way out, see No one likes quitting cold turkey "if you're blocked at the time you remove your account and return, you'll be limited to one question per week until you can establish yourself as a contributor to the site..."
    – gnat
    Sep 3, 2018 at 14:49
  • 1
    @gnat: I let this stew for 2 days. I don't think the problem has ever really been addressed and impossible advice is still in the FAQ.
    – Joshua
    Sep 3, 2018 at 14:52
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    We can disagree with your suggestion without having a suggestion of our own. It's not "shooting the messenger" because there is no damage caused by downvoting on Meta. Sep 3, 2018 at 15:05
  • 3
    Here is the FAQ that still tells people to fix questions: meta.stackoverflow.com/a/255584/14768 but most questions can't be fixed.
    – Joshua
    Sep 3, 2018 at 15:29
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    I'm afraid this true. I haven't witnessed any bans, but I have seen plenty examples where somebody has improved their question significantly, but it was already too late. I usually advise to delete this one and post the improved one as a new question instead of trying to get the original back to positive. But once you got a ban, I guess that won't work anymore either. Completely overwriting a question with another one could work, but if anyone notices, they will surely make a comment about it, and the downvoting will continue.
    – GolezTrol
    Sep 3, 2018 at 15:47
  • @HereticMonkey so, we have a catch 22 and we are ok about it, right?
    – Braiam
    Sep 4, 2018 at 15:20
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    @Braiam I'm not sure what you're talking about. If you're talking about users unable to get out of a ban because they are unable to improve their past contributions, I have no suggestion. Which was my only point -- that we can disagree with an answer's suggestion (that a user should wipe out the existing question and ask a new one) by downvoting it (which is standard Meta voting practice). And we don't have to make a suggestion of our own. And "shooting the messenger" is not what the downvoters are doing. They are disagreeing -- no shooting involved... Sep 4, 2018 at 15:25
  • .. which is evident in the upvotes for the other answer, which calls for a new feature, rather than doing something explicitly against recommendations. Sep 4, 2018 at 15:27
  • @HereticMonkey: You haven't a leg to stand on. A proposed feature to fix the problem really ought to be NAA to this question and doesn't help people stuck in it now.
    – Joshua
    Sep 4, 2018 at 15:29
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    If the mods catch a user following the advice in this post, that user will get a talking to. Even if the post has no answer, we don't let users "reuse" questions. It'll be caught and rolled back. That's really just another way to circumvent the question ban.
    – Kendra
    Sep 4, 2018 at 17:29
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I'm afraid Joshua's answer is correct at this moment, and also got the feeling that it's basically impossible to get out of this situation.

As Kendra commented, there is the possibility to request disassociation, but it sounds to me as a cumbersome process both for the user and especially for the mods (although admittedly I never had to do this from either side).

With the code of conduct, and the desired openness to newcomers in mind, I think it would be a good idea if users could request at least once, to have their bans lifted and appeal for a second chance, without requiring them to first improve the existing questions, but instead just letting them start with a clean slate in terms of ban score.

This 'pardon' could be an automated process that checks certain criteria. For instance, posting spam or offensive material would be weighted differently than low quality posts, and depending on what the offence was you may or may not apply for this automated lift.

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  • 1
    they have implemented appeal for a second chance as described in details here - is there anything different from what you suggest?
    – gnat
    Sep 3, 2018 at 17:08
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    How exactly is the code of conduct relevant here? Are we now saying that being "welcoming" involves ignoring repeatedly posting horrible questions? It seems to me that after the first or second question, there should be some responsibility on the part of the "newcomer" to self correct. Unless I'm mistaken here, one doesn't typically get a question ban after one bad question, so I'm a bit at a loss as to why this would be a "second" chance.
    – Comintern
    Sep 3, 2018 at 17:26
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    @jpp - Sorry, my choice of words may not have been clear there. I meant "self correct" in the sense of examining why previous questions were not well received, and not continuing to ask new questions that fall far below community standards.
    – Comintern
    Sep 3, 2018 at 17:54
  • @Comintern I know, I know. It's just that it can be hard to find the right ways when you arrive in a new community, and Stack Overflow can be harsh to those who make mistakes (that's why I mentioned the code of conduct too). I don't mean that we should completely ignore mistakes, but just allow for a one time grace, so if a user thinks they (finally) understood what went wrong, they get another chance.
    – GolezTrol
    Sep 3, 2018 at 19:10
  • 1
    And I agree with "self correcting" as you describe it, and the new questions will have to be good enough not to provoke another ban. But for the user to prove that they are capable of writing proper questions, they will have to be able to ask new questions, since updating the old questions can be an impossible task.
    – GolezTrol
    Sep 3, 2018 at 19:11
  • 1
    @gnat I wasn't aware of that particular process. It's slightly different in the sense that users can request deletion of their account, after which they can create a throttled new account. That's one way of solving this, and perhaps it is the way. If so, maybe you want to provide that as an answer, or even close this question as a duplicate of that one.
    – GolezTrol
    Sep 3, 2018 at 19:17
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    The key is questions. I had a pretty good idea of what the expectations were before my first question. But I guarantee that if I hadn't and had started off by asking a question that was immediately downvoted multiple times and closed, I would make damned sure I knew what my mistake was before repeating it. This isn't an unreasonable expectation - we shouldn't completely ignore mistakes, but at the same time askers should not completely ignore the feedback. There is ample time to figure out how to ask productively before you hit a ban, and info on how to do that is readily available.
    – Comintern
    Sep 3, 2018 at 19:36
  • @Comintern So basically you're saying, screw them, if you hit a ban, you've blown it and there is no chance of ever coming back to the community. Maybe you should post it as an answer to see how much support there is for that solution.
    – GolezTrol
    Sep 4, 2018 at 8:37
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    Users do have ample opportunity to learn before hitting the ban. In fact, they get warnings when they're close to the ban. The thing is, the resources to learn this information is thrown at them from every direction, but we can't force them to read it. The only time most users do is when they're prevented from asking yet another low quality question, via the question ban. Those that actually want to contribute will have already tried to learn this, and put in the effort. Most question banned users don't care; they just want their problem solved.
    – fbueckert
    Sep 4, 2018 at 16:03
-7

Well you could always just give up with this account and create another one I guess...

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  • As ridiculous as this answer sounds, the current process means it may often be the only feasible option. Not recommended, but +1 for realism.
    – jpp
    Sep 5, 2018 at 12:02
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    @domQ I think in my case it was more important for me to understand why my post quality was bad to begin with. Though frustrating the process of getting un-banned has been informative and I now have a better grasp of the type of post this community expects. Had I just started over with a new account, I likely would have learned nothing. Sep 5, 2018 at 13:52
  • Thank you for being bold enough to write the only plausible answer to compete with mine.
    – Joshua
    Sep 5, 2018 at 16:08
  • @JarrodWhitley If I find the answer (on SO) with 1 or 2 google searches then no matter how well-formulated ed. your question is it will get downvoted.. Because people don't like to answer the same question over and over.
    – EpicKip
    Sep 6, 2018 at 10:01

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