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Many things have been said in the Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming. It’s Time for That to Change. blog post. I want to examine a particular statement:

Let’s reject the false dichotomy between quality and kindness. Quality matters because it means posts can help more people. But a larger, more diverse community produces better artifacts, not worse ones. We need to stop justifying condescension with the pursuit of quality, and we need better tools and queues to help power users trying to keep quality high.

That might seem like a reasonable paragraph. After all, being "condescending" is hardly necessary for getting rid of bad content. And I think we would all welcome "better tools and queues" for taking out the trash.

But it becomes less reasonable in conjunction with this:

Let’s stop judging users for not knowing things. (We’re a Q&A site!) It makes me sad when someone get downvoted for posting a duplicate.

This is problematic. Not merely because it attempts to pass off the old "someone gets downvoted" canard (we downvote posts, not people, and it is highly discouraging to me that an actual employee for the company that invented this policy cannot tell the difference). But because it sets a very dangerous precedent: it makes the statement that downvotes are unkind.

Voting is the most fundamental tool that we as SO users have for determining the difference between good content and bad content. Without voting, quality doesn't exist. And downvoting is just as important as upvoting for this purpose.

If you're looking through a list of questions to answer, and you see a -3, you know that you don't need to bother looking any further at that question. Don't click on it, don't even read the title. If you're looking for a question worth answering, move along to something else.

This is the primary purpose of downvotes: to act as a signpost to other users as to the quality of the post in question.

This is where the dichotomy between quality and kindness comes in. You cannot declare downvoting of any kind to be a hostile act. Because once you do, you make it difficult for people to erect those quality signposts. And without that, how will people more effectively avoid bad content?

A duplicate can be a bad question in addition to being a duplicate. Maybe it's poorly formatted, worded, or is just a useless restatement of something we already have. To declare that such a downvote is improper, that it is not our right to cast such a vote, is to work against quality in favor of kindness.

This statement causes even more concern:

They get downvoted, but don’t know why

Again, there is the conflation of downvoting the post with downvoting the person. But there's also a fundamental misunderstanding of the purpose of voting.

Votes aren't for the benefit of the post; they're for the benefit of people who read the post later. They direct us to good content and allow us to avoid wasting time with bad content.

Any explanation of why that downvote was cast is essentially irrelevant to that purpose. Why? Because that would be part of the post, and the purpose of downvoting the post is to keep people from reading it. To tell them that reading it is a waste of time and they should go elsewhere.

So such a comment would only be useful for people who are fascinated by downvoted questions... or the person who asked it. And while I certainly understand the impulse to help the OP improve the post, that's ultimately dealer's choice.

Especially since a lot of people cannot handle criticism of any form, polite or unkind.

But sometimes, it's just not appropriate to comment because there's nothing that can be improved. If you've asked a question that can be answered via a cursory examination of easily found documentation, there's no way to fix that. No matter how well-stated that question is, it's still about something you could have found via Google. And is therefore worthy of a downvote.

An explanation would be pointless in such cases. And indeed, I would go so far as to say that it would be extremely difficult to provide an explanation that would be considered "kind". RTFM is generally aggressive, no matter how you phrase it.

To require downvotes to come with explanations, even if they're anonymous, will in no way improve our ability to direct people to quality posts. Indeed, it will hinder it, since some people just won't downvote (since they'd have to compose a comment or select something from a box) when they otherwise would have.

So once again, we see that the dichotomy between quality and kindness is not false; it is genuine in some cases. If you want quality, you cannot declare that downvotes (and close votes for that matter) are unkind under any circumstances.

Are there other circumstances where the "false dichotomy" presented in the blog is a true dichotomy?

