69

In case you haven't read this question: What are the localized versions and where can I find them?, there are SOs that exist in parallel to this one, but in different languages.

Some posts here on (English) SO are entirely non-English, but I will occasionally see someone who has thrown in some native tongue into their post (for example, in the code). I have occasionally handed out links to the other SO sites, when the language matched, but I don't know if it was helpful.

While I know that many non-native English speakers are great contributors to this SO, there are a number of times where it's clear that the OP cannot speak English and communication is a problem.

Is it helpful to give links to these people? (This would be in addition to the appropriate moderation action from here: How do I deal with non-English content?) Or is it more likely to be misunderstood?

And what do the other SOs think about my idea? (I'm not posting on their Metas, because I don't speak the language, but any polyglots should feel free to do so and report back.)

It's not like I'm telling people that they can't come here. But if they knew that they had another option, then they could decide for themselves. And I think that it would be beneficial to both sites (poorly translated questions aren't very useful to anyone, IMHO).

What's interesting is that I discovered the following in a SO blog post:

Direct programmers to native language resources. Users who post non-English questions should be gently directed to programming forums in their own language. Community should form around the gravity of native human languages. (see: Chinatown, Little Italy, etc.) Feel free to post links to appropriate human language-specific resources.

That was posted in 2009, well before any of the localizations were created, which explains the wording (such as "forum"). But I am lead to believe that the other SOs would fit the bill anyway.

If it is a good idea, can I get help translating a short comment to use from people who speak these languages? I know that there are some moderation concerns about having things that aren't in English, but I would use these comments only when the OP doesn't seem to speak English at all. It's not like this couldn't be an exception, because things are usually low quality when language is that much of an issue (and likely to be closed or deleted).

I could see a comment along these lines working:

You seem to be speaking {Language}. This is the English-speaking SO and we require all posts to be in English, but you should see about heading over to the [Language SO](appropriate link), where you can converse with other programmers in {Language}.

Just to be safe, in case anyone responds back in their native tongue, it would also be helpful to know how to convey the fact that I don't speak that language. (I only speak English.)

Here are some other good options from the comments:

This is the English-speaking SO. Many people here do not understand {Language} (including me). That's why we require all posts to be in English. However, there exists a localized version of SO in [Language](link), where you could converse with other programmers in {Language}.

By Trilarion

Welcome to [site name], this site is for [language]-speaking users. Could you translate the question? Otherwise, you might be interested in [localized site].

By Andrew T.

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  • @Qwertiy Thanks for the links! From the discussion on M.RU.SO, it seems like Russian site is open to receiving more people. Hopefully this discussion will spark some people to spread the word.
    – Laurel
    Commented May 16, 2016 at 20:43
  • 2
    I like that comment. Perhaps prepend it with something along the lines of I can only speak English, but it appears to me that you're using/speaking {Language}. [...] I'm all for encouraging users to use a domain whose language they're more familiar/comfortable with.
    – CubeJockey
    Commented May 16, 2016 at 20:59
  • Aside: in Chrome, after Translate to English, clicking "options" shows the language that the page was translated from.
    – user3717023
    Commented May 16, 2016 at 21:03
  • @Qwertiy It seems to me that the translation links are in the wrong languages. People who don't speak Russian won't understand they're being told there's an English translation, and vice-versa ;)
    – Rob Mod
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 2:45
  • 5
    Maybe avoid idiomatic phrases like "you should see about" and "heading over to", which may not be completely clear to non-native speakers. Commented May 17, 2016 at 4:29
  • 1
    @CubeJockey - It does soften the message, but "I can only speak English" is not true for many people.
    – Kobi
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 7:39
  • 4
    My try: "This is the English-speaking SO. Many people here do not understand {Language} (including me). That's why we require all posts to be in English. However, there exists a localized version of SO in [Language](link), where you could converse with other programmers in {Language}." Commented May 17, 2016 at 7:48
  • @kobi Well, OP was interested in knowing how to 'convey the fact that [they] can only speak English' .. So that's the edit I suggested.
    – CubeJockey
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 11:48
  • 7
    I always do a short: "Welcome to [site name], this site is for [language]-speaking users. Could you translate the question? Otherwise, you might be interested in [localized site]. (Followed by translation of the text in localized language)"
    – Andrew T.
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 12:32
  • 2
    Russian cannot be reliably identified by its character set. A couple of other languages (including Bulgarian) use the same alphabet.
    – TRiG
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 13:06
  • 5
    @CaptJak English uses the Latin alphabet, yet I can't speak/read Latin. According to Wikipedia, the Cyrillic alphabet was spread by force sometimes, and it's a bit of a political controversy in some areas. I don't want to get tied up in politics like that...
    – Laurel
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 14:34
  • 1
    @NickVolynkin From what I've learned, Russian has 3 more characters than Bulgarian. But I'm really more concerned about the political undertones that might be seen in that type of a message. I only know what Wikipedia tells me; do you know if there might be issues along that line? Beyond the typical (and understandable) reaction to "But it all looks the same!", I mean.
    – Laurel
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 20:34
  • 5
    @JoeBlow Was that supposed to go here?
    – Laurel
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 22:58
  • 1
    @ForceBru There's no definitive way (unless they are literally speaking Russian or Spanish), but I have found there are some strategies that help. I have started to elaborate on this in my cw answer.
    – Laurel
    Commented May 19, 2016 at 21:04

