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First Things First: This Thread is Not a Duplicate of an Open Thread

Do not mark this thread as a duplicate of any of the following three threads, because it is a substantially different proposal based on a fundamentally different premise:

Those three threads suggested splitting Stack Overflow based on the criteria of reputation or skill level, but they failed to address the real problem, because reputation and skill level are mostly orthogonal to whether questions fit Stack Overflow's mission. There may be one or two more that I've missed, but by and large I've done my research on existing threads.

The following closed thread proposes splitting Stack Overflow based on the type of question content (the same basis upon which all Stack Exchange sites are divided), and it was incorrectly marked as a duplicate of those three and closed:

Why don't we have an SE site for programming help vampires?

This thread IS essentially a duplicate of that one, but it is to my knowledge the only open one of its kind. I created it by following the advice given in the close notice:

This question has been asked before and already has an answer. If those answers do not fully address your question, please ask a new question.

just.another.programmer's thread was closed before its proposal could be seriously discussed by the site at large, but the comment thread for that post is a must-read. In an attempt to reopen wider discussion on the matter and avoid closure this time, I will do my best to argue a more comprehensive case. Therefore, I ask that anyone who considers this "tl;dr" keep in mind that the length was in response to just.another.programmer's more concise version being closed.

Scale and Bad Questions are Indeed a Concern

The general feeling among experienced Stack Overflow members seems to be that the system has become broken. There are two widely acknowledged reasons:

  1. The scale has vastly increased, and questions pour in faster than anyone can answer them.

  2. The apparent quality of questions has declined. People apparently like grumbling about this, as evidenced by the half a thousand upvotes on the question and answer (compare and contrast to suggested solutions being downvoted into oblivion and closed).

There are also several apparent reasons for the decline in question quality:

  1. Increased exposure has attracted a larger number of users. Even if the new users have the same general makeup/distribution as in the past, this still leads to a much higher absolute number of bad questions.

  2. The proportion of bad questions may have even increased, due to newer users being an unwashed barbarian horde (or maybe that's just an illusion due to the other factors causing veteran burnout and stress).

  3. Part of this is because the existing database of good answered questions has raised the bar for new ones: The most widely applicable good questions have already been asked and answered for most languages/technologies/etc. As a result, many new questions which would otherwise be good are actually duplicates (or apparent duplicates) of old answered questions.

All of these concerns are likely valid, but the scale issue in particular is the most troublesome, because it would strain any programming help site of any purpose or mission. It would be really nice if it became "some other programming site's problem" though, wouldn't it? To a large extent it could though, if we resolved the other underlying issue, an "elephant in the room" which is not being seriously discussed beyond a misleading "caretakers, help vampires, rep whores, apathetic" breakdown meme:

Two Distinct Communities are Fighting Over Stack Overflow

Someone asked an interesting question a few days ago: Why do people actually go to other Q&A communities for coding questions other than StackOverflow?

It's interesting for the following reason: The Stack Exchange format is far better than Usenet or forums at resolving almost any kind of question, due to its better ability to stay on topic and dodge the N^2 complexity implications of two-way conversations. A new user with no idea about Stack Overflow's mission would indeed wonder, "Why the heck WOULDN'T I use Stack Overflow for everything?"

However, Servy wrote the correct answer: Stack Overflow has a particular mission that dramatically limits the scope of site-relevant questions. coding_hero's answer was also insightful: As a consequence of that mission, Stack Overflow veterans are hostile to anything that falls outside of that specific mission.

As I understand it, Stack Overflow's mission is to serve as a searchable repository of unique but widely applicable design questions or questions about the nuances of a language, API, or technology. The "caretakers" of the meme hold this mission very dear, and they see it as their sworn duty to identify questions outside this mission and "kill them with fire." On a relative scale, this could be considered the "cathedral" mentality.

