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I was browsing through the careers section and searched some local jobs (in Bangalore). It seems, that without a 4-8 years of experience, I won't be able to land a programming job. Every single firm is asking for an experienced person!

Is it possible to start a careers section for inexperienced programmers?

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    Possibly because most employers are looking for experienced people instead of noobies?
    – Oded
    Dec 5, 2016 at 17:00
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    @Oded Or at least the ones that go to SO to advertise their positions. Look around at a college career fair and you'll find different results.
    – Servy
    Dec 5, 2016 at 17:23
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    TBH I find some companies asking for crazy experience, like one asking for 8 years experience in node.js...
    – Sammaye
    Dec 6, 2016 at 10:31
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    It really is disappointing to see that an entry-level job requires three languages, five frameworks, and three years of experience, and a junior position requires 50% more of each. This is what leads companies to run on disposable interns who never have "enough experience" to merit a full job. Dec 6, 2016 at 10:49
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    @Sammaye because putting "must be Ryan Dahl" would be discrimination.
    – OrangeDog
    Dec 6, 2016 at 10:55
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    If you are in Bangalore and if you think you are good, do hit me up. I might be able to find you something.
    – avismara
    Dec 7, 2016 at 9:14
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    Well I don't know about the US but in the UK its legal to ask for a number of years experience. You can ask for demonstrable skills in X, Y, Z. However to ask for a specific number of years experience is considered age discrimination. Dec 7, 2016 at 9:24
  • @avismara will do that soon. Dec 7, 2016 at 9:31
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    You must mean illegal, @Ashley. And it's not illegal in the US. Although the law has some protections against age discrimination, it only becomes a problem if the policies have a "disproportionately adverse impact" on older workers. So not considering people with over 20 years of exp is a problem. There is hardly any protection for younger workers, though. The federal ADEA only forbids age discrimination for employees over 40. And, employers can affirmatively defend against charges of discrimination by arguing that their requirements are based on reasonable factors other than age. Dec 7, 2016 at 9:51
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    @CodyGray Sure did, curse my lack of proof reading! Dec 7, 2016 at 9:52
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    Thanks for pointing this out. Agree this is an issue, and getting more (paid) internship & co-op positions on our site is something that the Marketing team is actively working on for the coming year. Can't promise you'll see a change right away, but I'll update this post once we have more information.
    – Donna
    Dec 8, 2016 at 19:12
  • I haven't seen Stackoverflow companies ever responds, so why why do you bother LOL. Sep 2, 2019 at 10:14
  • I removed the [status-review] tag from this post because the Jobs product no longer exists.
    – Slate StaffMod
    Jan 24, 2023 at 20:52

7 Answers 7

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It is something you learn in the beginning of your career (everyone has)

Entry job requires 5-400 years experience. But in order to get the entry job you need to have had an entry job, but that requires 5-400 years experience and the loop goes around.

For many jobs (in my 400 years of experience) as long as you can show you can do what they ask and show that you have the "experience" without the job experience, then you might be good :-)

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    "Entry job requires 5-400 years experience" yup, can confirm. I'm on my 63 loop, hopping to rack some more years.
    – Braiam
    Dec 5, 2016 at 19:19
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    @Neal, Thanks for the motivation, will work upon it. Dec 6, 2016 at 7:42
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    If we would do it for 1$ per hour, I am sure it would be ok with only 10 year experience. Dec 6, 2016 at 10:25
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    We are stuck in the Paradox. I wish I had Internship the moment when I was in my mothers womb.
    – Enzokie
    Dec 6, 2016 at 10:25
  • @Enzokie take my respect! Dec 6, 2016 at 16:57
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    @Enzokie Maybe did have such an internship. Ask your mother. Put it on your CV.
    – Marco13
    Dec 7, 2016 at 9:09
  • While this is an issue, it seems like you basically say "all jobs require this much experience", and while it is true that a lot of jobs do this, I think this question / the problem / the situation is that it <s>is</s> might be worse on SO .
    – Nanne
    Dec 7, 2016 at 11:17
  • @Nanne Nailed it! Dec 7, 2016 at 15:27
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    @Nanne How is it a problem? SO exists as a tool to help experienced, highly qualified, programmers to find jobs. It doesn't exist to help a new developer that's not particularly experienced or exceptional find jobs. It doesn't go out of its way to explicitly exclude such people, or such postings, but the site doesn't really cater to them. That's perfectly fine. Just because people aren't looking for entry level positions through SO doesn't mean nobody is looking for entry level positions. It's a field full of openings for entry level positions all over the world.
    – Servy
    Dec 7, 2016 at 16:46
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    @Servy SO's primary purpose is to answer questions that developers have, and most aren't veterans.... Dec 7, 2016 at 17:08
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    @Feathercrown And the kinds of users asking those kinds of questions, or only focusing on answering the super easy questions that don't require much expertise on the subject aren't the ones using SO Careers to find jobs, or are they the kinds of people that the people posting positions appear to be seeking out through SO Careers, rather, it's the subject matter experts that have a lot of knowledge and experience that tend to be the ones using it.
    – Servy
    Dec 7, 2016 at 17:11
  • @Servy I agree with you, I think. The 'problem' I tried to refer to, was the problem as stated/percieved by the OP. As you say, this might not be a problem at all, but I didn't want to even comment on that. What I tried to comment on that while this answer might hold truth, it is not an answer to the question. Part of your comment would be an excelent answer in my eyes (I think, everything except for the first sentence :) )
    – Nanne
    Dec 8, 2016 at 9:49
  • @Nanne I consider it largely just a summary of Jon's answer, else I would post it as an answer. I agree that this post isn't an answer to the question.
    – Servy
    Dec 8, 2016 at 14:08
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Because SO jobs tends to hit a different segment of the market.