7 Answers 7

42

The reason for us having SO in multiple languages, from my point of view, is two-fold:

  • People who cannot communicate properly in English have an alternative SE site where they can seek for help, or help others, with programming;
  • People who speak multiple languages can reach more people with their questions and answers.

Your question is strongly related to the first case.

Before the creation of the non-English SO variants, someone who cannot communicate properly in English would be an outcast here. Now they have somewhere to go, where they can both help and get some help themselves.

So by all means, you should leave them a suggestion that they might get better help in one of the multilingual variants of SO.

Now that I think of it, this is better than my default response to such cases.

Edit

I striked down a huge section below because, as ivan_pozdeev said, and I quote and agree:

Oppose a close reason. 1) There's already one, "unclear what you're asking"; 2) to switch to a localized version shall be an advice while a close reason is a ruling.

Edit

I think that we should have a new reason when we go voting for closure: Not in English.

Then, questions put on hold because they are not in English could get something along the lines of the following in their on hold message:

put on hold as not in English by A, B and C some time ago

Please notice that Stack Overflow is an English speaking community, therefore all questions are expected to be posted in English. If you are not fluent in English, however, there are other Stack Exchange sites where you may get help in other languages.

Fala Português? Junte-se ao Stack Overflow em Português.
¿Hablas Español? Únete a Stack Overflow en Español.
Parlez vous français? Allez sur Stack Overflow français.
Parla Italiano? Mamma mia, viene a Stack Overflow in italiano, ecco! (may require a hand gesture here)
etc., etc.

Maybe include only the three or four most popular ones. And no, there are no French nor Italian SO's, it's just that I wanted to get some more examples there and I couldn't speak Russian nor Japanese to save my life.

Another edit

If there is anyway to automate language detection, people who have their questions put on hold like that could get a message along the lines of those in the question here. Perhaps visible only to them. I offer a Portugese translation for them:

You seem to be speaking {Language}. This is the English-speaking SO and we require all posts to be in English, but you should see about heading over to the [Language SO](appropriate link), where you can converse with other programmers in {Language}.

Becomes:

Você parece estar falando em Português. Este é o Stack Overflow em Inglês e aqui é necessário que todos os posts estejam nesse idioma. Dê uma olhada no Stack Overflow em Português, onde você pode conversar com outros programadores em Português.

Yet another edit

I am not a native speaker of English. I do acknowledge that learning English has been the single most useful I've done in my entire life - the amount of information of all kinds at my disposal is probably two orders of magnitude greater than what it was before.

However, I did not learn it overnight. Took me a couple years to become properly fluent. And I was a kid back then, which I believe made it easier. English is a harder barrier for adults that have never had to communicate using it before.

I see a lot of merit in those who are trying. Someone who tries to communicate in English and fails is someone who is learning another language. Eventually they will have skills in at least two languages, which I believe to be one more than the bulk of SO users have.

But by forcing them into speaking English now, we are not helping them solve their programming problems. Rather than that, we are introducing a new requirement to the solution they need.

Let people have multilingual stacks. Eventually most of them will come back here and start contributing to SE in English too.