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    I get the impression that the specific phrasing was deliberate. We can all wax lyrical about how we downvote posts, not people, but the fact remains that people still perceive downvotes as a slight on them in the sense that we're telling them the content that they write is bad and not worth considering. The conundrum then is how we can reconcile these two facts: one that votes are intended to reflect the quality of a post and not the competence of the person who wrote it, and the other that people see votes differently.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 14:20
  • 94
    @BoltClock: You can't reconcile them. Not without diminishing the ability of people to signal where quality questions are(n't). That's what a dichotomy is: you can't have both. If we want quality, we have to sacrifice some degree of "kindness". Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 14:23
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    @BoltClock perhaps add the part of what downvoting means clearly in the tour and ask questions page? The tour only speaks of upvotes
    – Suraj Rao
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 14:24
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    @BDL: How could the poster of the blog possibly know if the post he saw was downvoted because it was a duplicate or because it was bad? He didn't link to it; he simply said that it was from a new poster. Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 14:25
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    Why we are so opposed to explaining downvotes: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/357436/…
    – Raedwald
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 15:00
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    @BDL: "the whole discussion is about subjective feelings." Discussing subjective feelings is OK, generally speaking. But the blog post is very much aiming that discussion of "subjective feelings" at essential aspects of what makes SO what it is. That's not OK. It's doubly "not OK" when it tries to pretend that it isn't doing that. Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 15:18
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    @Raedwald please don't rehash this discussion, again. Between "not all users see these comments as nice", "users will not want to change, even with comments, so it just costs more time to users downvoting, for no change", "people will post bs justifications", "do we get comments on upvotes too", "it just opens all users up to abuse, or the system up for abuse (people commenting then deleting their comment)"... there are many many reason why this doesn't make sense, or wouldn't necessarily be scalable.
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 15:19
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    If that blog post was here on meta it would have been downvoted into oblivion by now (unless of course Joel were to link to the meta post on his twitfacegram account). It is phrased as the start of a discussion, but presented as an announcement of fact.
    – user4639281
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 16:35
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    According to Jon Ericson (follow the chain of chat replies), the intended meaning blog post is not that downvotes are hostile, but that new users falsely perceive downvotes as hostile. (However, even after that explanation I can't figure out how the blog post could be interpreted the "intended" way, and there seems to be internal disagreement about it.)
    – NobodyNada
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 17:57
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    @ClementCherlin Posts on Meta are not required to be questions, despite the format. Nicol's post is tagged discussion and is a sensible starting point for discussion; it's fine.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:37
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    @BoltClock people still perceive downvotes as a slight on them in the sense that we're telling them the content that they write is bad and not worth considering. Which is a problem with the people that perceive things that way, full stop. This is a site for professional developers. If a professional can't accept the fact that they've produced work that is poor, and then take steps to correct that, then they have no hope of being a successful professional. The world's purpose goes beyond affirming the incompetence of emotionally frail people.
    – J...
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:23
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    @BoltClock You say that with irony, but it is. In the real world, a company can't function with employees who have emotional breakdowns any time an EPR contains some constructive criticism. Professional development is impossible if one is not willing to objectively examine their own competence - you can't improve yourself if you're never made to face your own shortcomings. The alternative is to turn SO into Facebook - nothing but likes, hearts, and smiles pasted onto a heap of garbage.
    – J...
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:39
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    @apaul: Calling that blog post "carefully worded" is an insult to that very concept. And how "constructive" it is has been hotly debated, or haven't you noticed? Indeed, even several SO employees will tell you that it could have been worded better. Commented May 7, 2018 at 23:29
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    @apaul: You can believe that you're being careful when you're carrying around that nitroglycerine. You can "try" to be careful. But if it blows up in your face, your beliefs and your "try" won't put your body back together again. Commented May 7, 2018 at 23:37
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    @apaul: "I'm pointing out that the backlash kinda demonstrates the issue." Never in the history of humanity has the statement "if you're disagreeing with me, that means I'm right" ever won an argument. Even if you actually are right, it does absolutely nothing to convince anyone who doesn't already agree with you. So the only purpose it serves in such a discussion is to make you and those who agree feel better about themselves. What you don't realize is that statements of this form are a big part of where this backlash is coming from. Commented May 7, 2018 at 23:52

9 Answers 9

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Here's an interesting hypothesis on the dichotomy that I think I've come to realize:

Quality creates kindness.

I've come to this realization from thinking about its natural corollary: unkindness comes from a lack of quality.

On SO, pretty much every instance of unkindness to someone comes from a bad question. People commenting that you shouldn't answer bad questions wouldn't happen if the bad question had not been asked. People snarking at a bad question wouldn't happen if the bad question weren't there to be snarked at. If you feel that downvotes and close votes are unkind, well they wouldn't happen if there wasn't a bad question or answer to be downvoted/close voted. And that's not even taking into account the frustration factor.

Now yes, sometimes there are just jerks being jerks; that happens in any large community. But in terms of the broadest sense of "SO is hostile", this comes about because of low quality content.

Methods which prevent low-quality content from being posted, or improve low-quality content before it is seen by the community, will improve kindness.

So I would say that there is no dichotomy here. Quality creates kindness. Our problem with being "welcoming" is that we allow too much low-quality content, which in turn creates unkindness.

Improve quality at the front door, and you improve kindness on the site. Allow low-quality content in the door, and the site becomes unkind. And lower in quality. The two are correlated.

