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Related topics:

How do people feel about beginner troubleshooting questions? Note that I'm not asking about beginner Qs, I'm not asking about troubleshooting Qs. I'm asking about the precise combo of these two things.

My perception (possibly flawed) is that they're one of the ultimate plagues on the site. I have this scary vision that the future of SO is going to be engulfed by beginner troubleshooting questions with MCVEs with eager tech support types competing to be the first to provide a routine answer to a routine question that only varies by context and MCVE.

The problems I see with these questions are:

  • They virtually always point to some simple misunderstanding of how the language works combined with a total lack of understanding how to use a debugger (and possibly even what it is). "How do pointers actually work?"
  • Yet they're put in a troubleshooting context, so instead of asking, directly, "How do pointers work?", they end up inadvertently taking all kinds of shape-shifting forms like "Why does my game engine crash? Why does creating a button in QT segfault? What's wrong with my particle simulator?" This makes the questions misleading and useless to future generations of users searching for information.
  • They're almost always somewhat duplicates of 10,000 other questions with 10,000 other MCVEs. They just fly under the radar because of the misleading context and MCVE which makes it look like there's more to the problem than there actually is.
  • FGITW: these thrive on basic, routine troubleshooting questions since they can yield a speedy routine answer: "You're accessing a dangling pointer to memory which was formerly freed from the stack. This is UB." There's little to compete here in terms of providing a good answer since it's so basic and there isn't wiggle room to provide much more than a speedy terse answer.
  • The answers don't genuinely help (educate) the person asking the question. A beginner to C lacking the self-sufficiency to even bother to study how pointers work before asking a question about why his particle simulator isn't working (which basically boils down to this) isn't going to be helped much by receiving such a direct answer as to why his code isn't working. That's just going to lead him to another obstacle resulting from a basic misunderstanding of how the language works. A beginner doesn't get to intermediate level by asking 10,000 trouble-shooting questions. There has to be some self-sufficiency there.

An intermediate/advanced troubleshooting question often isn't bad and can even be great because if an intermediate/advanced developer asks a troubleshooting question related to particle simulation, it's generally going to be related to particle simulation. Put another way, an intermediate/advanced troubleshooting question is actually often relevant to the subject and context of the question, while a beginner-level troubleshooting question almost always isn't.

When a beginner asks a question about troubleshooting particle simulation, it's typically going to have very little if anything to do with particles. It's far more often going to have to do with a beginner-style misunderstanding of the programming language. That actually seriously pollutes the site because now when people search it for particle simulation questions, they end up finding ones where the author didn't even understand how pointers work.

Now if a beginner asks a question outside of troubleshooting like, "How do pointers work?", that's actually probably the best kind of question a total beginner can ask. It'd be considered too broad by the site's standards but I actually consider this far better for the site, and for the beginner, than "What's wrong with my particle simulator (which basically boils down to misunderstanding pointers)?" This broad, non-troubleshooting beginner question actually leaves behind a Q&A we can link to a lot, the answers there can't be routine FGITW answers, they would have to be informative and educational, and that Q&A would address the heart of tens of thousands of duplicated troubleshooting questions which only vary by context and MCVE but are essentially asking this basic question. This cuts to the chase.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on beginner troubleshooting questions, but I don't know what to do about them. What do people feel about this? Imagine a good (by the site's standards) beginner troubleshooting question, like one which is well-worded, provides a good MCVE, etc? Even then I think nothing good can come out of it for just about anyone involved.

