8

Most readers here are familiar with the famous regular expression answer, and Stack Overflow in my view is a richer place for occasionally allowing such things. However, I have found a user who is writing in this fashion for all of his posts.

I should say that though I am not a Python person, I suspect the core technical content of these answers to be really good. However, I find the deadpan, meme-referencing and wisecracking style to be rather distracting, and I am not sure how easy the material would be to consume for a reader whose first language is not English. In other words, the material is of good quality, but it is not reference quality, which is what we strive for.

Some samples follow.

One

You thought this was gonna be trivial, didn't you? Welcome to py.test hell.
[...]
This isn't quite teeing, of course. But every great journey begins with a tedious prequel everyone forgets in five years.
[...]
If it bleeds, we can patch it.
[...]

E.T., Patch Home

I don't even know what that subheading is supposed to mean. Yet we press on.
[...]

But What About Teeing? You Promised Teeing

I promised nothing! Extending the above monkey-patch to tee stdout and stderr is left as an exercise to the reader with a barrel-full of free time. ("It ain't me, babe.") [Links to meme material on YouTube]

Two

Feast on the unexpected awesome of bear typing:
[...]
So what's the rub, bub?
[...]
To prevent well-meaning (but sadly small-minded) coworkers from removing the type checking you silently added after last Friday's caffeine-addled allnighter to your geriatric legacy Django web app, type checking must be fast. So fast that no one notices it's there when you add it without telling anyone. I do this all the time! Stop reading this if you are a coworker.
[...]
Just because. Welcome to bear typing.

What The...? Why "bear"? You're a Neckbeard, Right?

[...]
We've all seen it a hundred times a googleplex times, and vomited a little in our mouths everytime we did. Repetition gets old fast. DRY, yo.

Get your vomit bags ready. For brevity, let's assume a simplified easy_spirit_bear() function accepting only a single str parameter.
[...]
Can such wrapper functions actually be reliably generated to type check arbitrary functions in less than 275 lines of pure Python? Snake Plisskin says, "True story. Got a smoke?" [Links to meme on Wikipedia]

And, yes. I may have a neckbeard.

No, Srsly. Why "bear"?

Bear beats duck. Duck may fly, but bear may throw salmon at duck. In Canada, nature can surprise you.

Next question.

What's So Hot about Bears, Anyway?

[...]
And leycec said, Let the @beartype bring forth type checking fastly: and it was so.
[...]

Tests or It Didn't Happen

Here's the gist of it [link to GitHub Gist]. Get it, gist? I'll stop now.
[...]
Now the mandatory neckbeard rant nobody asked for.

A History of API Violence

[...]
I ask Guido: "Why? Why bother inventing an abstract API if you weren't willing to pony up a concrete API actually doing something with that abstraction?" Why leave the fate of a million Pythonistas to the arthritic hand of the free open-source marketplace? Why create yet another techno-problem that could have been trivially solved with a 275-line decorator in the official Python stdlib?

Three

It Was a Dark and Stormy Coding Session...

Our glum tale begins, as many do, with a tedious backstory.
[...]
That's usually a good thing, lest black-hat intruders tamper with my glutenous digital horde of... "stuff."
[...]

Get to the Fix, Already!

[...]
Thus was the unclear made clear, the buggy debugged, and the slow tests parallelized quickly.

Four

O.K., it actually is. It's hairy; it's nasty; it probably chortles as it burbles and giggles as it glows. But what you gonna do? Nuthin'.

We'll soon descend into the radioactive abyss of low-level code. But first, let's talk high-level shop.
[...] Unleash the dogs of mind-fellating insanity!
[...]
Lost? Great. Let's begin. (Python 3 assumed. See "What Is Fragile Hope for 300, leycec?")

(and so they continue).

Now, I don't wish to presuppose any answers from Meta here. Given that we all liked the Zalgo regular expression thing, maybe we can give space for one (evidently knowledgeable) user to do what he likes? He is certainly a fine writer.

On the flip side, some may take the view that if the laughometer is this active, perhaps the material belongs on his blog instead?

I have tried to reach out to this poster in comments, but have gotten no bites.


Edit: I am receiving a handful of downvotes for this - that's fine, but do please add an answer to expand on your disagreement. We cannot gather a full range of community opinion if objectors maintain their silence.