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    And how exactly are you going to do that? Any solution will just shift the problem from the front door to the porch. Also bad answers cause at least as much friction meta.stackexchange.com/questions/309558/… you mentioned it but barely.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 17:34
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    @Oleg: "And how exactly are you going to do that?" I believe at one point there was discussion about using heuristics/AI to discover bad questions before they're asked. Employing such things would help. "bad answers cause at least as much friction" I don't see how one link proves they "cause at least as much friction". Also, I'm not sure I would call that a "bad answer". That the disagreement turned rude is a matter of the participants, not of the community. Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 17:55
  • Even if creating something that will do a decent job is possible(and that's an if, not sure how big) that's never going to prevent anything remotely close to 100% of bad content and you still have a dichotomy with what remains.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 18:02
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    @Oleg: If you remove 50% of bad questions, you've made the site that much nicer. Yes, you still have those other 50% who encounter problems, but you've got a lot more users having positive experiences. They will find the site more welcoming, which was the point. Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 18:05
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    What kind of proof are you looking for? just start commenting on answers you think can be improved and see what kind of responses you will get. Even one link is more proof than what was given by the blog post. I don't understand the distinction you're making between "participants" and "community" isn't the community composed of participants? An important user got banned because he cared about the quality of the content and didn't care about being kind(too much even according to the current rules), how is this not a perfect demonstration of the dichotomy?
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 18:19
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    @Oleg: "An important user got banned because he cared about the quality of the content and didn't care about being kind(too much even according to the current rules), how is this not a perfect demonstration of the dichotomy?" Because you have not demonstrated that Vlad could not have cared just as much about quality without getting rude. I can't tell from that comment thread what he said, but there was clearly a way to prove that the OP was wrong without resorting to being rude/insulting. It's only a dichotomy if it was impossible to argue against the position without being insulting. Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 18:31
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    Some people are not capable of controlling themselves if Vlad managed to get banned for a year he's probably one of those people. It depends where you draw the line: Allow people to be abusive and Vlad would still be here; keep the situation as is and you have a good Q&A site; make people spend 15 minutes being nice to someone who dumped their homework and many people will leave; disallow downvotes and the quality will drop no matter who is here at that point.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 19:06
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    You completely missed all of my points... never mind, this became a typical pointless meta argument ~5 comments ago, I'll go for a run now.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 19:32
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    @Knu: Um... the "silly blog post" in question told us they were doing exactly that. I'm fairly sure writing some text doesn't detract from the code work towards that feature. You can dislike the content of the post, but let's not pretend that its very existence was depriving us of something. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 3:35
  • I'm not so sure about " Quality creates kindness. " I have worked with several people in real life and here on this site who have good skills and produce quality content but are also very, very rude... and in some cases it caused their termination despite the high quality of their work, because the bottom line is that it's about not just the work, but the people doing it that are attached to the work. Finding that balance is what all these discussions should be about, because I agree that we need to pursue quality relentlessly, but we should do so kindly, too.
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:14
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    @TylerH: Yes, jerks exist. You can't stop jerks from signing up since you don't know they're jerks yet. You can only get rid of them once they appear. That would be true for any version of SO. My point is that you achieve the maximum possible kindness by preventing bad questions from being posted at all. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:15
63

First off, thank you for taking the time to write this. I've become very weary these past few weeks seeing folks trade arguments over this problem, as so often the participants treat each other like idiots... It's refreshing to see thoughtful analysis instead of yet more polemics.

I agree with most of what you wrote; indeed, I've written more or less the same thing in the past. The primary value of voting - up and down - is to future readers, whose numbers exceed those of both askers and answerers many times over.

At the same time, having your first and only post on the site downvoted is personal; probably not for the voter, but for the author. Consider: at that moment, the post which has just been voted on reflects their entire body of work on the site; if someone went through and downvoted every post you've ever made here, you'd have a hard time avoiding the feeling that they were targeting you as a person even if they claimed to be voting entirely on the merit of each post; heck, we have automated systems in place to detect that specific scenario and reverse the votes, because it was so off-putting when we allowed it.

The dichotomy between downvoting and quality

Obviously, there's a huge difference for the voter between downvoting a single post and downvoting dozens of posts... But that doesn't necessarily matter to a new author, no matter how much we might wish that it did. A few years back, Jeff Atwood sent me this study of the effects of downvoting on various Internet forums. Read the actual study (PDF) if you get a chance, there are several interesting observations - but for now I'd like to draw attention to these two:

  1. In particular, we find that the post quality significantly drops after a negative evaluation (∆b < 0 at significance level p < 0.05 and effect size r > 0.06).

  2. Contrary to what operant conditioning would predict, we find that negative evaluations encourage users to post more frequently. Comparing the change in frequency of the punished users with that of the rewarded users, we also see that negative evaluations have a greater effect than positive evaluations (p < 10−15, r > 0.18). Moreover, when we examine the users who received no feedback on their posts, we find that they actually slow down. In particular, users who received no feedback write about 15% less frequently, while those who received positive feedback write 20% more frequently than before, and those who received negative feedback write 30% more frequently than before. These effects are also statistically significant, and consistent across all four communities.

Now... Take those with a small grain of salt; the forums being analyzed, the types of content being voted on, and the nature of the relevant voting systems themselves are all different in various ways from that on Stack Overflow. However... We have observed similar behaviors here. In particular, we've known for quite a while that users whose first post is downvoted are almost as likely to return as those whose first post is upvoted.

...With that in mind, it's worth considering that while downvoting a lousy post is a boon to future readers of that post, its effect on the author may be counter-productive to the quality of content on the site overall.

To me, that's a pretty scary thought: we may inadvertently be optimizing for participation by the very authors we thought we were discouraging.

An ideal solution here would separate the utility of downvoting for readers from the effects of downvoting on authors, particularly new authors.