Basic entry level jobs tend to be local, plentiful, and low in requirements. There's no need to advertise them on SO, because you can just go to a local college job fair and sweep up a bunch of capable, enthusiastic, young graduates. You're not paying them enough that you need to overly worry about incredible quality - and without experience, it's hard to discriminate between quality levels anyway. The bad ones will weed themselves out over time, the good ones you promote.

Internships and entry level jobs don't need to be advertised widely, and equally people aren't likely to travel across the country for them: SO is the wrong place to advertise them.

SO focuses on higher level jobs: or rather, companies who use SO are those looking for a different type of candidate. They're the kind of job where you're looking for "the right person" not just "A guy who can program". Ones where you want to invest time and money in finding someone with specific skills and experience.

If you want an entry level job, go to jobs fairs at your college or similar, or go direct to large companies (large companies tend to take on far more entry level candidates than smaller ones)

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    Yes good point. Also it's not only about traditional job experience. I've put in many more free hours pursuing programming as a hobby. You can absolutely get a job on SO without work experience (or without a lot), but you have to prove you're good in some way. I was recently hired via SO. A lot of my experience is freelance which looks a lot better on SO along with a portfolio than it does as an entry on a resume (self-employed often gets associated with simply unemployed). Dec 6, 2016 at 23:16
  • Much this. Specific "markets" are used for specific jobs, and you would try to find a an experienced person on SO
    – Nanne
    Dec 7, 2016 at 11:15
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    @Jon Story, if you are ever advising a coding enthusiastic Bangalorean, don't ever ever advise the to work for large companies. Entry level positions offered here to an average engineer (even by Google) are deplorable. You will be on "bench" half the time and the other half, you will be working on such mundane maintenance projects that you will question your very existence. Small to mid-sized companies are a way to go here in Bangalore.
    – avismara
    Dec 7, 2016 at 14:06
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I've been a hiring manager. When I put a job posting out there, I'm letting myself in for a vast amount of mind-numbing work sorting through responses trying to find the right candidates.

So it's important to me as a hiring mgr to get people to filter themselves, and decide, on their own, not to inquire if they're not qualified.

That's why job postings say things like "You must be able to come to work in person at Somecity, Somestate, Somecountry five days a week. We cannot offer relocation assistance. We cannot sponsor you for a visa. We do not consider unsolicited inquiries from employment agencies."

It's also why postings say such things as "4 years of experience required." If I put a posting out there saying "no industry experience required" I'd be swamped with inquiries, and I'd have no reasonable way to screen you all.

This is a sad reality. It means overlooking a lot of really talented people.

Writing a really good job description helps a lot with the screening overload, and thus using "4 years of experience" as a criterion is a bit lazy. I'd much rather write "you must demonstrate a track record doing something interesting with MySQL, Oracle, or some other table server. Explain this in your cover letter" than "4 years experience required." This gets to the skill, rather than the accumulated time-on-the-job, needed.

But I still get swamped.

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    This is an interesting perspective I hadn't really considered before, but it makes a lot of sense now that you mention it. It makes me wonder if I should stop filtering myself out as much as I do. I'm just a couple of years into my first official programming job, but I've done it unofficially for years before this position. There's a lot of stuff I don't bother applying for because I assume my resume won't even get a decent look if I don't meet the requirements in the job posting. Maybe I should just try to make my cover letter as non-mind-numbing as possible and go for it anyway. Dec 7, 2016 at 20:49
  • Doesn't this lead to a meta fight where people know that not actually 4 years are required and still apply destroying the intention of the requirement. And then you put up even more years of required experience in the hope that less people apply, but over time people will catch onto it. Just a thought
    – Hakaishin
    Jan 7, 2019 at 15:49
  • Yes of course. Putting in a sloppy numerical requirement like 4 years' experience can yield that kind of mind game. But, the tasks of finding a job and finding a colleague already have lots of mind games in them. Who needs another? That's why it's better to explain what you really need rather than throw in arbitrary numbers.
    – O. Jones
    Jan 7, 2019 at 17:08
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The reason, to my eyes, is twofold. First, human nature: humans love to be reassured; you know, being "on the safe side". “Experience” brings that false sense; HR people and management are content.