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    I agree with this in spirit, but the close message rubs me the wrong way.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 15:09
  • 2
    A nicer close message may indeed be more useful. I'm trying to come up with one.
    – Geeky Guy
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 15:15
  • 11
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit: Notwithstanding the point that, if the asker asks a question in a language which doesn't have its own Stack Overflow then they're just plain out of luck, we'd be relying on close voters to accurately identify a language. Plus, it's such a rare occurrence that I'm not convinced an entire close reason would be useful for it, especially when it has the tendency to be abused (e.g. someone writing with incomplete or broken English and their question getting closed with the passive-aggressive, "We only speak English here" message).
    – Makoto
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 19:10
  • 17
    Parla Italiano? Mamma mia, viene a Stack Overflow in italiano, ecco! (may require a hand gesture here) eheh... not properly italian, but nice ;D
    – Miki
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 19:29
  • 3
    @Makoto: "We only speak English here" is not "passive-aggressive". I don't know how you inferred such a thing. The line is a clear, simple statement of fact. What is wrong with providing facts? Does it need more smile emojis or something? Commented May 17, 2016 at 21:19
  • 1
    @Miki: <3 ecco the dolphin Commented May 17, 2016 at 21:20
  • 5
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit: In context, if a person posts broken English, a snide remark could be, "We only speak English here". I'm well aware of and am in full support of this being an English-only site, but I also am well aware of how easily things like this get abused, misconstrued, or thrown about.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 21:56
  • 3
    I really like the idea of just-in-time help for folks who seem to not be writing in English on the English site (and vice versa -- we actually get English-language questions on the Japanese site from time to time). Close reasons I don't like so much (is this really such a common occurrence that we need a canned reason for it? Especially since I'm sure some well-meaning souls may end up using that to close questions by non-native speakers).
    – jmac Staff
    Commented May 18, 2016 at 4:30
  • 4
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit or you could do what the Japanese community did when a Japanese user didn't realize he could write in Japanese, which is translate it for him and actually solve his problem. Being nice and helpful seems to be a good default approach. (I understand that this question would be closed six ways in a heartbeat on the English site. Thankfully ja.SO is more 2008-2009 SO than today SO)
    – jmac Staff
    Commented May 18, 2016 at 4:35
  • 4
    I don't think we have quite enough data yet, but I'm very interested in running numbers on how many people start participating on a non-English site, and eventually cross 200 rep on the English site. Right now it's the inverse, with many having started on the English site, but I think in a year's time we might have something interesting to see.
    – user50049
    Commented May 18, 2016 at 5:13
  • 2
    Honestly, what is wrong with "we speak English here"? I don't get it. This is not an English-language site. Seriously, do you want more exclamation marks on it or something? What on earth is "rude" about it? I simply do not understand. Commented May 18, 2016 at 8:46
  • 1
    @AnthonyGrist: None of that explains why some people seem, quite bizarrely, to think that this statement is somehow "rude". Commented May 19, 2016 at 13:51
  • 2
    @LightnessRacesinOrbit I think the meaning behind the words is perceived as being "You're not aware of the rules. This is one of them." for the former, and "You're trying, but you're just not good enough. Go ask somewhere else." for the latter. The statement in and of itself is fine, but the context and the meaning behind the words is what makes it rude (to some people). Personally, I don't have an issue with it, since we essentially say "You're trying, but you're not good enough." to people for plenty of other reasons that aren't strictly about their ability to communicate in English. Commented May 19, 2016 at 14:02
  • 1
    @AnthonyGrist: If someone's perceiving completely harmless words in such a manner, the problem is them. Those sentences bear absolutely no similarity to the current wording whatsoever. Commented May 19, 2016 at 14:10
  • 1
    Oppose a close reason. 1) There's already one, "unclear what you're asking"; 2) to switch to a localized version shall be an advice while a close reason is a ruling. Commented May 19, 2016 at 17:46
31

So we implemented a very simple language checker (very easy for Japanese/Russian, a bit less-so for Spanish/Portuguese) which will pop up if you seem to be typing in one of those languages in the title. It looks like this:

All 4 languages in one post -- never gonna happen, but we have it covered anyway

We are going to run this for a month or two as-is (despite false positives) to get stats on:

  1. How many questions does this catch?
  2. How many questions does this deter?
  3. How many English question-askers does this perturb?

Once we have stats on that, we'll figure out next steps.


Yes, please feel free to leave a comment directing folks to the most appropriate localized SO site. While we are definitely making an effort to direct non-English speaking visitors to the English SO to the localized sites, no method is going to get everyone, so friendly nudges from the community are definitely appreciated.

With that said, I don't mean to send everyone who speaks a language other than English to the localized sites. If a Japanese-speaker is doing their best to post a question in English on SO, do your best to help them ask in English as that's their intent. The localized SOs are for folks who want to allow people who don't speak English to access the answers to their questions more easily -- not a place where every speaker of that language belongs.