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    An ideal solution here would separate the utility of downvoting for readers from the effects of downvoting on authors, particularly new authors. One way to achieve this would be to show downvotes only a day or so after asking - after the asker has had ample opportunity to fix their post. Because often times, I've noticed, a asker of a bad question gets plenty of comments advising them on what is wrong with their post - it might even be closed, which also advises you on what to fix. But triple-dipping with also having your post downvoted to like -5 (with, lets face it very little chance
    – Magisch
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 21:43
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    to get out of that even if you do fix your post (unless your question becomes awesome, your -6 closed post is just not going to attract the clout to reward editing efforts) often times triggers a defensive response and a "why even bother" reaction. I'm gonna be honest, if I asked a question on SO and it got closed and heavily downvoted, I'd probably not bother fixing it - the mechanism to get reopened & get out of that hole you dug yourself in are a shot in the dark in that case
    – Magisch
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 21:46
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    This is doubly bad for new users - they don't know the culture yet. There is no reason for a newbie to believe that they can salvage their heavily downvoted, heavily criticised post. That is completly leaving out the bandwagon effect - which I have to admit I'm also sometimes guilty of. If I see a post with -4 and 4 close votes, that post is gonna get at best a cursory reading and probably another downvote and/or closevote. Whereas a neutral has a fairer shot. This is happening for me even while I'm aware of the effect and trying to not fall for it - powerful stuff
    – Magisch
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 21:47
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    So we are, in essence, feeding them to the system ban by upholding the quality standards. That seems less than ideal, if we're trying to be more welcoming to new users. While I certainly believe we can do better, I'm not sure what we can do that doesn't compromise upholding that all important quality. Not downvoting because they're new is personal, not just the perception of it anymore. Just walking away has the desired immediate effect, while compromising quality in the long term. It's a thorny issue.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 22:02
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    That study is about comments on articles which require almost no effort, I don't think it's comparable to asking a good question on SO. Looking at the data you gathered voting has a very small impact especially when compared to engagement (Answered, Edited, Commented and Nothing). I'm also not sure what is the goal here if you don't want people whose first post was downvoted(why?) to participate just ban them.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 22:14
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    Anyway I'm glad to see a post that focuses on quality of content by an SO employee instead of feelings of some people who are not even using this site.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 22:24
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    "we may inadvertently be optimizing for participation by the very authors we thought we were discouraging"??! Who votes for the purpose of discouraging an author from participating? Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 7:51
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    Sounds like the described increase in interaction after negative reinforcement is classical "extinguishing" behavior at work. Unfortunately, as far as I know, the only way to handle extinguishing is to finish the job, stay the course, and keep incentives consistent and present. Or, here, keep downvoting someone's posts whenever they're bad until they figure out how to stop writing bad posts, or stop coming. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 12:51
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    Looks like the correlation/causation fallacy. A basic JavaScript question gets downvotes, but also answers or pointers to an answer. A complex question on a niche topic gets crickets. Yes, the author of JS question is more likely to come back, but not because they were downvoted.
    – user6655984
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 14:50
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    Getting a bad reception from SO on the first post doesn't mean that a particular person will suddenly find it impossible to overcome their issue and develop as a programmer. Those that cannot move forward in any direction were never going to be useful in the future anyway. The rest will almost certainly find they have to draw on SO past answers, and will probably become aware of why they got downvoted in the first place. My gut feeling is that this issue only exists because of things like FB where upvotes/downvotes suddenly have a direct link to self-worth.
    – roganjosh
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 15:58
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    "To me, that's a pretty scary thought: we may inadvertently be optimizing for participation by the very authors we thought we were discouraging."-- we shouldn't be discouraging users from posting, we should be discouraging them from posting crap. The question shouldn't be are they more likely to come back, but is their subsequent impact beneficial. Do you have any numbers on that?
    – jmoreno
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 3:23
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    @roganjosh - For the vast majority of Facebook's existence you could only upvote (like) a post. For many hundreds of millions (billions?) of people, that is what they have been spoon fed before their first encounter with SO and I'm going to venture that the idea of complete strangers downvoting their post without any explanation at all is going to come as a shock. That is why many first time users are complaining. It's actually Facebook's fault. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 3:51
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    It's also likely to be a very small effect, @TylerH. What's most surprising is that there isn't a strong contrary effect, as one of the persistent arguments for downvoting is that it serves as a deterrent - of course, we kinda already knew that, hence the years of increasingly complex quality-ban systems.
    – Shog9
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 22:30
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    Thanks for pointing us to that study. It is very important to know that down votes and operant conditioning might not work. I wonder however how applicable that study is to the SE model.
    – Raedwald
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 6:08
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    Do we have an existing SE or SO meta question discussing that study? If Not, perhaps you could create one?
    – Raedwald
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 6:12
39

This answer by Hans Passant explains in a great way why being "mean" is necessary on SO (in other words why quality and kindness is a true dichotomy). I tried to close the question as a duplicate but OP and one other user had a problem with it so I'm reposting most of it here (I removed some things that are not relevant and emphasized).

SO has always been very "mean". Users get summarily banned when they post poorly received questions or answers, almost impossible to regain the right. There's not just thumbs-up voting, downvoting a post into oblivion is considered essential. And SO users themselves didn't hesitate being mean as well, posting such horrible comments as "What have you tried?".

Being mean is good, it chases away the riff-raff that destroys a web site. SO users will have to choose what kind of website they want. Do you want a friendly place where you feel welcome and everybody says "Good morning!" or do you want an answer to your programming question? And no, unfortunately you cannot pick "both".

