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When a question posted on SO is part of an open programming contest with a specific contest deadline (HackerRank/TopCoder/CodeChef/high-school math or programming challenges with deadlines/ etc.), it looks like the consensus of SO users is they want to at minimum be notified of that on the question, so they have the option of not answering until the contest closes, for multiple self-evident reasons.

(EDIT: this suggestion would not apply to ongoing challenges (like Project Euler) with no deadline, no prizes, no leaderboard, no official winners.)

Nobody whatsoever has objected to the idea of answering or discussing after the contest closes. Most contests close in 24/48 hours, some close sooner (e.g. 2-8 hours), some close beyond a week out.

Would an 'Embargo until contest closes at (date/time)' flag be a good solution for this? - would prevent (or at least very strongly discourage) answering before that date & time - would alert users very visibly to the fact that the question was part of an active contest, and state its end date&time. would link to the contest question or rules. - users who frequently posted requesting help on open coding contests would become very visible, noting in particular that some contest rules ban outside assistance (/some don't).

I read through the entire discussion Comments that a problem is part of a live contest get removed? and I can't see anyone advance one single valid reason against. Moreover this information is too important and prominent to leave to comments exchanges which might not be read, and the whims of individual moderators deleting arbitrarily. It would also be useful to reach consensus that it is always constructive to inform other users a question is part of an open contest - hence flagging such comments as unconstructive is itself flag-abuse.

@George Stocker claimed: "1) Questions that are not on the front page have a much lower answer rate than questions that are. 2) A few days is enough time to render the question almost invisible to others."

But both of those would be solved by embargoing the question until the contest end date&time. So they aren't valid objections. After that time the question would appear and be answerable just like any other open question (although the 'Embargoed until...' would still appear, so people knew what contest it had been part of). (The current manual workaround would be to close, with a note that it'll be reopened at that time)

Do we need an 'Embargoed until contest closes at (date/time)' flag then? Or if you don't like the idea that it is a flag, an advisory notice displayed prominently above the question (but not an embargo)?

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    My feature-request would just be to not be so quick to delete comments discouraging the answering of such questions..
    – OGHaza
    Apr 29, 2014 at 9:52
  • I have to say I don't like this feature. It makes perfect sense to me that these questions are left open and answerable, we just need to be able to communicate the source via comments
    – Niklas B.
    Apr 29, 2014 at 17:13
  • @Niklas B: but you're precisely the guy who was complaining so loudly that the mods arbitrarily deleted such comments - and the mod behavior in that thread illustrates that they have arbitrarily different opinions on whether posting such comment is 'constructive' or not, and they don't seem at all bothered about figuring out a standard, consistent policy. So would you please post something more constructive here?
    – smci
    Apr 29, 2014 at 18:49
  • @smci Yes, and I also specifically mentioned that I understand that we need to keep these questions on the site and open. My post was just about the handling of such comments. Please don't turn my words around like that, I think you are interpreting too much into them
    – Niklas B.
    Apr 29, 2014 at 19:00
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    @Niklas B: there is a chicken-and-egg. If we could have 100% confidence that mods would leave such comments in-place, then perhaps. But since we don't, as that thread revealed, and since the mods themselves are confused on whether such comment is allowed, we don't.
    – smci
    Apr 29, 2014 at 19:07
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    It strikes me that the posters may not have permission to copy the contest problem descriptions and release it under CC BY-SA.
    – Ben Voigt
    Jun 9, 2014 at 22:58
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    I would prefer a tag to comments if the expiry of the embargo would automatically make the question turn into a new question for display purposes. Jun 10, 2014 at 2:46
  • ^^ Ben, they're not necessarily 'copying' the question, generally a summary and a link should be ok, but if they copy wholesale and don't have the right, that's a separate custom-flagging grounds. ^ Patricia: I don't know what you mean by 'turn into a new question'. The question goes and sits in a pool until the embargo ends. The rest is implementation details.
    – smci
    Jun 10, 2014 at 5:44
  • I'm generally in favour of this suggestion, but there is a bit of ambiguity for me about when answering contest questions is over the line and what exactly constitutes a contest. For example, if it's a contest with a cash prize or other IRL benefits I wouldn't answer it, but if would just be helping someone win internet points/achievements unlocked on a site like Project Euler, I don't really see a big problem with it.
    – samgak
    Jun 22, 2015 at 6:26
  • @samgak: I suggest anything which would get a contestant disqualified and/or violates the rules or spirit of the rules, for a competition with a deadline and list of winners/prizes. ('embargoed until <close date>' is self-evidently not applicable if there is no close date!) Whereas I agree this would not apply to ongoing challenges (like Project Euler) with no deadline, no prizes, no leaderboard, no official winners.
    – smci
    Jun 22, 2015 at 20:34

2 Answers 2

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There is a world of difference between commenting on a question and suggesting users not answer a question until after a specific date because it is part of a contest and prohibiting answering questions until that date.