3
  • 4
    It might be useful to have a message in English at the top of that banner, something like, "It looks like this post is not written in English". Seeing a warning pop up in a different language, with no context, might be a bit confusing to users.
    – Rob Mod
    Commented Jun 10, 2016 at 4:06
  • 2
    @Rob So far it doesn't seem to be confusing anyone given the context, but I'll keep an eye on it. If we add a bunch more text, it will be less likely to be useful (shorter = more likely folks read it), but I'll keep an eye out for folks who get confused when it pops up (though it doesn't actually prevent them from posting).
    – jmac Staff
    Commented Jun 10, 2016 at 4:08
  • How did the language checker go? Is it still in place? Commented Oct 17, 2021 at 0:49
5

To start, let's quote a comment that I wrote to another answer:

Let's say that X is some person who lives in a non-English speaking country. X have the sincere desire to eventually learn English someday, but he is still unable to communicate properly in English. However, X still has some bug in his program, a stacktrace or coredump in his screen, still have deadlines for delivering his code and still needs help. You can't just tell him "go away, stop everything for 1 or 2 years until you learn English, and just after that, come back here".

Learning English for non-English speakers is hard. English courses for non-native speakers can be expensive, and they take some daily/weekly time that many people simply don't have. People frequently take years to learn proper English even when actively studying it, and some people never are able to learn it properly, even if trying hard. Further, although there are a lot of English courses out there, most of them are far from adequate for proper English learning. Many people who take those courses may tell things like "I am with sleep" instead of "I want to sleep" or "You want a cup of coffe?" instead of "Do you want a coffee cup?", because they are directly translating words from their mother language to English (very probably I might be included within those sometimes).

Also, English has some rules that are very alien/strange for non-speakers. Should I use "has", "have" or "had"? Is it written with "th", "ht" or just "t"? Should I add an "h" after the "w"? Is it written with "i" or "y"? Is it with "f", "ph" or "v"? In what contexts should I use "not" instead of "no"? Where should I add an apostrophe (if in fact I should)? And so on... Those things are likely to be confused a lot for non-speakers, which in part explains why a lot of posts here on Stack Overflow are severely typoed and features very poor English grammar, and also explains why the Stack Exchange network have not one, but two, fully grown and graduated sites dedicated for English. So, even if someone can write and read English, many spelling mistakes may happen, like this (see edit/revision #15).

Some people use Google Translator or some similar tools:

In A.D. 2101
War was beginning.
Captain: What happen?
Mechanic: Somebody set up us the bomb.
Operator: We get signal.
Captain: What !
Operator: Main screen turn on.
Captain: It's you !!
CATS: How are you gentlemen !!
CATS: All your base are belong to us.
CATS: You are on the way to destruction.
Captain: What you say !!
CATS: You have no chance to survive make your time.
CATS: Ha ha ha ha ....
Operator: Captain !!
Captain: Take off every 'ZIG'!!
Captain: You know what you doing.
Captain: Move 'ZIG'.
Captain: (...)For great justice.


CONGRATULATION !!
A.D.2111
All bases of CATS Were destroyed.
It seems to be peaceful.
but it is incorrect.
CATS is still alive.
ZIG-01 must fight
against CATS again.
And down with them
completely!
Good luck.

Ok, you may argue that this is too old. But let's try the Brazilian music Garota de Ipanema:

Olha que coisa mais linda
Mais cheia de graça
É ela menina
Que vem e que passa
Num doce balanço
A caminho do mar

Moça do corpo dourado
Do sol de Ipanema
O seu balançado é mais que um poema
É a coisa mais linda que eu já vi passar

[Awful] translation by Google:

Look what a beautiful thing
More full of grace
It is her girl
Coming and going
A sweet swing
The way of the sea

Golden girl body
The Ipanema sun
Your balanced is more than a poem
It's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen go

Translation by me:

Look what a gorgeous thing
So full of grace
Is she the girl
Who comes and goes
With a sweet swing
In the way to the sea

Girl of the golden body
From Ipanema's Sun
Her swing is more than a poem
It's the most gorgeous thing that I'd ever seen

The automatic translation was close, but the errors are likely to produce serious misinterpretations. It is specially problematic that Google used "Your" instead of "Her", which is likely to cause a lot of confusion in some conversations where somebody is communicating through Google Translate.

To makes things worse, let's see what happens if I translate from Google's English to Chinese, then back to English:

See what a beautiful thing
More full of grace
This is her girl
Coming and going
A sweet swing
Sea Road

Golden Girl body
Ipanema Sun
Your balance is more than poetry
This is what I see the most beautiful thing in the past

WTF!? Sea Road!? Now, you may see that the original meaning was significantly degraded.

In fact, translating has many subtleties that Google Translate may get wrong. For example "bateu à porta" is "knocked in the door" and "bateu a porta" is "slammed the door". The grave accent makes a lot of difference and the same verbal form "bateu" may be translated as "knock" or "slam". Also, "bateu na porta" may be "knocked in the door" or "hit the door", depending on the conext. The same word "bateu" maybe "slammed", "hit", "knocked", "smashed", "crashed" or "matched", accordingly to the context. Needless to say, translators frequently mess those ones. English also have those subtleties, as "die" may mean "death" or "dice". Some words may fool you, like "pretender" in Portuguese means "to intend" instead of "to pretend" (that one almost made me run in trouble on a Stack Overflow chat a while ago).

