2

I know this is a little too early to ask, but this is something I'm wondering about for quite a long time.

Ever since the inclusion project was started, there has been consistent rift among users as to the intent of answering questions here on Stack Overflow. I considered having a separate survey for this, but to have more accurate data, I'm suggesting including this as part of the upcoming 2019 Developer Survey.

Here's the suggested question:

Choose the option that you most agree with:

  • Stack Overflow should mostly be about helping the question author; helping the overall audience of the Internet should take a backseat.
  • Stack Overflow should mostly be about helping the overall audience of the Internet; helping the question author should take a backseat.
  • Stack Overflow should equally strive to help both the question author and the overall audience of the Internet.

I'm asking this because I was told to post here by Tim Post.

Thoughts? Note that I'd prefer that discussion be around solely whether or not this question should be in the Developer Survey, not on the question's contents itself or how you'd respond to it.

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  • 30
    I would say no, since any option other than (2) would mean Stack Overflow would die and Stack HomeworkFlow would be born. Jul 9, 2018 at 16:36
  • 10
    Generally, if you make a question with 1. A is most important, 2. B is most important, 3. A and B are equally important, people generally will pick option 3, because then they don't really need to choose.
    – Erik A
    Jul 9, 2018 at 17:16
  • 1
    @ErikvonAsmuth well, in that case, we could follow the Volkswagen/Nissan model and just swap the numbers of 2&3 before publishing the results. Jul 9, 2018 at 17:41
  • 20
    There are, oh, about 50 thousand users that came here to make the Internet better. They tend to contribute a lot. There are somewhere south of 9 million accounts of users that came here to get a solution to their problem. They are not going to select the same preference by an estimated 1 to 180 ratio. You can guess at the outcome with decent odds. Jul 9, 2018 at 17:41
  • 3
    @HansPassant You do realize that the Developer Survey also asks about users' reputation and experience level, right? We can easily control for that.
    – gparyani
    Jul 9, 2018 at 17:44
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    @ErikvonAsmuth [citation needed] Jul 9, 2018 at 19:15
  • 3
    Are you trying to gauge what people think Stack Overflow's current priority is now or what people think the site's priority should be?
    – BSMP
    Jul 9, 2018 at 19:19
  • Regarding the note at the end: whether a question should be included in the survey very much depends on the content of the question, no? Jul 9, 2018 at 19:20
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    @MartinJames What might kill (/ is busy killing / has killed) Stack Overflow would not be the answers users give to this question, but rather the fact that they believe that to be the answer. If we know users believe the wrong thing, that might help with fighting against that belief (although I'm personally already sure enough of there's a large percentage of users who believe this, and I don't think much will, or maybe can, be done about it, to not really see the point of asking this question). Jul 9, 2018 at 19:21
  • @BSMP Trying to gauge what people think it should be.
    – gparyani
    Jul 9, 2018 at 19:22
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    What would be the purpose of posing such a question? To judge the strength of the insurgent movement trying to hijack SO to turn it into just some other help site? To identify candidates for reprogramming? (On which side?) More generally, is it imagined that the responses to the question would in any way influence StackOverflow's corporate behavior? Jul 9, 2018 at 19:25
  • @Dukeling True, unfortunately (or luckily) my days studying psychology are behind me. I'm very sure I've discussed this with my professor, but can't quickly reproduce a source.
    – Erik A
    Jul 9, 2018 at 19:27
  • Lest "I was told to post here by Tim Post" be misinterpreted, Tim's recommendation appears to have been a response to "I have a suggestion for the upcoming Developer Survey [period]." No endorsement, nor indeed review of any kind, of the actual suggestion should be inferred on Tim's part. Jul 9, 2018 at 20:56
  • @JohnBollinger I guess you didn't see his message right after I oneboxed it.
    – gparyani
    Jul 9, 2018 at 20:58
  • @gparyani, I hadn't, but reviewing that does not change my interpretation of the chat. Which includes, of course, absence of any response on the order of "OMG, I didn't think you were suggesting something like that." Jul 9, 2018 at 21:03

4 Answers 4

7

Let's put out a few points that I think will be relatively uncontroversial to most reading this:

  • It's a good idea to make a conscious effort to ask ourselves what we're doing, why we're doing it, and if that's still relevant to a need people actually have. While some might think gee, that sounds incredibly like common sense!, they'd be correct, but it's easy to forget to ask even the simplest of questions when you're constantly caught-up in dynamics that millions create.