A comment is merely a suggestion by the community to say "Hey, this question is part of a contest, if you don't want to give someone an unfair advantage, don't answer it". However, a new feature to actively prevent answering is actually no longer a community effort and is Stack Exchange actively enforcing rules and preventing cheating in another contest.

I think the general feedback from the post you linked says it all, a properly worded comment is enough to handle this. Let's not go overboard because frankly if someone is going to cheat on a contest, they are going to cheat on a contest. If it isn't asking on a Stack Exchange site, they will ask somewhere else. The onus on the organizer of the contest to make sure no one is cheating, so why should SE waste its own time and resources in a fruitless effort to prevent cheating on a contest?

And Bill's answer to your linked question seems to say that even the comment might be discouraged. I don't necessarily agree with him there as I don't see how a single properly worded comment can be that much of an issue, but this feature request goes about a thousand miles past a comment and gets beyond just discouraging and actively blocking good on-topic questions.

Personally, I equate this to homework, which is another topic where someone asking is question might be getting an unfair advantage. We make no effort to disqualify questions just because they are homework, but more often than not, homework questions can be closed and/or downvoted for other reasons, usually because someone only decided to copy and paste the assignment and asked someone to answer it. So if there is a lack of effort in the question, it needs to be closed and/or downvoted, but if it is a good on-topic question, I fail to see the problem. Just comment and suggest that people not answer it and then move on.

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  • "I think the general feedback from the post you linked says it all, a properly worded comment is enough to handle this" - absolutely not, because we have some moderators telling us they arbitrarily consider such a comment to be 'unconstructive', and would sustain deleting it. To repeat myself, this should not be left to the whims of moderators.
    – smci
    Apr 29, 2014 at 9:33
  • Then would you support a new flag suggesting users not answer a question until after a contest-related embargo date? If not, what sort of flag, or else message, would you support? Are we all agreed that leaving this stuff to the vagaries of a comment thread which probably wouldn't be very visible, and might get deleted, as currently, is not ok? Then what's your enhance suggestion?
    – smci
    Apr 29, 2014 at 9:34
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    "And Bill's answer to your linked question seems to say that even the comment might be discouraged" No, he doesn't. He emphatically says the opposite: "Comments pointing out the source of the problem and that it's from a live contest, and giving the end date&time, would be fine He only draws the line at asking people to not answer a question on SO.
    – smci
    Apr 29, 2014 at 9:40
  • @smci We don't need a flag to suggest anything to the community. Flags don't suggest anything to the community, they go to the moderators for handling, so if your issue is with some mods deleting the comment, then they are going to do the same with a flag. Apr 29, 2014 at 9:44
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    @smci ultimately, I'm suggesting we do absolutely nothing. I fail to see why this is a problem that Stack Exchange needs to police. We're not the internet programming cops, so we shouldn't have to worry whether a question is for a contest or not. Some people might not care, and want to answer the question, and some will care and won't. Apr 29, 2014 at 9:47
  • @smci Fancy language aside (i.e. embargoing), you are suggesting closing questions that are part of a contest, then reopening them when the contest is over. The close system wasn't designed for this, so we don't need to add any additional workload on to anyone. Who would manage this and ensure questions get closed and reopend. How many users would be needed to temporarily close the question, what if it doesn't get closed in time? Apr 29, 2014 at 9:48
  • ^^^^^ either way, we need basic clarity on groundrules and process for such cases. That discussion illustrates the current lack of. If some mods uphold 99% of open contest questions, versus some find 99% of them unconstructive, then that numerical data alone would illustrate a lack of clarity. But without a separate flag-type, this becomes near-impossible to determine.
    – smci
    Apr 29, 2014 at 9:54
  • @smci Read up on the homework tag (add check out some of the other linked questions). This is virtually the same issue. If you want to establish a consensus for handling them, then ask that question first. Ultimately that is what happened with the homework tag. There was a lot of back and forth discussion and ultimately the community decided the appropriate handling was to kill the tag and stop worrying if a question was homework or not. Apr 29, 2014 at 10:15
  • No it's not the same as homework. Please don't hijack the discussion with that nonsense. And don't assume I don't know the long tortured history of the homework tag. Homework came to be a loosely-applied diss-tag used for pejorative or flaming purposes, and to justify all sorts of flaming and obnoxious pile-on herd behavior, regardless of whether that was relevant to the question. Similar to lmgtfy. This is a totally different issue, so stop confusing them. It's 100% verifiable, and it has 100% definite timelines, and each of us can easily determine when it applies or not. End of story.
    – smci
    Apr 29, 2014 at 10:48
  • ^^^^^ No, it's not closing, again that's offtopic. Embargoing would be embargoing. Huge differences a) if the tag is upheld, it automatically gets marked to be reopened at the right date&time, without human intervention, b) wouldn't require moderators to discuss whether to reopen c) Who would administer that? A script. d) Who would manage this and ensure questions get closed and reopened? A script. How does anything get managed on SO? e) As to arguing about the impossibility of writing a script on a website with 500k users, I roll my eyeballs.
    – smci
    Apr 29, 2014 at 11:56
  • f) How many (flags) would be needed to embargo a question? Well tell me how many flags are currently needed to get action taken on SO? Probably more than one, and whatever number SO typically uses for flags should be reasonable. That's missing the major point, that moderator behavior should be more consistent on this,
    – smci
    Apr 29, 2014 at 12:03
  • g) (You deleted your comment, but it essentially asked/argued what if mods didn't get to adjudicating the flag quick enough?) If the embargo flag gets upheld, then obviously the script should hide the answers until the embargo ends. Let us not let the perfect be the enemy of the good. You can think up heaps of implementation questions/objections. If you agree in principle and only object on procedural grounds, that's an implementation discussion and more constructive.
    – smci
    Apr 29, 2014 at 12:08
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    When the embargo ends, the question should re-appear as a new question, so that it will be visible then. Jun 10, 2014 at 0:00
  • @Patricia: if it appears as a new question (rather than automatically being reopened), then it would get subject to the close/deletionist whims of moderators twice.
    – smci
    Jul 9, 2014 at 5:09
  • @smci I see my comment was not very clear. I did not mean that it should be a truly new question, but that, on automatic reopen, it should get the same prominence as a new question. Jul 9, 2014 at 7:31
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As someone who sometimes spends a lot of time and effort answering questions on SO, I would like to see this embargo tag happen. There's no downside.