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    Sadly, a large number of posters are either selfish deadbeats or totally clueless when it comes to debugging, possibly both. They make no attempt to take even the simplest steps, eg. splitting up their problem/code into simpler steps and/or printing out intermediate values and temp vars. I now look at every beginner question as if it's from a computer-illiterate who is charging a fee to do homework for a computer-incompetent. The vampires have taken over SO, and it's too late to fix it. Dec 10, 2015 at 10:43
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    @MartinJames I always looked a little more kindly/patiently towards the beginner (though that patience might eventually run out). I think it's because I taught CS 101/102 for a brief period long ago. I'm used to the idea of being very patient here. It's interesting -- probably the best answer for over half of those questions is to use a debugger. It's extremely weird but universities often don't teach debugging even to some senior students (something I personally rectified immediately when I taught). I just look at some brilliant people and answers and questions formerly on...
    – user4842163
    Dec 10, 2015 at 11:11
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    @MartinJames ... the site and have this paranoid fear that they'll eventually get drowned out by absolute beginner questions. The most uninspiring image I can imagine for SO is "tech support", and yet that seems to be a very strong possible evolutionary path (if we're not already mostly there).
    – user4842163
    Dec 10, 2015 at 11:11
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    This is what happens when you call them out on no debugging: '@MartinJames Instead of being a complete ass and talkin crap, why don't you actually help me arrive at a solution by clearly instructing me on how to go about the solution instead of talking jibberish? It is funny how you can clearly see I am new to programming (due to the fact of all the negative feedback I got because apparently it is a stupid mistake?!) and yet you go on and mock. It is astonishingly unbelievable how idiotic, stupid and utterly inbecile your moral engagement is. Thanks for your 'help' and time, Mr. James' Dec 10, 2015 at 11:20
  • @MartinJames Ugh, those deserve no sympathy at all.
    – user4842163
    Dec 10, 2015 at 11:21
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    @Ike we've all been students, but I have never formally taught. I do, however, agree that the colleges should give more time in the curriculum to troubleshooting. I suspect that a low priority is given to 'troubleshooting and debugging' because the ignorants see such activity as indicating a failure to teach students how to 'program' well, and so 'debugging' as remedial work resulting from bad tuition, instead of the inherent reality of any software development. Dec 10, 2015 at 11:27
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    @MartinJames That and there's a lot of emphasis on hand-tracing code in the early steps. A debugger might be seen as "cheating". But I saw it like, "cheat all you want! You want to learn recursion? Best way is to trace through your code with a debugger. Use all the tools necessary to accelerate that learning process, and experiment all you like."
    – user4842163
    Dec 10, 2015 at 11:29
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    It's not like troubleshooting skills in general are not useful outside software development. I'm sure that many of the the students would like to be able to fix their decrepit bangers themselves instead of calling a garage, so saving them cash they could spend on beer:) Dec 10, 2015 at 11:30
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    If I taught formally at a uni, I woud get them past 'Hello world' and then move straight to troubleshooting - debugging, the debugger and logger, the importance of taking notes of everything that happens and in what order, how making bugs worse can be a good thing etc. etc. Dec 10, 2015 at 11:34
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    It would be better if there was not such a vast gulf between what politicians etc. think of as 'software development' and reality. NO, not just Donald Trump:) Here in the UK, we get ths: 'We want millions more people across Britain to start coding this year. It's so much easier than you think'. They're right - coding IS easy compared with organizing data and debugging, but they don't even know that they are right or why! Dec 10, 2015 at 11:46
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    ATM, I'm dreaming of a 'beginner island' with sharks, razor-wire and searchlight/machine-gun towers. Dec 10, 2015 at 13:08
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    My first thought was this: If the question contains a real MCVE (and not just something that looks like it, but is in fact not minimal) the OP has clearly done some debugging already and the question is likely to be useful. If there is no real MCVE, vote to close. My second thought is: In practice it might be to hard to say what is a "real" MCVE and not, so my comment might be rather useless.
    – Anders
    Dec 10, 2015 at 14:45
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    @Anders This might be somewhat tag/language-specific but in the tags I look in like C and C++, the MCVE tends to come naturally to the absolute beginner (the ones really at the CS 101 level), since their programs are so simple and might fit on a page or two that they're practically MCVEs naturally without any work being done to make them so.
    – user4842163
    Dec 10, 2015 at 14:52
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    Now if a beginner asks a question outside of troubleshooting like, "How do pointers work?", that's actually probably the best kind of question a total beginner can ask. It is a great question for a beginner to ask. Just not on SO. Luckily, there are other sites on the internet. Some would even welcome questions like that. Dec 10, 2015 at 16:05

2 Answers 2

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Such questions, even if answered, are unlikely to be useful to anyone else. So I down vote them.