Edit 2: the user I'm talking about has acquired +200 in the last few hours, almost certainly as a result of the 'meta effect'. Please do not vote (either way) in response to this post, and - if anyone needs reminding - please do not serial vote by user, either up or down.

Edit 3: a high rep user appears to have presupposed the outcome of this discussion, and added this comment under one of the OP's answers:

Cecil... keep on writing in the style you feel represents your voice. The Meta community has spoken and agrees your writing style is a-o-k. Keep on being you.

Really? :=)

31
  • 8
    If they don't respond (and, in all likelihood, if they do but don't change anything), I'd suggest editing. As you point out, it's not exactly reference material and just makes it harder to read and understand.
    – jonrsharpe
    Jul 2, 2016 at 11:22
  • 1
    I fear that given their length, and the amount of material I'd be chopping out, there would not be much left @jonrsharpe, or that I'd be signing myself up for a lot of work :-). However I might try nibbling at the edges of a couple of them, if Meta is firmly of the view that this style is discouraged. Thanks.
    – halfer
    Jul 2, 2016 at 11:24
  • 31
    The zalgo post worked because it was a one-off (as far as I'm aware). This is just a distracting writing style that's more appropriate for a personal blog, in my opinion. Jul 2, 2016 at 15:51
  • 4
    The S/N ratio of these posts is in a different league than The Answer. I personally could do without the headings, but there's plenty of meat in the linked answers.
    – jscs
    Jul 2, 2016 at 17:25
  • 1
    In the first case (Not in general), IMO, It is a useful answer. It has a lot of meta contents, rants, etc that may be better removed. It was also discussed earlier in the Python Chatroom and in SOCVR Chatroom. (Again, Continuing this behavior is certainly not good for a professional site like ours.) Jul 2, 2016 at 22:48
  • 5
    This would bug the crap out of me. If my question were answered that way I would just likely not upvote it.
    – chiliNUT
    Jul 3, 2016 at 1:49
  • 7
    It would be bad enough if the crap was interspersed with the actual info in such a way that you could easily tell the difference and skip the crap, but some of the info is buried inside the crap. Just edit out all that is unnecessary. This user needs to learn that SO is not his personal blog. Jul 3, 2016 at 4:33
  • 20
    OK, I'll take on the unpopular opinion: this guy makes answers both with content and a pleasure to read. I salute him, his answers are far, far better than 99% of those I usually read. I get that SO isn't a comedy standup bar, but we have someone who lightens the mood and clearly enjoys writing helpful answers. Any OP who can't be bothered to read answers of this length can't be too serious about their problem.
    – Ingo Bürk
    Jul 3, 2016 at 21:49
  • 2
    Looks like Python has bitten this guy.
    – Teemu
    Jul 4, 2016 at 12:01
  • 6
    A few of us seem to have forgotten this diagram: blog.codinghorror.com/content/images/uploads/2008/09/… (blog.codinghorror.com/…) - I don't have a problem with this user's answers. Seems that some people have forgotten to how read long form answers, that's your problem, not this users problem. Seriously, these are great answers, assuming they're completely correct.
    – Kev
    Jul 4, 2016 at 12:17
  • 1
    @IngoBürk, usually, I would be writing it - which is far less strenuous for me. And when I read - I read in small portions. Sometimes, I just need more time to see what a code is doing if it is too long and spaghetti-like. But if it is well-written, with neat methods, objects, etc., it is not a big problem. But, if I see an answer with that amount of unnecessary information and if on a first "scan" of the text I can't find anything useful, I would just skip reading it. And I have learned to "scan" text for useful information pretty well. You know, people adapt. Jul 4, 2016 at 12:27
  • 8
    @shark That will not work. I see absolutely nothing wrong with the form of these answers. In fact, I think they're great, as Ingo has already pointed out. I'm shocked so many people seem to find them problematic. But I would never vote on them, because I don't know anything about Python and can't judge the technical veracity of them. I don't personally feel right about voting on content over form, and I don't want to encourage others to do the same. Pretty tired of the TL;DR crowd, though. If you don't care enough or have time enough to read, go do something else. Jul 4, 2016 at 12:27
  • 2
    @CodyGray +1, i do agree. The answer might be good, filled with maybe-unneccessary-but-nice-yet-not-bad expressions. But I do like the fact that you're pointing out the hypocrisy of the meta crowd on this matter. I don't see anything wrong or problematic either.
    – Shark
    Jul 4, 2016 at 12:36
  • 2
    I'm mostly active in the Python tag (but I don't have gold yet). I just read through example #2. I'm not exactly a huge fan of that style of comedy, but I guess it's moderately humorous. And it looks like this guy really does know his stuff, there is a lot of excellent information in that answer, as well as high quality code. I think his answers would be better if he reduced the quantity of humorous material a bit, but I'd be sad if his answers were totally sterilized of all the fun stuff.
    – PM 2Ring
    Jul 4, 2016 at 14:27
  • 12
    the regex answer is not equivalent to these answers in the least. It has a contextual point it is making with the formatting. These are just being silly for the sake of being silly. The silliness is not in context of the answer or the question. The regex answer is clever in context, these python ones are not.
    – user177800
    Jul 4, 2016 at 18:11

