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As an Australian, used to numbering every box, I'd just like to point out if just 471 of 3191 exhausted votes had Samuel Liew as a fourth preference, the result of the 8th moderator election would be different.

That's 14.7% of the exhausted vote, but only 1.56% of total voters.

Perhaps it is time to increase the number of preferences.

And I'm not necessarily a Samuel Liew supporter, he just happens to be a closish fourth.

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  • 16
    so... if 15% of the electorate voted differently, the result would also be different? That doesn't really surprise me.
    – ArtOfCode
    Nov 26, 2016 at 17:51
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    brb, drawing lots to see which of the incumbents gets the axe.
    – BoltClock
    Nov 26, 2016 at 17:56
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    What are they going to do with an axe @BoltClock?
    – Bart
    Nov 26, 2016 at 18:31
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    @ArtOfCode The point is that the election result may be changed by the 4th preference of the voters. And we don't know what those preferences are, because the system doesn't allow them to be expressed. This isn't about people voting differently, it's about having more information about voter preferences.
    – user6655984
    Nov 26, 2016 at 20:22

2 Answers 2

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After each election, whether it is for the US president or for Stack Overflow ♦ moderators, there will always be people complaining about the rules. If the US elections would have been a direct election, we would have had different results. If you had convinced a couple of hundred Stack Overflow users (more) to vote for Samuel, we would also have had different results. It is typical that it is always the people who feel they lost the elections ask for a recount of the votes to change the rules.

This is purely a matter of personal preference, and you're entitled to your own opinion on this, but I like the current system of having three votes for three seats. I guess I just like symmetry.

Also, note that the previous two elections yielded five new ♦ moderators (because other ♦ moderators decided to step down). So Samuel might be elected after all.

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    And why does it make sense to limit the number of choices to 3 when the number of elected moderators is likely to be 5?
    – user6655984
    Nov 26, 2016 at 20:22
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    It's not per sé likely to be 5 - I merely hinted at the possibility of more moderators being elected.
    – Glorfindel
    Nov 26, 2016 at 20:36
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    Actual number of winners of past elections: 5, 5, 3, 6, 3, 5, 5. Electing only 3 is an exception rather than a rule. Yet, voters are prevented from expressing their preferences beyond 3rd place.
    – user6655984
    Nov 26, 2016 at 20:42
  • Actually, I would normally expect the Meek count to be continued to determine future moderators, but, in this case, Liew is the only non-eliminated candidate left.
    – Mark Hurd
    Nov 26, 2016 at 22:38
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    "This is purely a matter of personal preference" Well, no, it isn't, it's a matter of well-established voting theory. STV is more representative with the chance to set additional rankings. One might argue that this comes at the cost of additional hassle and time spent voting, but a) making the election more representative of those who care the most is arguably not a bad outcome and b) OpaVote already has a streamlined way to handle this. "I like the current system of having three votes for three seats." That isn't the actual system, and it never has been. Mar 22, 2019 at 7:42
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For those who don't understand the question, "exhausted" votes are votes that can no longer be transferred because the voter didn't pick any candidates that survived to the final round. The problem can be eliminated by allowing (or even requiring) voters to rank all candidates. It has a solid theoretical basis as exhausted votes represent people who did not have a say in the final results. So if there had been an option to rank a candidate fourth, it's possible another candidate might win a slot due to votes that were not exhausted after all.

Currently, the Stack Exchange ballot gives the opportunity to assign a candidate to one of three ranks:

Three choices

Many of our elections have three slots, so it might be assumed that's why we have three choices. But even in elections with one or two slots, there are still three choices. On rare occasions where we've had more four moderator spots (SO #2 and #4, Math #4, and the graduation elections on Code Review, Code Golf, Skeptics, Christianity, Academia and Worldbuilding), we've only allowed three choices. That's because the ballot is hardcoded with three choices. For these elections, it seems weird that literally no ballot can reflect the final results, but remember the S in STV is for Single. Limiting the vote to three choices reduces the individual's influence only fractionally. Only if you didn't pick any of the winners in your three choices will your vote be wasted.