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  • consider giving a read to another answer there which was posted as a kind of detailed explanation / follow-up to one you referred, "Hans touched on this already - the first and most crucial step toward allowing a site of this size to function is to discourage the sorts of interpersonal connections that would tie it down...."
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 16:16
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    Here's the thing. To me, SO is a "friendly place" as it is. It remains reasonably "friendly" so long as you follow the rules. People are quite helpful when you ask a good question. So I don't see why we can't have "both" within the rules. My point is that the rules still need to exist, as they're what gives us quality. Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 16:38
  • @gnat Some interesting points in that answer as well though he partially disagrees with Hans, he disagrees with the blog post much more. He does support it here so probably Shog sees things differently now.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 17:17
  • @NicolBolas Obviously it depends on how you define things, the way I understand it according to the author of the blog post the current rules are unfriendly.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 17:24
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    Yes. In the blog post that triggered thus, Jay relates a heartwarming annecdote about Jon Skeet being accepted at a Gay Pride parade. Would they have been as accepting if he had turned up in a Nazi t-shirt holding a sign that said "Gas the fags"? To be accepted by a community you must broadly conform to its norms and at least acquiesce to its fundamental principles. Otherwise you will be rejected, perhaps rudely and aggressively.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 17:40
  • Meanness is never good, anywhere, under any circumstances. It is always selfish
    – joel
    Commented May 4 at 23:28
24

SE uses gamification as a fundamental part of its design to achieve its objective. Gamification is just operant conditioning: reward behaviour you wish to encourage, punish behaviour you wish to discourage, and people will adjust their behaviour to be what you want. The rewards are upvotes and badges. The punishments are downvotes and close votes. These are rewards and punishments because that is how people perceive them. The punishments are punishments because they produce (mild) negative emotions: they are fundamentally not "kind". Trying to remove that unkindness from the system is therefore attempting to change a fundamental part of the design of the quality control system of SE. Not something to be taken lightly, given that SE is arguably successful because of the quality control.

Could a gamification have no punishments, just rewards, and so seem "kinder"? I doubt it. With only apparent rewards, I suggest that the mere withholding of a reward can be seen as a punishment.

Can there be quality control without gamification? Yes. But fundamentally, quality control needs a means for labelling and segregating low quality material. So readers can avoid it, and (if we want to be kind) so writers can fix faulty posts. There is no means of hiding that labelling or segregation from the poster (they could view the site anonymously). And any labelling that says "this post is low quality" also says to the poster "you have failed to meet our standards". That is a negative message. It will produce a negative emotion (a mildly negative emotion, in a healthy person), which is "unkind".

To summarize: quality control inevitably produces negative emotions and is thus (mildly) unkind. There is a dichotomy between quality and kindness.

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    Gamification is also used by people who want to score points quickly by answering as many easy questions as possible, fast. People who ask may think people answering 'love them' and 'are there for them'. Not so. People answering easy (frequently bad) questions quick do it just because for them it is a 'snack'. They're like pigeons feeding on breadcrumbs in a public square. And they're mean to each other and other more principled answerers when, e.g., they downvote their competitors and vie for attention. I'm so sick and tired of people wanting to score points quick that I've stopped answering.
    – jchevali
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 21:24
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    I don't agree that there has to be a distinction, but I think fundamentally thinking about how gamification is implemented impacts new users and more importantly impacts how other people, including experienced users, perceive the atmosphere and culture. If it's made you stop answering then that's dysfunctional.
    – Elin
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:33
  • I largely agree with this answer, but it's quite easy to send the message that a post has some problem with it in the context of our site and its rules while being super-dee-duper nice. It's just that the site has conditioned us to leave such niceties by the wayside. We can still get away with it in comments to some extent, but who bothers or remembers to do that, since "thanks" and "welcome" and "hey, %username%, sorry to tell you but ..." etc. are taboo in questions and answers?
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:20
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    @jchevali Yes, SO should be optimizing for the players who do every quest rather than the people who are speed runners.
    – TylerH
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 15:21
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    None other than Jeff Atwood says "I honestly don't believe any system with downvoting and close voting can ever truly be welcoming in any meaningful sense of the word".
    – Raedwald
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 15:16
0

First impressions last.

If you're looking through a list of questions to answer, and you see a -3, you know that you don't need to bother looking any further at that question. Don't click on it, don't even read the title. If you're looking for a question worth answering, move along to something else.

Let's say I'm some random newbie trying Stack* for the first time. I'm excited! After all, isn't Stack* just like a helpdesk where someone will try to solve a problem with you? (I deliberately didn't say for you.) So, I post my first question. Wow! This is so easy! You don't even have to read a How to use this site guide first! It's just that intuitive!

Then the downvotes come flooding in. Why? What did I do wrong? People are never this rude to me on the phone! First abuse, then they hung up on me, now they won't answer my calls! Stack* sucks! I'm never coming back here again!

First impressions last.


This is because the Stack Exchange sites don't set up any expectations outside of SE's reputation as the place to go to get answers. Unfortunately, the opinion expressed by the OP says that it's OK not to help someone because they didn't know all the rules the first time they came here. There are a LOT of rules. Most you discover by accidentally breaking them. Treating a newbie the same as someone who has asked/answered 100 questions is ridiculous. It's the same as expecting the same output from a recent college graduate and someone who's worked for 20 years in their field.

The college graduates are going to ask far more dumb questions than the expert. Neither one should feel that they are being judged as a person because of a single question. Why don't we just treat everyone with respect, assume their question was asked in good faith, that they have a real problem that they can't solve by themselves, and gently guide the inexperienced with the wisdom gained from our own experience? Or were some of us born experts?