5 Answers 5

58

We don't really need any sort of policy for something like this. This is simply something to be handled by normal voting on the posts by those that are active in that tag. If they feel that the use of humor is not used appropriately to emphasize important points, and is instead merely distracting, then they may well feel that the posts aren't useful (as a reminder, you should be voting on posts based on how useful they are, not purely based on technical accuracy; that is merely one factor in determining how useful a post is). Conversely, if readers feel that the language adds to the value of the answer, or at least, that it doesn't detract from it sufficiently to offset the value of the technical information in the post, then they can use their votes to reflect that.

Of course, if you would like to comment on the post to inform the author of your opinion of the post, to perhaps indicate how it could be improved (if you feel that the language detracts from the post, rather than adding to it) then you're more than welcome to express that opinion.

It's certainly not wrong or inappropriate to use humor in posts here. It's just one tool to be used, as in any writing (or communication in general, for that matter), that can be used appropriately or inappropriately in any given situation.

For further reading see: Stack Overflow: Where We Hate Fun

10
  • 2
    "This is simply something to be handled by normal voting on the posts by those that are active in that tag." This. Answers with a bunch of extra fluff just don't get as many votes as answers that get to the point. People usually drop the fluff when they realize this. Jul 2, 2016 at 17:52
  • OK, thanks. The early consensus on is it OK? seems to be 50/50 so far. I'd support editing some of the noise out, but only if it is widely seen as constructive rather than spoilsport. It's not a tag I am active in anyway.
    – halfer
    Jul 2, 2016 at 17:54
  • 20
    It ironic that people are told to refrain from saying "Thanks!" and the like but some guy takes 1k words to write what could have been stated in half or less and we're OK with that. I don't mind a witty statement here or there but this is past over the top.
    – JeffC
    Jul 3, 2016 at 4:15
  • 5
    @JeffC People delete "thanks in advance" noise because it's so easy to delete. Not so for answers with humorous noise - I don't want to edit out this stuff, because it's so much intertwined with content. Also, if I don't understand some of it (e.g. slang), I don't know whether I can edit it out without harming content.
    – anatolyg
    Jul 3, 2016 at 20:49
  • 1
    @anatolyg We could always request a tl;dr section for long posts like this.
    – JeffC
    Jul 3, 2016 at 20:52
  • 4
    @JeffC: The way I see it, "thanks" is basically implied everywhere assuming you're a reasonable person with good manners. And often the word gets so overused and tired that some people end up saying it out of routine rather than sincere gratitude (some can't even be bothered to punctuate it properly "any ideas thanks" or spell it in full "thx" and I really question their sincerity in those cases). Better to just leave it out altogether and focus on the topic at hand. That along with it being easy to remove as anatolyg has stated.
    – BoltClock
    Jul 5, 2016 at 4:58
  • 5
    @BoltClock ie: "Thanks" is a platitude, creative content is not.
    – J...
    Jul 5, 2016 at 5:00
  • 5
    @JeffC: I totally get "this is past over the top", though. If the essence of the post is so heavily diluted by the colorful writing style as to be lost on the reader, it certainly would be worth dialing it down a step or two.
    – BoltClock
    Jul 5, 2016 at 5:01
  • 2
    @J...: And now I struggle with the fact that I learned a new word today but have no better way of expressing my gratitude towards you.
    – BoltClock
    Jul 5, 2016 at 5:01
  • @BoltClock I'd say you managed quite well indeed.
    – J...
    Jul 5, 2016 at 12:17
22

Personally, I think that all answers of this particular user I have read are very well-written. They both contain a lot of "meat" as someone pointed out in the comments, but are also a pleasure to read.