However, most actually treat Stack Overflow like a "coworkers' help desk," where coworkers just exchange advice on any programming-related issue that's too specific for Programmers. On a relative scale, this could be considered the "bazaar" mentality. A lot of veterans will argue, "Stack Overflow isn't meant for that, so take your crap elsewhere," but the truth is the Stack Exchange format is quite versatile and still more conducive to these kind of questions than any alternative.

It may be appropriate to categorize the least effortful of these users as "help vampires," but it's a term that seems to be applied overly broadly. For instance, there are a lot of borderline cases where the user's question may or may not be applicable to other people in the futureMaybe they're trying to debug a logic error, but they're stuck and require a fresh pair of eyes. The site is becoming increasingly skeptical of debugging questions for instance, and separating the good ones from the bad ones can be highly subjective.

These users who actually provide assistance to "help vampires" real and imagined are often derided as "rep whores," but the charges are unfortunate: The accused "rep whores" are often low-rep users answering the only questions they can. Many just want to "give back" so they can avoid feeling like "help vampires" themselves. (I sometimes feel this way: I ask questions that I believe to be good and within Stack Overflow's mission, but as a non-senior-level programmer with narrow experience, I feel too impotent to answer any of the other good questions, so my question-to-answer ratio is quite poor.) Others are only trying to scrounge up enough points to let them fully participate on the site. Somewhat hypocritically, the posters calling them "rep whores" are generally veteran users who amassed tens or even hundreds of thousands of rep points by answering similar softball questions back when they were new/unique...and who continually receive an income of upvotes on their old answers, which they spend on curbstomping the "rep whores." Meanwhile, neither camp usually has the expertise to answer the body of unanswered old questions or "good new questions," partially because they're hard to find and even harder to answer.

Moderation Alone Cannot Solve the Conflict

The competing mentalities are causing a lot of friction: On the one hand, a lot of potentially good and answerable questions could be getting closed too easily for prejudicial reasons (especially the ones wrongly perceived as duplicates). On the other hand, there are so many bad questions and questions outside of Stack Overflow's scope that moderators want/need even more powerful tools to deal with them.

The growing scale of Stack Overflow is increasingly requiring more "broad brush" moderation and snap judgments just to handle the deluge of questions, but this invites an escalating conflict where battle lines are being drawn between increasingly polarized participants: When our only options are to "leave in place, close, or delete," our only options are to enrage the purists or screw the people who genuinely need help (particularly people who post the debugging-style questions).

Many of the "caretakers" believe the solution is simply to make "help vampires" and "rep whores" feel so unwelcome on Stack Overflow they leave the Stack Exchange network entirely. These "go team, rah-rah" arguments get a lot of upvotes, but the real problem is there is no alternative help site that works as well for them as Stack Overflow does. If you're on the cynical side of the scale, you might argue, "Help vampires and rep whores are too filthy to deserve ANY site," but the truth is that until you give them one, they WILL continue to use and abuse this one. They'll get downvoted and thread-closed, and they'll be unhappy about, but they'll keep trying and fueling the escalating conflict over the "same land," because they don't see an alternative.

Give the "Troubleshooters" Their Own Community to Make Moderation More Effective

A better solution is to actually give these bad, "bad," and borderline questions a place to go, beyond the sight of those who hate them, but within reach of the people who just want to exchange help when they can. For Pete's sake, this isn't a conflict over physical land where there's natural scarcity: This is the Internet, and Stack Exchange already has a ton of purpose-specific sites. What's one more, especially when the existence of two distinct communities on Stack Overflow is so obvious there's a meme for it?

If you're one of the cynical types, please take Denis's comment from the other thread to heart: "Can we please have a ghetto where we can dump our crap?" This would also completely solve the problem with borderline threads and "threads we closed but which could be reopened under the right circumstances." Just MOVE them to the more-appropriate (and prominently advertised) site, and you won't have to deal with a huge close queue or hand-wringing over anything.