Is SE's mission objective some nebulous quality rating, or helping people? If it's helping people, why don't we do more to correct newbies' behaviour rather than chasing them off the site(s)? If we don't do this, we can legitimately be called elitist.


In my opinion, votes should only be used as an indicator of how useful a question is to future visitors with the same question. It should not be an indicator of answerability. In fact, it's often quite the opposite. A question will be upvoted because people think "Wow! That's a good question! I don't know the answer to it, but I'd sure like to find out!" However, people do use it as a proxy for "should I help this person?" The logical conclusion to this is that many of the users who need the most help, and dare I say it, the most kindness, receive the least attention, or negative, unkind attention.

I've been a registered user of Stack Overflow for over six years, and I probably browsed the answers for another two years before signing up. I can still run afoul of SE's rules, despite my experience. I've sometimes felt attacked for asking a question, which seems bizarre for Q&A sites. What hope does a new user have of doing all the right things on their first question?

There are many things that SE and we as users can do to make things better. Blaming newbies for being newbies isn't one of them.

First impressions last.

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    "Is SE's mission objective some nebulous quality rating, or helping people?" SO's mission objective is to create a quality database of useful solutions to programming problems. SO's goal is not to help the person asking the question; it's to help the next person who has that same question. Helping the first person is only useful if it advances our goals. This is why answering poor questions is bad; poor questions don't create useful, easily searchable artifacts because they don't effectively state a problem. Commented May 3, 2018 at 4:13
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    "Neither one should feel that they are being judged as a person because of a single question." Nobody's judging them as a person because of their question. We're judging their question. Commented May 3, 2018 at 4:18
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    @NicolBolas When I ask a question, it's not (primarily) to help the next person, it's to help me. How does a newbie tell the difference between "Your question sucks" and "You suck"? I've actually withheld from contributing on SE sometimes because I've found the answer myself after exhaustive searching and research but it seems that the community doesn't want answers that could help other people. I don't like admitting to this, but there are times that I've felt "Screw you then! If that's how you feel, I'm not going to give you the benefit of my research." That harms the community.
    – CJ Dennis
    Commented May 3, 2018 at 4:50
-7

You're saying the problem is that we need downvotes to know whether or not a question is poor quality and not to waste time viewing it.

SE are saying that downvotes make people feel bad, and they don't want that.

The only solution that appeases both sides is some way to identify a question as 'bad quality' which does not make the person asking feel bad.

Here's one suggestion: We could add a new flag: "New User Needs Help" a question flagged with this is

  1. Suppressed from the list of questions, so people don't 'waste their time' answering bad questions, saving frustration etc..
  2. Moved to a new 'Hand-Holding' review queue.
  3. People who have the patience and time to help new users will review the new queue, and give the new user the welcome and help they deserve.

Possibly this new flag could be applied automagically, when a new users' first post is down-voted etc.

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    The problem with this idea is that you now would need to be able to differentiate between salvageable downvoted questions and unsalvageable ones. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:15
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    You're describing the Triage -> Help & Improvement sequence here. It works incredibly well. (For certain values of "well".) Commented May 1, 2018 at 5:47
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    What about help vampires, or more experienced users who ask bad questions? We can't help everyone - some people simply don't show any desire to improve. Also, new users aren't the only ones who sometimes write bad content. Commented May 21, 2018 at 16:09
-17

Dear new user. Your contribution got downvoted. That doesn't mean we think badly of you. Yes, you demonstrated a significant lack of knowledge, but we know that you are still learning and we in no way hold it against you. Have a nice day - we are looking forward to your next contribution. Who knows, maybe you'll get upvoted next time.

Maybe this would be a demonstration of the false dichotomy of quality and kindness. One can ensure quality (up- and downvote) while being kind (using polite language). Still, even like this I guess that downvotes would still be taken personally. It's just a rejection no matter how it is presented. Even as:

We are so sorry, we could not upvote your contribution more. If you tried a little more, maybe...

I wonder though if this would come across as condescending or as trying too hard.

The bottom line I guess is that Stack Overflow hinges on voting. It's responsible for all the good and the bad things that happen here.

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    "Who knows, maybe you'll get upvoted next time." - Sarcasm? Wit? Humour? Please don't pretend this is polite. Frankly, as a new user I'd find this more offensive than a stream of swearing. This is exactly what the blog post is trying to say is wrong.
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 23:23
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    @jpp It's also true. You could get upvoted next time. Also I'm not advocating any stream of swearing. That leaves me a bit puzzled because if new users don't really care about polite language then I don't know what to improve really. I would rather keep the up and downvoting in place. What would you do? What would motivate you to continue and improve despite of a downvote? Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 6:03
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    @Trilarion and you get to the crux of the problem here. I've yet to see a way to phrase feedback that will not be construed as insulting. I actually think your post here sounds very condescending (I know it wasn't your intent, but it surely can come off this way), but the problem isn't that the comments or explanations are/can be seen as rude. The problem is when your initial stance is "downvoting is rude"..... there's just nothing that can be done to give feedback without being considered insulting.
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 11:52
  • @Trilarion: "if new users don't really care about polite language then I don't know what to improve really." I think the problem is that you called this "polite language" when it is clearly nothing of the kind. Passive-aggressiveness is not politeness. Sarcasm is not politeness. Saying that someone has a "significant lack of knowledge" is not politeness. You either aren't trying to be polite or you don't understand what that means. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 16:37
  • @NicolBolas I think you are wrong when saying that this example is clearly not polite. For example, sarcasm lies very much in the eye of the beholder. Anyway I would like to see you trying to politely explain what a downvote means to a new user. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 18:35
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    @Trilarion: "A downvote means that someone finds that the post was not useful or otherwise not up to our site's quality standards." It's that easy. No questioning of the poster's ability, none of that backhanded "politeness" about "who's knows", etc. Simply a statement of the facts. Politeness is not about using "please" or whatever; it's about the intent of the post. Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 19:17
-38