And because of that, the user gets my Kudos. I neither think that we (currently?) need policies for lightening the mood, nor do I think the posts of this user require any kind of editing to "go easy" on the funnies.


Here's my take at some of the criticism that has been stated:

I find the dry, meme-referencing and wisecracking style to be rather distracting

While I see how this can be the case, I think this is primarily opinion-based ( :-) ). Others – like me! – might find boring, academic responses to be such a sleeping pill that reading through a few puns actually keeps my interest up.

In fact, I've rarely enjoyed reading such long answers to topics I am not all too invested in this much.

I am not sure how easy the material would be to consume for a reader whose first language is not English

I certainly agree that it's preferable to have answers which can be read by a large audience, but I don't see any rule that says answers have to be written such that even those who don't (properly) speak English have to be able to understand it.

I also think that such a rule is very hard to phrase. Where's the line? Literally every level of how-well-do-you-speak-English exists out there. I think this as a reason to edit down posts would invite a lot of disagreements which cannot be judged objectively. Just because A knows a word B doesn't, doesn't mean that A is wrong to use that word.

And this argument could be taken much further. Should we also not use any kind of "advanced" English, even if entirely on point, because it might not be easy to understand for someone? I don't think so.

In other words, the material is of good quality, but it is not reference quality

Reference quality being defined how?

and Stack Overflow in my view is a richer place for occasionally allowing such things.

If it isn't "reference quality", how can it be justified occasionally? What does occasionally even mean? In the grand scheme of things, the answers of this user are not even close to being close to being close to being a significant amount.

This would bug the crap out of me. If my question were answered that way I would just likely not upvote it.

I think this is fair and everyone's right.


In conclusion, I think SO is a richer place if writers can, to an extent, be the person they are. Some write in a more extensive style, others in a more funny way. Some care about grammar and typography in their posts, others just wan't to get the information out. Some show a lot with examples, others encourage the user to do more research.

I can definitely say, however, that this user's answers are written with much more heart than virtually most answers I've come across. He clearly loves to write and his answers contain all the right information.

And, to conclude my answer, I would add that if answers of the average length this user puts into his replies, are considered "too long" to be useful, then I would very much question how serious the OP is about their problem anyway.