If Code Review didn't have such a narrow purpose itself, it could have been a good dumping ground for the borderline debugging questions and non-unique newbie questions...but it's not, because it does have its own purpose, and the bad questions in particular would be just as unwelcome there as they are here. Instead, there seem to be two real solutions, one suggested by just.another.programmer and the other suggested by BoltClock:

  1. Create a new bazaar-like Stack Exchange site meant for programming help that's too specific for Programmers but too "help-desky" for Stack Overflow or Code Review. Prominently advertise it on Stack Overflow's question submission page. Moderators could then feel free to capriciously move huge numbers of bad/borderline questions to that site with little to no resistance, because the question will still exist somewhere in answerable form (and the best ones can always be moved back).

  2. Assume the "help vampires" will always know only about Stack Overflow (the Google of programming), so accept inevitability, let it become a cess pool, and move the good questions to programmingquestionsthatactuallymatter.stackexchange.com, a new cathedral-like site (working name only ;)). Really, this would be a matter of moving all existing questions there, then gradually removing the unwelcome ones back to Stack Overflow.

Exclusively moderation-focused suggestions involving more closures and noob curbstomping may be more cathartic for some, but I believe anything less than splitting Stack Overflow into distinct cathedral and bazaar communities is just a band-aid. I submit this in the hope that serious well-reasoned arguments will follow regarding whether 1. or 2. is the more appropriate option for separating two classes of questions that clearly don't belong on the same site.

Your Input?

If you believe a site split is warranted, which direction would you prefer among the two above? If a site split is a bad idea, why is it a bad idea? Can you cite a reason why it would be inferior to the current close queue, or do you simply believe it would not help enough to justify the effort?

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    First heading tl;dr: "I've seen all the other posts about this, but mine is different."
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:34
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    Second heading tl;dr: Question quality is a big problem, and everyone's talking about it right now.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:35
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    Third heading tl;dr: The Cathedral is SO as programming resource, the bazaar is SO as debugger.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:37
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    Fourth heading tl;dr: Moderation does not work.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:38
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    Executive Summary: Give the troubleshooters and the troubleshootees their own website.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:38
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    "so accept inevitability, let it become a cess pool" ... how about no?
    – Bart
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:41
  • @Bart: Then you prefer option 1 over option 2, I take it.
    – Mike S
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:45
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    @George Stocker: As mentioned in the post, the length is a reaction to just.another.programmer's more concise version being prejudicially closed. Perhaps you're right that the headers could be better, and I'd invite edits that make them more descriptive and compelling.
    – Mike S
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:46
  • @MikeS Those are not the only two options.
    – Bart
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:47
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    @Bart: Feel free to suggest other options, but the whole "wage a holy crusade against the undesirables and give them no place to go" one isn't really working.
    – Mike S
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:48
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    Noooo, not again the same idea... What, five in a row in the last two weeks? All heavily downvoted. . . Citing the book doesn't add value to the discussion either.
    – brasofilo
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 16:27
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    @brasofilo: Three were a fundamentally different idea for already explained reasons, and the other was wrongly closed as a duplicate. So, this is only twice in the last two weeks, and only because the first time didn't get a fair hearing.
    – Mike S
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 16:36
  • dat thread word...
    – user1228
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 16:51
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    I was under the impression that making it psychologically easier to "close" questions by moving them (a less hostile alternative) would greatly relieve the huge moderation burden people worry about. In theory I'd agree with your first objection, but closed questions seem to have little hope of saving edits anyway according to this: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/252561/…
    – Mike S
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 20:00
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    My personal experience has been that if a post starts off by having to explain why it shouldn't be closed, it should be closed. I've been on both sides of that coin. Also, my friends at five.sentenc.es would like a word with you.
    – corsiKa
    Commented Jun 12, 2014 at 4:14

3 Answers 3

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On which site would I ask my well-formed, fully-researched, but highly-specific programming problem?

To put it another way, would any experts ever go to the Bazaar? How would the people in the bazaar ever get their questions answered?

The closest we've ever come to this kind of site is Code Review. The folks at Code Review are amazingly thorough at offering code analysis, and the level of noise there is incredibly low. But they've eliminated the cesspool factor by strictly enforcing one rule: they require working code.