Another quirk of our ballot is that voters can pick a 2nd or 3rd choice without picking a 1st choice. OpaVote, our election results service provider, treats these votes as if the highest choice picked is the first choice of the voter. This is almost certainly the correct choice, but it does suggest voters are unclear on how the system works. (Or think they are being clever. Hard to know.) Perhaps giving the option to rank all candidate would eliminate that confusion.

I don't think we should change just because some elections are close.

When I think about how I vote in moderator elections, my job is to find three candidates who I'd prefer to represent my interests. I might find just one or two, in which case I rank fewer than three. I never need to decide whether someone near the bottom of the list is my 8th or 9th choice because the system won't accept that preference. Chances are I won't do the work needed and it'll end up a virtual coin flip. Odds are low that a ninth preference will make a difference anyway, so why force (or encourage) people to take that sort of time?

We have pretty good evidence that many people aren't interested in ranking all the candidates, but rather just voting for the one or two users they happen to want to be moderator. Almost 6% of voters undervoted in 2018. (We had all permutations, by the way. I wish I understood why some voters use just their second choice.) I strongly suspect other voters simply rank people by reputation or candidate score. While it's true those exhausted votes could have changed the course of the election, I don't think it's worth exhausting voters for theoretical accuracy.

The Trump exception

I wrote about the Republican Primary in 2016. In full disclosure, I voted for Kasich when the California primary rolled around because I thought Trump was a terrible choice to be president. In fact, I would have voted for just about any of the other candidates if they had been in the running. If the Republican party had used an STV system, I would have ranked all the other candidates so that I could maximize the odds that Trump wouldn't exceed the quota. But I wouldn't be able to do that if I only could rank three candidates.

While it is rare, I have occasioned to wish I could vote against a candidate on a Stack Exchange election in the same way I wished I could have voted against a certain sitting president. As a practical matter, that's more or less the only advantage I can see to ranking 11 candidates. I'm not sure that counts for very much in the end since some of the people I would have ranked last have gone on to serve as moderator with distinction.

Simpler ballot encourages voting

The biggest strike against adding more choices is that it makes the ballot more daunting. Nobody is forced to vote, so a long list of names with an equally long list of voting buttons is going to turn some people off. Maybe not really diligent voters, perhaps. But democracy is intended to estimate the will of the people, not just people who comb through the candidates with great care. Sometimes a good candidate misses out on being elected due to the quirk of the ballot. They often run again the next election and win easily. Or maybe they decide to focus on writing great answers and never run again. Who knows? What we can know (or at least guess with confidence) is that making the ballot longer and more complex will turn away more voters.

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  • "Only if you didn't pick any of the winners in your three choices will your vote be wasted." Anecdotally, this is not a rare occurrence. Specifically, only in 2013 and 2016 of the available elections on this site did the exhausted fraction remain below 10% on the round before the last candidate elimination. In no case did it remain below 10% on the last round, and on several occasions there were more exhausted votes than for the last winning candidate. Mar 22, 2019 at 8:00
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    "The biggest strike against adding more choices is that it makes the ballot more daunting." OpaVote already pretty much solved this problem (see the Executive Committee section on the demo election for an example of a voting interface that efficiently allows 1–n selections), so the only reason this is still an issue is that SE for some reason hasn't given up on its hand-rolled election interface. Mar 22, 2019 at 8:10
  • @NathanTuggy: I'll have to look at the data for exact numbers, but at least some of the exhausted votes were from people who only used one or two choices. Adding more wouldn't help those voters. On the second point, I don't see how that will solve the problem of encouraging users to randomly pick the bottom half of the ballot. WIth our current ballot, the candidate statement is right next to vote buttons, so it's convenient to refer to information helpful for making a good choice. Our ballot is not perfect, but it serves voters well enough I don't think it's a high priority to change. Mar 22, 2019 at 13:24

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