21
  • I won't upvote this, as I broadly disagree, but thanks for the effort in writing it up. It is good to capture all views. I may respond to the broader points, but "what does occasionally ... mean?" is easy to answer. Here I mean that, as a proportion of a user's written output, only a small amount is written in a comedic style. That covers the zalgo regex answer.
    – halfer
    Jul 4, 2016 at 10:39
  • 2
    "Some care about grammar and typography in their posts, others just wan't to get the information out" - no, this is just plainly incorrect. Wilfully wrong grammar and punctuation here (done for stylistic reasons) is heavily discouraged - we've discussed this on Meta several times already. We try to be understanding of people whose first language is not English, though.
    – halfer
    Jul 4, 2016 at 10:41
  • 2
    "Reference quality being defined how?" - as per the ordinary English meaning of this phrase. Textbooks, Wikipedia, instruction manuals, programming tutorials, academic texts etc. generally aim for reference writing. The community would be losing its focus on quality if it has to have a discussion about what reference quality actually means!
    – halfer
    Jul 4, 2016 at 10:44
  • 4
    @halfer But using the proportion per user rather than across all of SO seems arbitrary to me. Why can't one person have a more "comedic" style while others have a different style? And why is "some" comedy alright just because we all enjoyed one post a long time ago?
    – Ingo Bürk
    Jul 4, 2016 at 12:05
  • 1
    @halfer To the second point: of course we don't want "broken" posts, but some care more about typography than others is what I wanted to say. :-) And the last point I'm still not sure this is good enough for me. Books can have a more lively writing style as well and rarely are written as dry as academic texts. There seems to be a lot of room for interpretation to me.
    – Ingo Bürk
    Jul 4, 2016 at 12:06
  • I think the answer to the question about allowing a user free to write comedic posts has already been stated quite plainly: it's because the style is, for some readers, both difficult to read and irritating.
    – halfer
    Jul 4, 2016 at 12:07
  • 1
    (FWIW, I don't think "reference quality" is the same as "dry". It is possible to have a lively and fresh style without needing to have quips and memes in every paragraph).
    – halfer
    Jul 4, 2016 at 12:08
  • 1
    @halfer "for some readers" – Exactly. For some. And for others it's the other way around. I find this much easier to read than "academic texts" because this keeps my interest up much better.
    – Ingo Bürk
    Jul 4, 2016 at 12:22
  • 1
    "Exactly. For some." - you have not made a grand QED here, in my view. If it affects some readers then it is worth discussing it.
    – halfer
    Jul 4, 2016 at 12:23
  • 1
    Re: "reference quality" see Joel on Software for some consideration of the problem of writing technical stuff that people will actually read. @halfer
    – jscs
    Jul 4, 2016 at 16:37
  • 2
    @halfer My point is not that it only affects a few people. My point is that some people prefer this, other that. If this was about a vast majority, it'd be an easier argument to make. That doesn't mean it isn't worth discussing, it just means that imho the conclusion is that we can't satisfy everyone equally.
    – Ingo Bürk
    Jul 4, 2016 at 17:15
  • P.S.: we should only have policies for things that result in a big net benefit. Otherwise we have policy creep. I see it at my work all too often that people agree on pages and pages of policy and guidelines until no one reads or knows them anymore.
    – Ingo Bürk
    Jul 4, 2016 at 17:18
  • 1
    As it stands, given the wide difference of opinion, I am minded not to edit, and it would probably be best done by a Pythonista anyway. I note that the poster in question has seen this post but not responded, and I would much prefer any amendment is done in a collaborative fashion. Thanks for your input.
    – halfer
    Jul 4, 2016 at 17:34
  • 2
    Only on [feature-requests] are votes on a question meant to signal agreement/disagreement, @halfer. Some people unfortunately misuse them, but an upvote on this question doesn't necessarily mean they agree with your premise; likewise with downvotes.
    – hichris123
    Jul 4, 2016 at 20:07
  • 1
    @hichris123 I'm well acquainted with those posts. Considering that you're asserting that people are abusing votes by expression their opinion of a proposal for questions not tagged "feature request", it sounds like you need to read through those linked posts (along with some of the other posts Shog links to in his answers) to see why that assertion of yours is wrong.
    – Servy
    Jul 5, 2016 at 14:11
3

Apply scientific method. Crib the actual content into a boring answer. The voting system will tell you what you already know.

1

Well, this question has been contentious! I will try to summarise it, to capture what I believe represents a middle way through the views we have heard expressed.

I am basing this set of views on the answers given so far, the comment conversations, and the votes on my question. The votes initially seemed to reflect a 2/3 majority in favour of my theme, which was that we should attempt to reduce the amount of highly colloquial writing on the site (or that we should specify some guidelines to achieve the same). However, the voters that disagree appear to have nearly achieved parity, a couple of days later.

As I see it, there are three camps relating to colloquial writing: Leave Alone, Leave To Voting, and Discourage.

Leave Alone takes the view that comedic and informal writing makes for an interesting read, and lends material a lively and fresh style that technical material might not otherwise possess. It takes a dim view of too-long-don't-read summaries that would essentially rehash the material that the OP has already spent a good deal of time crafting.

Leave To Voting believes that the curators of each tag are the best judge of what material is suited to their culture, and is not in favour of writing up excessively formalised rules around what writing styles are appropriate. If Stack Overflow readers are in favour, or opposed to, comedy writing then they may vote accordingly.

The Discourage camp are not thrilled with this style of writing. They find it distracting or irritating, and would rather it was reduced either somewhat or entirely. Hilarious though it may be, even very funny material belongs elsewhere on the internet, such as on a personal blog. Stack Overflow prefers reference quality writing, and it is not unusual for moderators to explicitly refer to this concept when asking posters to reduce wilfully irritating styles (such as all-caps, snake-case and txtspk). People within this category will edit particularly noisy comedic answers, or will support others doing the same.