I think we do people a disservice when we troubleshoot their under-specified problems. Most of these folks need to learn their programming language better and learn some basic troubleshooting skills, and that's what we should be telling them to do, not sending them to some purgatory where someone who knows even less than them is trying to fix their problem.

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    Which site should belong to the experts depends on whether you prefer solution 1. or 2., which is where your reasoned input would be most valuable. ;) As far as the experts go: Maybe the "experts" wouldn't go to the Bazaar. Certainly the ones who fashion themselves as "caretakers" wouldn't, but people who just want to help each other out with programming problems would, and that includes the ones considered "rep whores."
    – Mike S
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:42
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    I often have software recommendation questions. I am sure there are experts on the SU and SE communities who could answer them in a heartbeat, but those communities both specifically disallow recommendation questions. The result? They made a new site called "Software Recommendations" and people actually go there. Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:45
  • @just.another.programmer: And SoftwareRecs also eliminated the cesspool by imposing very specific restrictions on the kinds of questions that can be asked there. Read their Help Center.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:48
  • And how long did it take for Programmers to narrow its scope @RobertHarvey? :)
    – Bart
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:49
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    @Bart: Too long. We still have folks there who think the scope narrowing was a mistake, even though the traffic numbers demonstrate otherwise.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:49
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    @RobertHarvey the new site could define a clear narrow scope just like SofwareRecs and Code Review. I don't identify with the troubleshooter or troubleshootee side of things, so I don't know what they would want for that scope, but maybe they do. I think the real question is why we, the members of the SO community are debating what the troubleshooter/troubleshootee community want. Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:57
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    @just.another.programmer: You mean something like this, or this? It's not really about debating what the debuggers want; it's about keeping the site useful. In the absence of that goal, we might as well be just another noisy forum.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:59
  • @RobertHarvey Keeping which site useful? SO? or the theoretical new community for debugger/debuggee's. I think a community dedicated to helping people who cannot answer the questions on either of your links learn how to answer them could be very useful. Commented May 12, 2014 at 16:10
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    @just.another.programmer: Read this: shirky.com/writings/herecomeseverybody/group_enemy.html
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 16:12
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    "would any experts ever go the bazaar?" I know I would, because helping a new programmer learn how to debug, and how to write code that is relatively easy to debug, is far more fun and interesting to me than clicking "close". Commented Jun 29, 2014 at 15:47
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"Help vampires and rep whores are too filthy to deserve ANY site," but the truth is that until you give them one, they WILL continue to use and abuse this one.

Let me tell you something; help vampires will still keep using the site with all the experts. You know why? Because that's where all the experts are. And who better to answer your questions than experts.

So all you end up doing is creating an extra site full of crap, and when they've figured out after a brief period of time that that's not where they want to be, they'll just return.