Also, many people who try to learn English face a particular problem: There is nobody around to whom he/she could engage/practicize* his/her English skills. I will give myself as an example. I am Brazilian and English is my second language, and although I can read and write English reasonably well, it took me maaaaaany years to be able to do that. With regards to conversation, I am only able to communicate efficiently in English with another Brazilian, due to the accent and the prosody. When I am in a conversation with a native speaker, I have a lot of difficulty to understand what he/she says and he/she also have a lot of difficulty to understand what I mean. The solution to this particular problem would be to practise more conversation with native speakers, but only very rarely I am able to meet one.

Now, going back to my X person, what is the conclusion? The conclusion is that having localized sites add value and includes people who simply can't to read or write English properly. Trying to force them to read and write proper English will not work, because learning foreign languages is hard, expensive and takes a lot of time. This gets a lot worse for languages that are structured much differently from what English is, like Japanese or Chinese, for example. The result is those frequently questions and answers featuring a lot of bad grammar with severe typos, or people who simply are unable to contribute anything valuable at all.

And about code, sometimes there are terms which simply can't be properly translated. For example, in Brazil we have things called "Nota Fiscal" and "Boleto" and I have no good and accurate translation for that, so they are likely to be present in source code in their original forms. Also, people tends to program better and communicate better with their co-workers in their mother language, which means that non-English speakers will tend to produce code that mixes words from English with their mother languages in weird/strange ways, and they end up being more productive in that way than trying to insist in addering to pure English just to not make the code look weird. Also, I'd seen many times people who tried to produce code in pure English and ended up producing code featuring bad English instead.

Is it "practicize", "practize", "practicise" or "practise"? I guess that it is "practicize", but I will not consult Google for that. If I misspelled that, then you may see what the problem is here.

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    "Practise", unless you are feeling (North) American, and then it's "practice" See: grammarist.com/spelling/practice-practise
    – Laurel
    Commented May 18, 2016 at 1:20
  • 6
    Oh Zero-wing, the first Internet meme I ever saw, and still the best. Commented May 18, 2016 at 3:40
  • 3
    Oh I totally upvoted this for the Zero-wing reference ;). But also because I agree, the language-specific sites are there for a reason, why not use them when possible?
    – Ajean
    Commented May 19, 2016 at 20:05
3

Since nobody has provided several translations (and I really could have used a Russian one just now), I have tried my best to provide a starting point.

Now, it's a little tricky knowing who exactly to reach out to. I'll share some of the criteria I am using.

Where to look:

  • Questions that are closed for being in a language other than English.
  • Questions that have been closed as unclear (because they are nearly gibberish)
  • Questions that are not attracting attention because of a possible language barrier.
  • Posts where the author seems ashamed of their "bad english". As if they wouldn't be speaking English if they had another choice.
  • Posts with non-English code or error messages.

Once you have someone in mind, you need to identify their native language:

  • Is there any foreign text? Sometimes, their name can be a good indication, but it's better to rely on longer bits of text if possible. Look at the character set. Google Translate does a pretty good job at identifying languages like that.
  • Look at their profile. Do they mention their location? The end of domain names is also a great give away (www.example.ru = Russia). Of course, some countries don't have a clear majority language, and it's possible that the user is in the minority.

I have already reached out to a number of people based on these criteria. And I know that my judgement is somewhat accurate because I find that I sometimes have no need to reach out – they are already a member of the other SO community.

I have made this community wiki, so feel free to edit as you see fit (and even add more messages). But only if you actually speak that language (no Google Translate).

It's mostly in English, and it's very simple, but it's a good start. I was able to copy the text from the "welcome" message that reads "in {Language}", so I'm not worried about that part being wrong.

(Hopefully people are desperate/gullible/impulsive enough to click the link. I am experimenting a little and I'll see who bites.)

As ivan_pozdeev has pointed out in the comments, it might be better to use "may want to" instead of "should". I'm not sure that it really makes a difference while the wording's in English, but keep it in mind if you plan to contribute a translation.

I intended for these messages to be used when the person clearly doesn't speak English, so I want to use wording that has little chance of being minced if the person is using Google Translate.

Russian

You should try [ru.SO]. It's in Russian (на русском).

Japanese

You should try [jp.SO]. It's in Japanese (日本語版).

The text beneath the Stack Overflow logo actually just says "Stack Overflow": スタック・オーバーフロー. The Japanese Meta post discussing that is here.

Spanish

You should try [es.SO]. It's in Spanish (en español).