It costs SO users and moderators virtually zero effort, and the only honest people it could possibly harm are those who happen to be facing a problem that corresponds closely to a problem from a current competition. How often will that happen, really?

With Patricia Shanahan's suggestion that embargoed questions should automatically behave like just-asked questions (e.g. appear on the front page) as soon as their embargo period lapses, we have a perfect solution. This way people who inadvertently post a question from a live competition aren't punished. They don't even have to remember to ask the question again later -- all they have to do is wait a few days.

I've seen two main counterarguments, and I don't think either of them hold water:

  • "It's not our job to enforce someone else's rules." As in many other cases, those rules exist because their absence would lead to dissatisfaction for lots of honest people. Maybe it's not our job to uphold them, but since the cost of upholding them is so incredibly low, and the benefit (to programming competitions and the honest programmers who participate in them) so large, how can we justify not doing so? Let's see how that principle scales up: "I could change some entries in a config file, and poverty would disappear from the Earth. But it's not my job."
  • The idea that SO is somehow unfairly constrained by not being allowed to answer these questions. This is ludicrous. At what point did "The right to answer questions" acquire moral force sufficient to displace other concerns like "basic honesty"? Are there people out there who are running so low on questions to answer that delaying their access to these live-competition questions threatens their quality of life? Maybe someone needs to show those people the F5 key.

[EDIT]

Some examples from the last 3 days

There's a legitimate question about how often this happens. I mostly participate on the algorithms tag, which is probably where most of the programming competition questions get posted.