How about instead of down-voting them and destroying what little rep they have, simply close the question as a duplicate? No need to punish new users with down-votes until they quit the site, when a bit of early encouragement could help them grow into productive members.

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    What about the new users who are offended by dupe-closing then? And how do we indicate that the duplicate is poorly researched? The whole concept of Stack is that good content will bubble up based on votes. I don't automatically downvote dupe questions. But if it's a dupe I can literally google the title of... then yeah, it's poorly researched. I can surely explain it to the user, but in my mind a downvote on the post (not the user, the post) is still warranted.
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 10:54
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    Closing a question and downvoting it aren't mutually exclusive. Dupe questions can still be downvoted.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 11:03
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    @Patrice, If you have a choice of VTC due to not showing code, or VTC as duplicate (many questions fail due to both), which do you choose [especially, as you suggest, dups which are trivial to find]? This answer is badly phrased, but it raises the question of what you do given the choice.
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:01
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    @jpp ideally in such a situation, I would dupe-close, so the OP has an answer. I would also explain to the user our quality standards so they know better in the future. But if a question has both these issues at once, I would likely downvote as well
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:28
  • 1
    @Patrice, That's fine, it's exactly what I might have done too. But I know many people that would rather just close as "no mcve" - which has zero chance of directly helping OP.
    – jpp
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:29
  • 1
    @jpp sure. But according to this answer, me downvoting that hypothetical question is a problem. And this is my issue with the whole thing. A lot of users will never see moderation as anything else than hostile. While I am 100% for a softer tone and a nicer approach, there is a cutoff point where we sacrifice too much for a group of users that just don't want any moderation... That's my worry: that going down this road we'll lose what makes stack stack... For a grumpy group of very vocal users
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:38
  • 1
    @Patrice isn't closing enough of a hint that there is a problem with the question? If not, perhaps the big "this question has been answered here" banner might offer them some hints. Imagine if in a video game level 1 mercilessly perma-deathed your character for a common noob mistake while making little effort to teach you how to overcome this deficiency.
    – shogged
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:45
  • @shogged closing isn't immediate though. if I cast 1 vote and I'm in a tag that isn't very active, how do I signal to users rapidly "this isn't up to our standards"? I wait the potential day(s) it may take to close the question, and in the meantime all users seeing this don't get any hint? I don't see this as any better, tbh. I can downvote and help the user. Nothing stops from doing both. But I still think downvote has its place there
    – Patrice
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 12:47
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    I kind of feel sad when an answer aimed at offering a potential way to diminish perceived unkindness then completely destroys itself by using a derogatory term such as "noobs". This is not a gaming environment where it is pretty much expected behavior that people treat you like garbage because they've wasted more hours (or money) on something than you and thus think they are above you. Call someone or even a group of people "noobs" and it is very much unfriendly.
    – Gimby
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:26
  • 2
    @Gimby apologies, in my culture "noobs" is not derogatory, it's actually considered a friendly or jovial term. I will edit the question. For my own future reference, what is your culture that finds this word offensive?
    – shogged
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:29
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    @shogged: Bad duplicate posts exist too. You're effectively saying that we shouldn't be able to downvote a bad post. Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 13:35
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    You are confusing "bad post" with "duplicate". They are different: a post can be good and a duplicate, or bad and not a duplicate. Some duplicates are worth having, which is why duplicates are not deleted. Some duplicates are not worth having, which is why they are downvoted.
    – Raedwald
    Commented Apr 30, 2018 at 14:03
  • 3
    @shogged no harm done, downvote removed. Still can't upvote it though, downvotes are not a punishment. People still punish themselves, the goal is to make it easier for us to help people to stop doing that.
    – Gimby
    Commented May 1, 2018 at 9:33
  • 1
    Finding duplicates is not incentivised. There is no rep for that so nobody does it. Answering duplicate question is incentivised - you still get rep no matter how many duplicates there are - just look at the SQL tag. meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/252756/…
    – Ben
    Commented May 21, 2018 at 13:30
  • As others have indicated, downvotes are not a punishment, just a reflection of the fact that the community believes that the content isn't worth reading. We downvote content, not users. The fact that you lose rep for downvotes is mostly an incentive to improve the question (or, even better, to formulate the question well from the outset). Commented May 21, 2018 at 16:02
-186

This idea is completely wrong. Most people who ask difficult to answer questions for whatever reason are coming here with good intentions, and by your own description are being downvoted so that no one else, someone with perhaps an ounce of empathy to the struggle they are having, might possibly see their post and attempt to help.