Portuguese

You should try [pt.SO]. It's in Portuguese (em Português).

I have also taken the liberty of adding the translation from Renan's answer:

You seem to be speaking {Language}. This is the English-speaking SO and we require all posts to be in English, but you should see about heading over to the [Language SO](appropriate link), where you can converse with other programmers in {Language}.

Becomes:

Você parece estar falando em Português. Este é o Stack Overflow em Inglês e aqui é necessário que todos os posts estejam nesse idioma. Dê uma olhada no Stack Overflow em Português, onde você pode conversar com outros programadores em Português.

Generic

Sometimes, I find posts that are perfectly well written. The author knows English well enough, but it's obvious (for another reason, maybe the code comments, or the author's own mention) that their native language is one of the ones that has its own localized version.

In these cases, the language barrier isn't really a problem. I've had success with this message:

Did you know that there's also a Stack Overflow in [Language](Link)? In the end, you can use which ever site you want, but now you know you have the choice.

9
  • The Japanese just says "Stack Overflow." Was the part in parentheses supposed to be the name of the language? Commented May 19, 2016 at 1:47
  • @ThisSuitIsBlackNot yeah, Japanese is weird that way. Since there's only one language that uses Japanese characters, putting it in Japanese characters makes it clearly Japanese. It was a point of some contention in the community, with those who already know Stack Overflow (and how to say it) suggesting we put that in English and put 日本語版 or something at the end instead.
    – jmac Staff
    Commented May 19, 2016 at 2:03
  • @jmac I understand why that's the name of the site, I'm just saying that I don't think it would make sense to post the above as a comment on somebody's question, which is what Laurel seems to be proposing here. Commented May 19, 2016 at 2:21
  • @ThisSuitIsBlackNot no fears -- if this does get implemented we'll be the ones looking at it, and we will be sure that something that doesn't make sense doesn't get through (probably, at least -- we are all human, except Gabe who is a Portuguese-speaking Advanced form of AI from the future).
    – jmac Staff
    Commented May 19, 2016 at 2:22
  • @ThisSuitIsBlackNot I had no clue that it didn't follow the same pattern as all of the other sites. (Maybe that's why people sometimes post in English there?) Feel free to change it, since you seem to know Japanese.
    – Laurel
    Commented May 19, 2016 at 2:26
  • @jmac AI from the future would give new meaning to "just-in-time help" ;) Commented May 19, 2016 at 2:26
  • 1
    "should" -> "may want to". Commented May 19, 2016 at 17:08
  • @jmac I think that I found your discussion. It's fortunate that it's so highly voted, so I was able to find it with the help of Google Translate: ブランド展開戦略: 「日本語版」と言わない. Is the phrase I stole from there a good substitute?
    – Laurel
    Commented May 19, 2016 at 17:09
  • 1
    @Laurel yep, that works
    – jmac Staff
    Commented May 20, 2016 at 1:34
-4

Whether non-native speakers like it or not, English is the lingua franca of computer programming and has been for decades. When Niklaus Wirth worked on Algol and Pascal, he did it in English, not German. When Guido van Rossum developed Python, he did it in English, not Dutch. When Yukihiro Matsumoto created Ruby, he did it in English, not Japanese. Why? Because English is how programmers communicate!

Referring someone to an isolated foreign-language community rather than encouraging them to learn English and participate in the wider world of programming does them a disservice. It encourages the growth of ghettoized communities within StackExchange and walls off knowledge rather than sharing it broadly.

In the end, it comes down to the "give a man a fish..." principle. Help someone with a code problem in their native language, and you help them for a day. Encourage them to learn to communicate with the entire world of established programmers, and you help them (and everyone they end up helping!) for a lifetime.

When I turned 11 we had to leave East Germany overnight because of the political orientation of my father. Now I was going to school in West Germany, which was American-occupied at that time. There in school all children were required to learn English and not Russian. To learn Russian had been difficult, but English was impossible for me. I thought my mouth was not made for speaking English! My teachers struggled. My parents suffered. And I knew English was definitely not my language. But then something changed in my young life. Almost daily I rode my bicycle to the airport and watched airplanes take off and land. I read, studied, and learned everything I could find about aviation. It was my greatest desire to become a pilot. I could already picture myself in the cockpit of an airliner or in a military fighter plane. I felt deep in my heart this was my thing! Then I learned that to become a pilot I needed to speak English. Overnight, to the total surprise of everybody, it appeared as if my mouth had changed. I was able to learn English. It still took a lot of work, persistence, and patience, but I was able to learn English! Why? Because of ... a strong motive!