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    It really is as simple as that. Poor questions are to be downvoted and then you move along. Labeling them "the ultimate plagues on the site" doesn't change a thing.
    – Gimby
    Dec 10, 2015 at 15:52
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    @Gimby The awkwardness there is that I'm not clear if they are against the site's encouraged questions. The question might have an MCVE, it might be well-worded, the author might express a genuine and sincere attempt at searching google for answers and failing, etc. It's just coming from someone at such an early stage that they don't have the first clue about how to debug their code. If there was no conflict there for me where I absolutely knew I could just down-vote or even vote to close a question for being "too basic" (perhaps even with such an option for closing), it would be easier.
    – user4842163
    Dec 10, 2015 at 16:13
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    @Gimby The other awkwardness is that there is still a big portion of people jumping to answer such questions as quickly as possible, since they're so basic and easy to answer. A single down-vote can't counter a mob of rapid answerers, unless it's a close vote. But I do feel for the beginners by doing anything like this too.
    – user4842163
    Dec 10, 2015 at 16:15
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    40 questions a day get a deserved treatment, yay! (assuming of course that there's nobody around to "restore balance")
    – gnat
    Dec 10, 2015 at 16:18
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    @Ike s/rapid/rabid/
    – user4639281
    Dec 10, 2015 at 17:55
  • Sometimes it is nice to help just that one person, even if they haven't learned how to accept an answer or upvote. Occasionally dup linking does make these questions (or at least the answers) useful. Dec 11, 2015 at 14:58
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    This is the right answer. Part of the SO experience IMHO is the initiation - trial by fire. Learn how to ask good questions! I remember when I started out as a developer, a senior dev told me to make sure I did my homework before asking a question here. I drafted a few questions for him and he would say things like, "Don't ask that, you will get flayed on StackOverflow." There is good reason for that. Down voting is appropriate for beginners. If they have the stuff of a developer, they will learn from that, move on, and come back for real help. Dec 11, 2015 at 15:10
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    Every guy here firing at beginners and their questions should think again. No one was born a great programmer. On a parallel site, you (top programmer) ask about some subject X in which you are a beginner and want to learn, and the top subject X experts tear your question down, downvote it, close it, insult in comments or make fun of you (very common). I've had my share of this when I started on this site and didn't like it. That didn't help me either, as David Vogel says (reminds me of the father that hit his son everyday so he could stand the roughness of ice hockey and be a better player)
    – chiapa
    Dec 11, 2015 at 17:19
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    @Chiapas You so not understand the purpose of this site. It is not a site for beginners. It is for professional and enthusiast programmers. Questions from beginners are tolerated only if they conform to the standards we hold the non beginners to. You also do not understand the purpose of down votes and close votes.
    – Raedwald
    Dec 11, 2015 at 18:09
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    @chiapa, if someone refuses to read 4 or 5 books as well as paying for training (or university degree in comp sci) before expecting professional programmer to help them for free - they should not expect to get a good reception. Dec 12, 2015 at 19:42
  • and vote to close them if you can do that!
    – user177800
    Dec 13, 2015 at 0:17
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    @chiapa - I was a beginner before there was the internets, I started teaching myself in 1980/1981 with assembly and BASIC on 6502 based machines. There was no tutors/mentors in my rural backwater town. I used magazines and reverse engineered to learn what I needed. These are entitled brats if they think the world owes them something. So you are wrong, those of us that taught ourselves and built the world you think you are entitled to were born great.
    – user177800
    Dec 13, 2015 at 0:20
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    @chiapa I come from a similar background and period as Jarrod so self-sufficiency was key, but I also taught CS 101/102 for a period and so I actually have a soft spot for even the most helpless beginners. Yet I know what kind of questions beginners repeatedly ask, and they're the same questions, the same things they trip on over and over and over. And that was just among classes of ~30 students. If we multiply that by the size of the internet, the amount of duplicated issues and questions becomes unmanageable. It's where I think this site isn't a proper platform...
    – user4842163
    Dec 13, 2015 at 13:08
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    @chiapa ... for people who are desperately in need of more study and practice before they can even begin to put their questions into a proper context. The uber beginner types I'm thinking about need mentoring, back and forth exchanges, practice, experimentation, and study above all. They can't properly be guided in a sheer troubleshooting, "What's wrong with my code?" context. I'd love to help beginners (I see it as polishing my teaching skills), but this isn't a very good teaching/hand-holding platform for the absolute beginner.
    – user4842163
    Dec 13, 2015 at 13:09
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    @Chiapas No, SO does not need to "come down" to the level of complete beginners. Because this is not a site for beginners. It seems you are not willing to learn the purpose of this site. It seems you have an entitlement problem: you think skilled strangers should spend their time to help you, for free, in a forum you did not create, and for them to conform to your desires, rather than for you to conform to the standards of that forum.
    – Raedwald
    Dec 14, 2015 at 9:38
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I don't think it's worth answering them, but I think their existence does something useful: I can't count the number of times I've copy & pasted a specific error message into google, clicked on the SO result, and gotten better search terms from a question that's closed or marked as a duplicate. Questions flagged as dupes or closed with a single grumpy comment are doing something valuable - they're making it likely that people who google the exact text of an error will get a result that matches and be pointed in a direction that'll find them an answer.