Maybe it is a poorly formed question. Maybe it is too specific. Maybe it is difficult to answer without further clarification. It just takes a little assistance to get the question to a better spot. But this idea says, "hey don't worry about the people who need the most help, they aren't worth the effort". And that is completely wrong.

Quality is about what is exposed to the outside, essentially what's searchable via search engines, e.g. Google. So even if a question is too specific or needs a reproducible example, the person asking it still needs help; the right choice isn't to shut the question down entirely because it's not high quality and will damage the site. Help them first, extract the most value out of it that we can, and then decide how to present it to the outside world.

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    I thought the goal of SO is to create a quality Q&A site if instead we are supposed to help people who invested zero effort and ask crappy questions this should be made clear. I'm definitely out if this is the case. This is something I sometimes enjoy doing but forums are a much better platform for it, no need for SO.
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 20:24
  • 41
    It's about people who want and are willing to learn the rules of our community. Making it about people who have no interest in doing that instead of the people who are part of this community? What gives???
    – Oleg
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 20:27
  • 129
    One of the founding principles of Stack Overflow was not having extended, personalized help conversations with everybody. This is a good thing. It is one of the reasons why the site succeeded. If people want their help in the form of a conversation, they can have that conversation somewhere else. Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 20:37
  • 119
    @NickLarsen: "But this idea says, "hey don't worry about the people who need the most help, they aren't worth the effort". And that is total garbage." I'm not sure how I'm supposed to react to you deciding for me what I mean. However, if you want to get technical, I don't care who "needs the most help", because that's not what the site is for! We are not here to help the asker of the question; we are here to create an artifact that will help the next person who has that question. Bad questions don't do that, and it's sad that a community moderator doesn't agree with this site's goals. Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 20:49
  • 98
    @NickLarsen: "Help them first, extract the most value out of it that we can and then decide how to present it to the outside world." If you want to change the very goals of the site, that's fine. But if Stack Overflow is to become a public help desk rather than a site to create artifacts that help people other than the person asking, then Stack Exchange as a company needs to explicitly declare that this is changing, so that those of us who are under the delusion that we're still about the latter can leave. Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 20:51
  • 77
    @NickLarsen If "that should be a side effect, not the goal", why is the second sentence of the tour "With your help, we're working together to build a library of detailed answers to every question about programming"?
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 21:03
  • 87
    If this is truly SE's mindset regarding their site, then I'm sorry, but I'm out. I subscribed to Jeff's credo that quality is what matters, and that boosting that signal to noise came before all else. If users matter more than the quality contributions, I want absolutely nothing at all to do with it. SE is no better than a forum it was created to replace, then.
    – fbueckert
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 21:40
  • 33
    @NickLarsen Where did you get the idea that SO should be about people first? As per stated goal, the Q/A is the purpose and how that specific asker fares is ranked like a distant fifth somewhere behind searchability and general usefulness and the state of mind of the volunteers who are making the Q/A. Focusing on people is not what made SO successful, and you're getting pushback because people really like their accurate and easy to search resource and not a hugbox for people who can't debug.
    – Magisch
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 21:54
  • 34
    There are sites to get your help on where you can learn to debug and code in a low pressure environment with friendly people who will help you and mentor you - SO is not that place. SO is a deeply adversarial site which first and foremost strives to create excellence in Q/A, and in the process of making that a lot of egos will take a hit. I had to learn this early on too, as every contributor has - emotions don't really count here, and that's good, because my code doesn't care how I felt writing it either, it works or doesn't
    – Magisch
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 21:58
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    myself I am in it mostly for selfish reasons: I want Stack Overflow to keep helping people like me - those who get their answers here after dumping their question into google search box. SO did it fairly well so far and I wouldn't want to lose that help. I don't want my search results polluted with useless solutions to homework dumps. I don't want it to be flooded with thousand answers to single simple question about NPE / NRE. And I do what I can to keep SO content the way it is helpful to me...
    – gnat
    Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 22:07
  • 105
    Hey Nick, thanks for letting the community of volunteers who've been moderating the site for years know just how little effort it is to clean up the thousands of questions SO receives per day. Who knew it was so simple? Just give everyone one-on-one personalized support! Why didn't we think of that? Well you better get to it since it doesn't seem like you're convincing anyone else. But don't worry, all those questions need is a little assistance. Commented Apr 28, 2018 at 22:18
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    Umm.. while we are providing a 'little help' for the 1000's of bad questions from 'newbies', (who may, or may not, be actual new users who would go on to be useful site members), who is going to answer the good questions? Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 15:32
  • 39
    @NickLarsen I, too, don't think there is a dichotomy between quality and kindness. I'm also a firm believer in improving and rescuing salvageable questions, as a quick perusal of my Meta contributions should confirm. However, denying that the primary goal of Stack Overflow is creating "an artifact that will help the next person who has [a] question" (or a set of Q&As with long-term value, or "a library of detailed answers to every question about programming", etc.) goes against all I have ever known about Stack Overflow. Sorry if this sounds hyperbolic, but it really isn't.
    – duplode
    Commented Apr 29, 2018 at 16:01
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    I find it hilarious that my highly-voted comment pointing out that "this is total garbage" from a staffer is against the rules the site just put out has been quietly deleted. Commented May 4, 2018 at 11:17

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