-- Dieter Uchtdorf, former German air force pilot, later a pilot and eventually Senior Vice President of Flight Operations with Lufthansa.

26
  • 10
    Totally agree. SO was made to stop the fragmentation of knowledge by putting it under one roof. Making the language specific sites weakens that. Commented May 17, 2016 at 19:02
  • 7
    You may be missing another angle to this. Programming and documentation has been localized for decades, and that trend is only going to continue. It makes learning a language more accessible for those who aren't in a position to learn English from where they're at, and it lessens the strain of those who are to learn a new programming language on top of learning the nuances of English.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 19:17
  • 8
    @Makoto If a person is "in a position to" have free access to the World Wide Web and post stuff on StackOverflow, they're in a position to learn enough English to understand and make themselves understood over textual communication, even if trying to speak the language in real time would be difficult. We've even got an entire SE site dedicated to it! Heck, I regularly communicate with a developer in Pakistan of all places, and his textual English is far better than most people would expect, despite the limited resources at his disposal! Commented May 17, 2016 at 19:21
  • 7
    I maintain that this is a very dogmatic and narrow-minded view of how the world actually adapts to programming. To your point, the language was probably originally written in English, but of course a Japanese translation exists. This is how I see the niche of the language-specific Stack Overflow sites; they're there to provide that bit more localization. Just saying, "suck it up, learn English" is a bit...harsh.
    – Makoto
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 19:25
  • 4
    SO's purpose is not to help or force people communicate in English. SO's purpose is to help people with their daily programming problems. Commented May 17, 2016 at 19:25
  • 4
    @MasonWheeler I hope you realize that there are plenty of non-English programming languages. If you really feel that your suggestion is so practical for everyone, I suggest that you start answering questions on the localized SO sites without using Google translate.
    – Laurel
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 19:27
  • 6
    Lets say that X is some person who lives in a non-English speaking country. X have the sincere desire to eventually learn English someday, but he is still unable to communicate properly in English. However, X still has some bug in his program, a stacktrace or coredump in his screen, still have deadlines for delivering his code and still needs help. You can't just tell him "go away, stop everything for 1 or 2 years until you learn English, and just after that, come back here". Commented May 17, 2016 at 19:30
  • 10
    What a load of crap. Of course the English-language board is going to be the most popular (for a few more years, until the Chinese one is far more popular.) Equally, of course you have other language boards. What possible reason would there be to "not" have boards for other languages? It's incredibly bucolic when people from the US and UK think English is important. This is the reason the French hate the English. Everyone in continental countries speaks a couple languages. Rost-bifs can only speak English .. oh, it is over 10 miles away over water. Bizarre.
    – Fattie
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 22:43
  • 5
    @JoeBlow First, what makes you think I only speak English? Second, did you not even read what I wrote? The reason to not have boards for other languages is because English is the Lingua Franca of computer programming. I didn't make it that way; I just know that it's true, and so does every non-native-anglophone language designer who's had any success, as I noted in my post. You're entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts, and this is a simple fact. Commented May 17, 2016 at 23:49
  • 7
    There are plenty of young people who want to learn how to scrape a website, or write a script, or make an app for a phone. We have two choices, we can tell them all to give up on the attempt unless they learn English first, or we can actually provide resources and trust that as they develop their skills they'll decide whether learning English makes sense for them. Personally I'd rather lower the barrier to entry than raise it, but I may be biased as someone living abroad.
    – jmac Staff
    Commented May 18, 2016 at 1:59
  • 5
    @jmac: You make it sound like programming is impossible without stackoverflow. That's going a bit far. I learned about programming from some CS classes, Unix man pages, and stuff on the Internet. Of course, I'm a native English speaker, so there was a ton of stuff I could read. I'm not arguing against language-specific SE sites, but I see them only as a fallback for newbies that can't communicate in English. IDK how well machine-translation works for people trying to make read-only use of the main SO site.. Even if my French was good enough, I don't think I'd spend time on fr.SO. Commented May 18, 2016 at 3:56
  • 5
    @PeterCordes Russian SO is bigger than Server Fault, to give you perspective on how much they are thriving. There are definitely smart programmers out there who don't speak English, and smart programmers who despite speaking English still want to help curate a resource in their native language. Also see this blog article. There is another with more stats, but I can't find it at the moment.
    – jmac Staff
    Commented May 18, 2016 at 5:02
  • 6
    Just because something has come to be doesn't mean it's optimal, or even endorsed by the majority of people it affects. The idea of English being the gateway to being a great programmer was true up until the last decade - but it isn't any longer. The world is changing.
    – user50049
    Commented May 18, 2016 at 5:07
  • 2
    @MasonWheeler I'd be careful assuming what people understand based on what you understand. For instance, many people assume that programmers program in English because of things like for and if ... then -- since this is English, programmers must understand English! Only not really. It's specialized jargon, even in English. I invite you to ask a non-programmer to figure out what a block of relatively simple code with if and for and when, etc. is actually doing. Chances are that they won't be able to, because knowledge of programming -- not English -- is what's needed.
    – jmac Staff
    Commented May 19, 2016 at 2:21
  • 5
    As a native Russian speaker I cannot double this highly enough. Yes, there obviously are lots of non-English-speaking people here, but there are a couple of areas where without learning to at least read English well enough you'll never get above middle programmer or equivalent position. This areas, from what I experienced and/or heard from people I personally know, happen to be IT and science, as well as some geekier hobbies. Which, coincidentally, happens to cover most of Stack Exchange. Commented May 19, 2016 at 14:21
-5