I can see why it'd be frustrating if you use SO a lot and in a narrow area of expertise, and I don't think writing a long answer is worthwhile. As a mostly-a-sysadmin visitor, though, I spend a lot of time reading error logs from languages I've never written a line in. For me, the stockpile of dumb questions and curt responses with useful keywords in are a treasure trove! They let me match up error output with the root cause - if I'm going "okay, I have a stack trace, is this a network problem or disk problem or actually just bad Java", this type of content is exactly what makes Stack Overflow more useful as a starting point than Java 101.

So - thank you, downvoters and question flaggers and comment-writers. I've been trying to join in a bit recently, and it makes me really appreciate the hard work that goes into keeping this place awesome.

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    I've been thinking the problem is with MCVE questions, except as pointed out, the problem is not really "MCVE". The questions which tend to be disposable and so narrowly-tuned to only benefit the author of the question while often illustrating the same beginner tripwire issue over and over are "SVEs" (short, verifiable examples). "Here's my entire code, it's short, and it's not right -- what's wrong?" A true MCVE would probably be extracted from the specific domain -- instead of a question in the context of a short console puzzle game, it'd isolate the problem to a pure language context.
    – user4842163
    Dec 13, 2015 at 4:44
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    That would also make it far more obvious when it's a duplicate. Maybe the issue is just the "minimal" part of "MCVE" not taken seriously enough, "short" and "minimal" not being the same thing ("minimal" would often imply "general").
    – user4842163
    Dec 13, 2015 at 4:45
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    I can see what you're saying, but I think isolating the problem to a pure language context both takes a lot of skill (almost every time I start writing a question for SO, I end up answering it myself before I'm happy with the question!) and also makes the question and answer less easy to find for newbies who don't know the keywords. People who don't know what a null pointer exception or an undefined object will be googling the symptoms, not the root cause, so examples of the symptoms are useful to a lot of users!
    – nikobelia
    Dec 13, 2015 at 16:31
  • Judging from your Q&As and the 1/6 Q/A ratio and the nature of your well-worded questions, you already seem to be well in the proficient stage of being self-sufficient and being able to answer the majority of your questions. In general the vast, vast majority of questions on the site will be coming from absolute beginners, since they have the vast majority of questions. My concern is only with those types that want us to hold their hand (though I actually have nothing against them, just think this site is the worst platform for mentoring).
    – user4842163
    Dec 13, 2015 at 16:44
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    I taught CS 101/102 for a brief period in my life and kind of experienced first-hand all the various types of questions that absolute beginners might ask -- they're basically the same duplicated issues over and over until the end of time. I'm worried such questions will engulf the site eventually with more and more traffic, and drown out all the good stuff on here. Main thing is that this site is supposed to be for people who love to code -- not those forced to code and just want quick answers for their assignment. It's very obvious to tell the two apart at a glance.
    – user4842163
    Dec 13, 2015 at 16:46
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    Thanks! Yeah, I'd definitely agree it's not a good platform for mentoring - and I think the right answer to this question is the one above saying "downvote them". Something that might not be obvious to active users who know a few tags and know them well is that the existence of downvoted, closed questions with irrelevant code examples does something valuable: comments on them saying "go google (PHP specific name for a concept I vaguely knew from elsewhere)" have let me go "oh, right, that's what's going on here" and find somewhere to start troubleshooting a framework I didn't know at all.
    – nikobelia
    Dec 13, 2015 at 17:06
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    Still, like you say, Stack Overflow's for people who love to code... it shouldn't be encouraging developers to do work that mostly benefits sysadmins instead of people with long-term expertise in a language. From your comments and the related links up top, I can see your point a lot better now.
    – nikobelia
    Dec 13, 2015 at 17:09

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