  • Survey questions are hard to write. As a company, we didn't realize how bad we were at asking research questions until we hired folks that had been working in UX/User research for years at companies much bigger than ours. It's a special kind of writing style; attention to detail means avoiding accidental introduction of bias, and that means abandoning anything familiarity encourages, like assumptions.

  • We probably do need to be more diligent about polling users to take the temperature on how things are going. We listen to thousands of users here, getting input from the millions of users that don't come here very often can be hard, surveys are a great way to measure dissonance. If we just listen to people that make a point of making sure we hear them, well, we might think everything is just fine!.

"this is fine" meme

I really want one of those stickers, but more importantly, we may need to be looking at separation of concerns when it comes to the annual survey. It's more about how programmers feel about stuff that isn't Stack Overflow, and it's seriously (quoting an internal source: 'a big honking document') large.

This is tagged so we'll find it when it's time to put the next survey together, and we're also going to consider it when we put out some follow-up surveys to get folks take on how the new code of conduct is going, maybe 6 months after it launches.

In short, your instinct on wanting / needing the signal is spot on. What's hazy is where we get it, and more specifically, how we ask for it. But when folks propose these kinds of questions what's most important is communicating the gist and need for what should be collected, which you've done a pretty good job of doing.

7

Alternatively you could rephrase the question a bit so that rather than asking what people think Stack Overflow should be you ask about their what their perception is of Stack Overflow.

If it turns out that the perception people have is wrong, then steps can be taken to try to change that perception.

3
  • It could be shortened to just this: Stack Overflow answers should -"primarily help the user posting the question" or -"primarily help future visitors to the question"
    – BSMP
    Jul 9, 2018 at 20:52
  • 1
    I'm not sure the current phrasing is in need of a change. The way I interpret it is roughly as "I should answer questions with the goal of ... [helping the overall audience of the Internet; helping the question author should take a backseat]". If it's going to change, it should probably be phrased in terms of "I" ("I answer questions with the goal of ..."), not this whole "Stack Overflow is about ..." business. The whole point of the question is to gather data about Stack Overflow - you shouldn't ask the user what they think this data looks like, because that's just opinion, not fact. Jul 9, 2018 at 21:34
  • I'm not sure the current phrasing is in need of a change. @Dukeling The current phrasing does not make it clear whether it's asking about how things actually work or about how they'd like them to work. Your "I answer questions" phrasing eliminates the word "should", which is good, but you'd need to add a third option of, "I've never answered a question on Stack Overflow".
    – BSMP
    Jul 10, 2018 at 2:40
3

Thoughts?

Neither the question as posed nor anything to substantially the same effect should be included in the developer survey. At best it would be useless, and at worst, even more divisive.

The main problem with it from my perspective is that posing such a "should" question gives the impression of a vote. In that case,

  • The Developer Survey is not the correct vehicle for a vote.
  • It is unclear how the results of a vote should be evaluated:
    • Who is actually eligible to vote?
    • How should level of site participation factor in to voting?
    • etc.
  • Questions and further division would be likely to arise around how fair / unfair, right / wrong, good / bad were the vote and voting rules themselves.
  • It is unclear what action could or should be taken in response to the result, but it is practically inevitable that people would disagree about that, too. In any case, it's hard to believe that many people would accept the result, however interpreted, to bind them to a significant change in behavior.

Even if the question were presented as informational only, various spins of the results would be sure to be used as ammunition by proponents of one, two, or even all three of the proposed options. Nothing would be resolved, but likely more conflict would arise around it.

We don't need metrics on this, we need leadership. The community currently looks to multiple sources for that, including paid staffers, elected moderators, and influential voices from the community. We also have guidance -- far, far more than do most online communities -- from written documents describing our mission and our expectations of participants. To the extent that there is a division, it is reflected in and sustained largely by inconsistency among those sources. Along those lines, however, I think there is reason to hope that the new Code of Conduct and the community discussions around that will establish a rallying point in this area.

It's a shame, though, that this controversy was stirred up under the banner of "inclusiveness," especially to the extent that that is interpreted as "we want to include everybody." No, we don't. Why would we have so much documentation of our expectations, and why would we be drafting a CoC, if we did not want to exclude people who are unwilling to comply?