Vote up this answer if you think ...

Of course you should encourage people to use the localized SOs.

"Duh"

What - were concerned the ordinary SO will suffer, will suddenly stop growing, and the vast clutter of answers on every conceivable topic on SO will suddenly dry up?

Give me a break.

Less control always leads to bigger growth. Bizarre behavior- and mind- control schemes ("we'll force them to learn English!") flop.

If there's going to be any behavior modification on SO, what we have to do is stop newbies asking Unity questions.

2
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    I find that while the globalization that the internet brings is bad for a lot of cultures and languages, it is the opposite of bad (aka good) to have as many people focusing their efforts in one language. Until Google makes this challenge obsolete with google translate I vote to force all to use english site, and learn english. It will benefit all of us (one big resource that benefits everyone is better than many small that benefit few of us). Commented May 17, 2016 at 23:20
  • 5
    @LennartRolland allow me to state the obvious: as an English-speaker you benefit from having everything in English, and lose nothing. You already have over 12 million answered questions to be enlightened by, with 8000 more coming in every day. Do you really think the ~300 questions/day that the international sites are getting will somehow destroy the internet? Do you really think the roughly 900 million speakers of PT/RU/ES/JA don't deserve any support in their languages?
    – jmac Staff
    Commented May 19, 2016 at 2:10
-9

Teaching a person to fish ...

Copy their question and paste it into Google Translate just to find out what language it is. Then take your boilerplate comment text (see below) and translate it into their language:

Please translate your question into English. You can use Google Translate, for example to do this. (I don't speak your language, I simply used this translation service so that I could communicate this suggestion).

Comment on their question using this translated comment.

If a conversation ensues, then perhaps bring up the existence of an SO site specific to their language, but please try not to say anything that suggests that that they aren't welcome on SO.

Edit

Apparently that comment didn't translate well in Punjabi, so here is a more minimalistic version that does okay:

Please translate your question into English. You can use Google Translate, for example to do this.

8
  • 1
    I would be very careful with Google Translate. It sometimes is wrong on which language is present, and it also has major troubles with translating linguistically dissimilar languages (which is why I am soliciting translations from people).
    – Laurel
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 19:48
  • @Laurel It has seemed to work for me in the past, but as far as I recall, I have only tried it with Latin-based languages. But yes, I agree that people can be better translators than computers, if they know the language. Commented May 17, 2016 at 19:53
  • 16
    Never trust machine translations. I could write an entire epic post about that, but I will just mention The Backstroke of the West.
    – Geeky Guy
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 19:53
  • 5
    You can get some really amusing translations this way, by the way. For example, I tried translating the boilerplate text to Punjabi, and got this: Please translate your question in English. For example, you can use Google Translate to do it,. (I speak your language, I can communicate, I suggest that the bus used for the translation service). It somehow turned "I don't speak your language" into "I speak your language". This would start for a really interesting conversation.
    – Geeky Guy
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 19:58
  • 2
    @Renan Wow. That's pretty bad. That could explain some very odd "conversations" that I've had with some people on SO. Commented May 17, 2016 at 20:01
  • 5
    @Renan I love to look at stuff like that. Yesterday, I was reading some stuff on M.RU.SO and Google translate gave me this gem: "But on en.SO answers them John Skeet detachment as if connected to the site through the cable into the back of the head, so to answer at the same time faster and better is difficult." I am just wondering what was actually being said; the guy won the mod diamond, so it must be good...
    – Laurel
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 20:13
  • I do like the idea though and I agree with this in spirit. After seeing the shorter boilerplate version, I've left my upvote here.
    – Geeky Guy
    Commented May 17, 2016 at 20:14
  • 7
    Even your simplified version is horribly mangled when translated into Japanese. We should not be encouraging people to use machine translation for their SO posts. Commented May 17, 2016 at 20:15

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