Is it possible to start a careers section for inexperienced programmers?

It's certainly technically possible. I don't think it'd be a good idea as that would be validating a false premise (false to me, obviously): experience is only gained in the workplace and only experienced people make good devs. Generally speaking, it's probably true, but there are many exceptions.

My point is that experience brings no certainty, only a possibility, only a trend. The people who write the job descriptions still have to realize that, and have the possibility and liberty to act on that realization. I guess someone has to be accountable when the new hire turns out to not be up to the expectations: "but he has x years of experience" is a perfect excuse in such cases.

Second reason: the people who write the job descriptions are not always technical people who actually know what they are writing about. Hence the "8 years' experience in nodeJs" as cited by someone, or requirements about 10 years experience with Spring boot or AngularJs. Or, even more ludicrous from an actual contact I've had, 5 years of experience with a specific patch version of extJs that had probably been the active version for only a few weeks or months.

If I were to hire someone, I would look at a few things:

  • salary demands: do they fit the budget or compensation package that I have/can afford? If not, can we work something out?
  • what has that person already done? I don't care whether it's in the workplace, in their own company or in their free time, for instance on an open source project. In all cases, it is experience; who ever said that experience can only be gained in the workplace as an employee in an n-people team?
  • familiarity with general software engineering concepts instead of specific tools, frameworks and languages.
  • actual code written and general attitude towards code, which is why I think the developer story is a great idea.
  • general attitude towards learning new things, either by themselves or by being trained by a co-worker.
  • general attitude towards documentation: do they write it or and do they use it?

And I'd try to gauge their motivation for the job even though I'm perfectly aware that I'm fallible at that task. That's it.

I wouldn't look at:

  • diplomas, degrees or certifications (especially not certifications), even though I have a PhD and it has been a major pain to get (really hard years getting it while working full-time, worst years of my life).
  • prior experience with a specific tool, framework or language.
  • how confident they look or sound during the interview.
  • anything intangible: I don't trust subjective judgment.

I think one cannot correctly judge other skills that are considered useful or nice to have in the workplace: too much subjectivity and prejudice, and too many preconceptions.

All this digression, which barely scratches the subject of what's wrong in IT recruitment, leads me to this: the only people who can give you an explanation of what companies ask for are HR people, managers, team leaders, etc. who write those job descriptions as of course, they were born directly to X years of experience. I guess.

My advice: if possible, join open source projects soon. Learn, rack up some years, and become good by the time you hit the job market.

Last words, the only upside is that you can later use the situation to your advantage. Moreover, people who now no longer have to go through that "experience demands" loop have all started somewhere with zero job experience. Ergo, it's possible to start: we all did :-)

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    agreed to all aspects that you have pointed. In today's job market, degree & other stuff are useless to be honest. I'll keep in mind the infos. Thanks. Dec 6, 2016 at 16:52
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I believe I'll be able to answer this given that I have hired through SO and I work in Bangalore.

Here, it isn't that easy to find good engineers (at least) in Bangalore for positions that require niche expertise. Companies turn to SO because this is where we believe such experts are. Also, given that there are SO MANY engineers around, @SandeepRoy can testify for this fact, we don't need to pay job forums to find people with no experience. To top it all, hiring through Stack Overflow Careers is very expensive for companies based out here.

That said, the challenge still exists -- finding good inexperienced engineers. Only about 7% are employable here, thanks to our education system. But never have I seen a situation where a very good graduate finds himself out of a job. Some startup or the other will find these talents through Angellist (which happens to be free for us) and hire them. They do not care about your degree or grade. As long as you are good, you are hired.

Even if SO were to start a careers section for inexperienced programmers, we would be unwilling to post jobs there, given that students/graduates will simply not know about SO. It is sad and appalling that only about 1 in 100 students whom I have come across know about such a site and those who use it, even less so.

What can YOU do? Go on Angellist. Ask your seniors. Ask ME. I am sure there are plenty of companies looking for talent. Not to blow my own trumpet, but I found a job this way even though my grades weren't that great.

Remember, we are not short of engineers, we are short of talented engineers.

EDIT

Just discussed about this problem with my co-worker as well. He also added that you should be participating in hackathons and contributing to open source a lot to get visibility. I agree.