But I have come dangerously close to veering off into position advocacy, so that's enough thoughts for now. In case it was unclear, however, no, the question should not be included in the developer survey.

3
  • We do not intend to actually change policy based on the responses to that question. Rather, we just want to gauge people's perspective on what they believe the site should be, so that we can improve our guidance.
    – gparyani
    Jul 9, 2018 at 23:01
  • +10 for attention to the dangers of zealotry. Jul 10, 2018 at 4:32
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    @gparyani, One does not need a question on the developer survey to "gauge people's perspective." In fact, such a question is a pretty poor mechanism for that, especially if it's just multiple choice. This sort of thing is precisely what Meta is for. You know, where we are now? Jul 10, 2018 at 13:25
-18

I like what this question tries to do, but as is it's completely 100% pointless.

The blog post that told people to make things more inclusive has basically been ignored because people don't agree that Stack Overflow is for everyone that codes and not just experts. That's not going to change.

At this point Stack Overflow just has an inability to change its culture, and frankly, given the site design, that's its own damn fault.

Asking this question is just saying that you have best people who are very smart. Too little. Too late.

Honestly, the top comment on this question is a joke about students using Stack Overflow. Do you really need to ask the community about this?

Since this is going to come up again:
@MartinTournoij: My problem is that people on Stack Overflow do not draw a line between people who are unskilled and people who are looking for work to be done for them. Your response is a perfect example of that. You can just be bad at coding and be virtually helpless. Most people seem to start out that way.

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  • Which is why this question exists, to see the overall impressions of the community.
    – gparyani
    Jul 9, 2018 at 19:41
  • 1
    @gparyani which doesn't matter because of the site design. No one wants to change the way SO works. They just all want these people to change their minds. Too little too late
    – user5451396
    Jul 9, 2018 at 19:46
  • This question isn't about this at all. I think there is a difference between "being welcoming" and "doing people's work for them". That you seem to bring this up, makes it sound like you think those two things are time same, which is not the case. I agree that Stack Overflow has some work to do to be a bit more welcoming at times (and I have flagged unwelcome-but-not-quite-rude behaviour since the post, which has all been accepted by mods the last time I checked), but being welcoming doesn't doesn't mean people have to start doing work for random strangers on the internet. Jul 9, 2018 at 20:00
  • @MartinTournoij my problem is that people on stack overflow do not draw a line between people who are unskilled and people who are looking for work to be done for them. Your response is a perfect example of that. You can just be bad at coding and be virtually helpless. Most people seem to start out that way.
    – user5451396
    Jul 9, 2018 at 20:04
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    Just now did I see someone attempt to assign a string slice as var=[], var={}, and var=string{} in Go, any of which are blatantly invalid (correct is var := []string{}). Any basic introductory material will tell you this. This is the 481th question from this user. Do you really think that people enjoy answering these sort of questions? Again, I appreciate that SO can be too unwelcoming, but on the other hand, answering questions on Stack Overflow means dealing with a lot of people who can't be bothered to learn even the basics of what they're asking about on their own. Jul 9, 2018 at 20:36
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    This answer seems to be "no, it should not be included on the Developer Survey", followed by a rant vaguely related to the question. Jul 9, 2018 at 20:46
  • 'Honestly, the top comment on this question is a joke about students using Stack Overflow.' oh? Which part of my comment did you misinterpret as a joke? Jul 10, 2018 at 16:56
  • @MartinJames I'm dying, well played!
    – user5451396
    Jul 10, 2018 at 17:07
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    "its own damn fault" - at 9.9m visits/day it looks like Stack Overflow fails quite nicely
    – gnat
    Jul 30, 2018 at 20:53
  • @gnat You know this is about the be nice policy and some criticisms of the site not being inclusive right?
    – user5451396
    Aug 2, 2018 at 14:32
  • well, yeah. My comment is about your answer. Your description of the situation ("damn fault") made me feel like Stack Overflow is about to die. That made me check traffic stats and what I saw over there looked kind of... opposite
    – gnat
    Aug 2, 2018 at 15:36
  • @gnat oh, nice to know my language inspires some sort of action.
    – user5451396
    Aug 2, 2018 at 15:38

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