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    There is a downside: developer effort and added complexity for a feature that would rarely be used. Jul 8, 2014 at 19:49
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    @ThisSuitIsBlackNot: I would use it most days, and I think the developer effort would not be too big, since the code for "marking" questions (e.g. as duplicates) already exists. Jul 8, 2014 at 19:52
  • Are that many questions really asked during live contests? If so, adding several examples to your post might bolster your argument. (Of course, I personally think the issue can be addressed just fine with comments, so regardless of the quantity of questions, I don't think a new feature is necessary; others may feel differently, though.) Jul 8, 2014 at 20:02
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    @ThisSuitIsBlackNot: Well, I mostly answer algorithms questions, which are probably the most popular kind for programming competitions. I'll try adding some recent examples. I also think that comments are probably enough, and my default position is to live and let live (in fact I'd be happier with a much less restrictive set of rules for SO), but I'm a stickler when it comes to things I see as dishonest behaviour. Jul 8, 2014 at 20:07
  • "No downside"? There is a possibility of false positives (not actually a contest, flexible contest rules), there is the added burden placed on the community to have to police these cases (who will be tasked with determining if an embargo is appropriate? What if the request to embargo was fraudulent?), there is the cost of implementation (code and policy, what qualifies for this?), etc. All to effectively make a moral judgement on cheating, as there is no legal requirement here. That moral call is up to the person cheating, not us, and they'll take their question elsewhere anyway.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Jan 26, 2017 at 10:50
  • @MartijnPieters: I see no additional risk of a false positive, since anyone who wanted to shut down a question for purely malicious reasons could already do so using one of the existing avenues (close as dupe, etc.). Policing will be, like everything at this site, voluntary; specifically, I think that moderators would not see an increase in workload due to maliciousness for the reason I gave above. And if we all concerned ourselves only with what is legally required, I think you would agree that the world would be worse off. Jan 26, 2017 at 11:21
  • @j_random_hacker: Contests have a lot more riding on them sometimes. Be prepared for someone to make it a legal issue. There probably won't be a merit in it, but still. And code contest rules vary widely per site, there is no one-embargo-size-fits-all option here. What if using the internet as a reference is specifically allowed? Where does asking a question on SO cross the line, when the line is that vague? Rules allowing for some help are commonplace but open to debate as to what is too much, etc.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Jan 26, 2017 at 11:27
  • @MartijnPieters: I agree that contests can have a lot more riding on them (cash prizes, jobs, etc.), but though IANAL, I don't yet see how deciding not to help a contest participant could open SO to legal issues. (OTOH, I can see a strong case for why our currently officially sanctioned policy of helping contest participants could do so -- if the competition and its rules are sufficiently well known.) Yes, the line is a bit vague, and I would never try to embargo a question from a competition that explicitly allows asking for help (though I'd likely not personally answer it). Jan 26, 2017 at 11:39
  • The bottom line is that we don't police third party policies. For legal requirements, like the DMCA, there is a dedicated process that goes outside of the community. Everything else is off the table. Thats because we can never can know what answers are used for. We just don't have all the facts to make such calls. The case of Ross Ulbricht (Dread Pirate Roberts of the Silk Road dark web site) is a case in point; his questions on SO were perfectly legal, his intentions were not. When you implement an embargo feature, you cross that line.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Jan 26, 2017 at 11:52
  • @MartijnPieters: I don't think that, in general, embargoing a question crosses a line that shutting down a question does not; do you agree? When it comes to the reason for doing either of these things, I can see a distinction between reasons that originate inside vs. outside SO, and I certainly think we have no legal obligation to other sites to enforce their rules, but (and this is where I think we disagree) I think that it's legitimate for SO users and moderators to decide of their own accord on a policy of restricting questions that are probably live competition questions. Jan 26, 2017 at 12:16
  • @MartijnPieters: I also don't yet understand the special importance of having all the facts in deciding whether or not to embargo a question that's possibly a live competition question: Why would this be different than any other SO moderator or community decision on whether or not to restrict (shut down or embargo) a question, which also does not have all the facts, and from which we assume no legal consequences will follow? Jan 26, 2017 at 12:19
  • @j_random_hacker: we close a question for quality control reasons, not moral or other external motivations. Not having all the facts: If someone claims that a question covers an existing competition, we can't always verify this as competition questions may be kept confidential, or the question may not obviously be asking about the competition. Sometimes competitions re-use questions; if the OP is claiming that they are not part of the competition but found the problem set elsewhere, we can't verify the veracity of that claim. Etc.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Jan 26, 2017 at 15:01
  • @MartijnPieters: "we close a question for quality control reasons, not moral or other external motivations" -- that's current policy, but what I'm trying to say is that there is no compelling reason why it must remain so. I agree that claims are difficult to verify, but as I said in my post, I think the damage done by a "false positive" embargoing is tiny (especially if Patricia Shanahan's suggestion is used) and thus a reasonable tradeoff. Still, if a majority of SOers simply don't want to change this policy (as it seems is the case), then so be it. Jan 26, 2017 at 15:47

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