There has been no community enthusiasm for new FAQ material, and whilst I would be happy to support it, I am not strongly invested in doing so. Moreover, there have been some expressions of disagreement, so I think we can conclude it is not worth pursuing it further.

At this time, perhaps the best we can conclude is that writers wishing to adopt this writing style will have to do so knowing that a proportion of the readership finds it inappropriate. Perhaps writers who insist upon it might therefore consider toning it down a bit, so their material is less chatty, instead of opting not to contribute at all. Or, such writers could limit their stylised writing to a small proportion of their posts, as per The Answer.

Given that there does not appear to be a firm community mandate to discourage highly informal (but otherwise good quality) writing, I would suggest that editors try to liaise with posters before making substantial edits. (As per a useful comment on this Meta question, if you find an author unwilling to liaise, it may be appropriate to go ahead and make your edits, but bear in mind they may still be subject to rollback - if this happens and your edits were substantial, a moderator flag would probably be appropriate).

Additionally, it may be worth editors considering only editing questions in tags they are normally active in. The questions I referred to in this Meta question were for Python, and since I am not active in that tag, I will refrain on this occasion.


On a meta-meta note, I invited the poster concerned to this conversation, and they did not feel able to contribute. Whilst people called into Meta are free not to respond, I would re-iterate the view that open conversation is usually the best approach, since being willing to interact implies that one is willing to listen to the community's opinions (however they might turn out).

4
  • (As usual, if anyone has strong objections to this answer being the best compromise so far, please speak up in the comments).
    – halfer
    Jul 8, 2016 at 7:16
  • 3
    I'd like to offer a fourth camp: Edit the hell out of the answer, and remove the garbage and noise, as you would with any other answer. This is a site for reference-quality writing, that is what we should be striving for, not these streams of nonsense with useful details hidden inside them. Signal-to-noise matters, it's what this site is built-on, and the noise grossly outweighs the signal in these answers. The completely irrelevant fluff and nonsense needs to go.
    – user229044 Mod
    Jul 9, 2016 at 18:24
  • @meagar: I agree with your sentiment, I mentally group that camp in with Discourage. However, given that there has been an unexpected level of community push-back against the usual expectation for reference quality writing, my summary tries to include that. I rather hope over the long term the community sways back to your position - I worry we are setting a bad precedent here.
    – halfer
    Jul 9, 2016 at 21:16
  • @JoshCaswell Have been AFK, answer posted.
    – user229044 Mod
    Jul 10, 2016 at 14:27
-2

I don't think this requires a lot of thought or debate or reflection, just edit the answers and remove the fluff and off-topic noise. This is not an appropriate form of writing for Stack Overflow. Is it entertaining? Yes. Could the answers be made more useful by removing the noise? Objectively, yes.

This is a site for reference-quality writing, that is what we should be striving for, not these streams of nonsense with useful details hidden inside them. Signal-to-noise matters, that is the foundation on which this site is built, and the noise in these answers grossly outweighs the signal. The completely irrelevant fluff and nonsense needs to go.

3
  • Given that there has been a surprising level of support for Leave Alone, is there enough unanimity amongst moderators on this point to allow readers the confidence to edit without worrying that a rollback would lose their improvements? In light of the discussion, I wonder whether some mods would be inclined to "respect the author's intention", which would render any improvements redundant.
    – halfer
    Jul 10, 2016 at 14:59
  • 1
    If an editor spent the time to clean up these answers (they are so bad that it would be a significant investment) then I would side with the editor, and settle any rollback disputes in the editor's favor. As always, this site is collaboratively edited, and if users aren't comfortable having their posts edited, this isn't the site for them.
    – user229044 Mod
    Jul 10, 2016 at 15:01
  • Sorry to be coming back to this years later, but if "this site is for reference-quality writing", in the academic sense, is correct, I need to start down-voting way more answers which fail to meet that standard (but certainly not because of wit and humor). This answer is the perfect example: a claim is made without any source, thus it fails to meet reference-writing quality expectations – no?
    – Ingo Bürk
    Mar 9, 2021 at 16:34

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