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  • thanks captain! will surely work upon your advice. Dec 7, 2016 at 15:30
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    Why do students in Bangalore not know about SO? If they use Google to look for solutions to their technical questions, an SO page will usually be among the top five results.
    – merlin2011
    Dec 7, 2016 at 20:53
  • Not a lot of students use internet to solve their technical questions. Also, the curriculum doesn't require you to do a lot of projects. It's only theory and books are more than enough for it.
    – avismara
    Dec 8, 2016 at 6:40
  • Your answer is great.My seniors are active in SO and so if they find I have an active careers sections in SO then they will surely think that I am looking for job change. I guess applying to companies in bangalore with name(springlearner) will never shortlist my profile. How do I deal with it? Dec 13, 2016 at 12:57
  • Your name is the last thing we care about. The last. When we do your profile analysis, if we believe that you are worth our interview time, we will shortlist you. For instance, a mere glance at the quality of answers that you have given on SO will make you an ideal interview candidate. If I was hiring Java devs, I would shortlist you and let our rigorous interview process decide the rest.
    – avismara
    Dec 13, 2016 at 19:06
  • I am from Bangalore and I downvoted. There is no need to bash education system unless you prove why your company is "so innovative" in such "wrong market" given that Bangalore is world's second fastest growing economy. Reference: huffingtonpost.in/2015/07/29/… Also, unnecessarily bringing location into picture just to bash the city isn't a great idea, I believe. Lastly, many enthusiastic people go out and learn on their own even if education is poor. ("many" as in correlation) Sep 14, 2019 at 5:28
  • I am right now working in Academic Research field (Teaching Methodologies, to be specific). I also had to travel to Europe's leading colleges to find why their systems work and why ours doesn’t. had to collect a lot of data on academics. I am right now funding a research project using this data. All this is to come up with alternative-unorthodox methods of teaching and a research time-frame of about 15-20 years. Trust me when I say this, I know what I am talking about.
    – avismara
    Sep 16, 2019 at 3:21
  • Bangalore is my city. I grew up here and I have a lot of love for it. My earlier statements weren’t statements of some reckless bashing. It is made through earlier findings of this research project. The article that you sent as a proof, shows me nothing. Just because you’re an entrepreneur doesn’t mean you innovate. Flipkart, Ola, for example. I have a lot of hate for Byju’s too. Bangalore is up there just because of its population and sheer amount of engineers we produce. You talk percentages and you’ll see our city way down in the bottom. Accept this. Do something about it. God knows I am.
    – avismara
    Sep 16, 2019 at 3:22
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In my experience, the job description is little more than a precise image of the ideal candidate. If we could get someone who has all of this combined experience, in the right amounts, that would be perfect!

In reality, the job market is not so cut and dried. For any given job description there is a very large number of people who will actually apply, qualified or not. Of those who are actually qualified, very few if any are likely to meet the full experience or skill set being asked. This doesn't negate the fact that the employer still needs someone to do the job. Either the qualifications matter enough for them to wait until one or more ideal candidates apply, or they don't, and after a long enough time waiting for someone who meets all the qualifications, they'll likely settle on someone who does not, but who nailed the interview and seems to be close enough to train the rest of the way.

It's certainly common for an employer to look for someone that they can train and invest in, and far easier to find such a person, than someone who can hit the ground running with every single desired qualification. If you can demonstrate to a potential employer that you are worth the investment, they may be willing to ignore any shortcomings and fund any required training, whether or not the job description points that out.

I have personally found post-college to present an additional difficulty beyond the one you describe. In addition to lacking any industry experience post-college, having a degree under my belt turned out to be a liability in one specific way: the degree generally makes available more advanced entry level positions for which the employer must pay higher wages. So I found that the entry-level candidates who spent their post-high-school years, not in college, but gaining work experience and solid skills, are the ones who found employment more quickly.

As O. Jones pointed out, when you think from the employer's perspective, it makes more sense to post a targeted job posting for an ideal candidate, and sort through the (perhaps subpar) applications that come in, than to post a generic position expecting no experience and having to sort through and laboriously interview loads more to find the right one. The more applicants you consider, the longer it takes to find the most qualified ones, and the less time you have to really spend vetting and giving each due consideration.

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    So true, Tim. I have applied for (non-programming) jobs before where I did not meet several of the "big" qualifications. However, the pool of people that applied also were missing some "big" qualifications. It also turned out that the one qualified individual had some other issues that management could not overlook, so I got the job. If you think you can do it, ALWAYS apply - if you get an interview, you can explain with concrete examples how you are suited.
    – Nova
    Dec 7, 2016 at 20:14
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One can count any relevant study or job beside the studies as experience (assuming that we're talking about a newly graduated student). Then one can get some years of experience.

That is actually the reason why one writes peronal letter and describes why the past experience is relevant to the job one applies to.

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