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    Perhaps, but look at it from a moderation perspective as well: Having a "ghetto" to throw posts in allows moderators to clean up the site with a much broader brush, and if they catch some borderline posts in the crossfire, those posts can still be answered on the ghetto site (where the "rep whores" will go) and eventually be moved back if they turn out better than expected and receive a canonical answer. Can you seriously argue this wouldn't be an improvement over the close queue?
    – Mike S
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:53
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    The help vampires wouldn't keep coming if the SO community stopped answering their questions. I don't care how many experts you have on SO, if none of them will answer, I'll go find someone else who will. Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:55
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    @MikeS: There are many places on the internet where help vampires can ask their questions (for example, Yahoo Answers), the difference is that their questions won't get answers there. So the argument that "If somewhere else on the internet accepts their questions they'll go there" is clearly not true. Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:55
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    @David Robinson: As I mentioned in the OP, the Stack Exchange format is simply superior to these "other places on the Internet," which is why people come to Stack Overflow instead of going there, despite all the hostility around here. If you create a Code Troubleshooting bazaar-like community for the "help vampires" and "rep whores," they'll get the same help they're getting here, except without the closings, downvotes, and hostility...and Stack Overflow will be made cleaner for it.
    – Mike S
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:58
  • @MikeS: Let's say there really were a subsite that focused on answering bad questions. Then wouldn't it be safe to say that reputation there wouldn't mean as much as it does on the main site? (Indeed I could easily imagine a stigma around it: "Oh, you use StackOverflow too? Oh- you're a bazaar answerer. I see.") So why do you assume rep whores would go there? In answer to your latest comment, they wouldn't get the same help there. Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:58
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    @David Robinson: One reason is that they're not all really rep whores...something else I argued in the OP. In truth, I think most of them are just programmers wanting to help out other programmers and "give back" to the community without feeling like a parasite who only asks and never answers. The problem is they can't give back by answering the hard unanswered questions, because even the real experts are having a hard time with those questions.
    – Mike S
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 15:59
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    @MikeS: What makes StackOverflow successful isn't the format (which isn't particularly different from many clones out there), it's the answerers. If you remove restrictions, these people won't go there, because good answerers like answering good questions. If you doubt that, ask why these hypothetical answerers who just want to help aren't flocking to sites like Yahoo Answers. Commented May 12, 2014 at 16:01
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    @David Robinson: Some people DO go to clone sites and Yahoo Answers, but Yahoo Answers is far broader than "programmers helping other programmers" or Code Troubleshooting, so it attracts a very different crowd. As far as clone sites go, it's hard for anyone to justify posting questions and answers on sites nobody has ever heard of. The Stack Exchange community is like the Google of topic-focused question and answer sites.
    – Mike S
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 16:04
  • @MikeS: How do you think it got to be that way? :-) Commented May 12, 2014 at 16:05
  • @David Robinson: Which community are you referring to?
    – Mike S
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 16:07
  • @MikeS: How The Stack Exchange community got to be the Google of topic-focused question and answer sites Commented May 12, 2014 at 16:07
  • @David Robinson: Part of it is because it was the first of its format. The voting, acceptance, tagging, searching, etc. mechanics are all better than Yahoo Answers, and it's topic-focused to boot. First mover advantage gave it self-perpetuating momentum. You're right that Stack Exchange doesn't have a better format than its clones, but the clones are just that: Clones with no compelling advantages of their own.
    – Mike S
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 16:10
  • 2
    @MikeS: Believe me, and users that have been answering much longer and more actively than I have, that quality standards played a huge role. If you removed the quality standards from StackOverflow, it wouldn't just turn into "StackOverflow where you can ask any question!" It would turn into "StackOverflow without the good answerers." Commented May 12, 2014 at 16:13
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    @David Robinson: Let's say you're right: The worst case scenario is that if bad and borderline questions are moved to the ghetto, nobody will go to the ghetto to answer them. People will still ask inappropriate questions here, and their questions will be moved to the more appropriate site. How is that any worse than the close queue we have today? How is it not better? At least then it would be easy to clean up Stack Overflow without completely removing the ability of people to answer each other's questions by permanently closing them and/or deleting them, which causes endless conflict.
    – Mike S
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 16:16
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    As anecdotal evidence supporting this, we regularly get completely off topic server administration or general software usage questions from users with accounts on Super User and Server Fault. When these questions are closed, these users complain and say they asked on Stack Overflow "because that's where all the experts are" and "there weren't enough people seeing my questions on the other sites". As long as SO is at the top of Google searches, that's where the traffic will flow.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented May 12, 2014 at 16:22
2

I see so many problems with that idea.

You are suggesting that the Stack Exchange should host a site of poorly made questions on purpose. That goes against everything that SE is. See these bits from https://stackexchange.com/tour:

Stack Exchange is a network of 159 communities that are created and run by experts and enthusiasts like you who are passionate about a specific topic. We build libraries of high-quality questions and answers, focused on each community's area of expertise.

(emphasis mine)

Get answers to practical, detailed questions

This is not worth the effort that would be involved (the propostal in Area 51, the commitment from people who support the idea, the moderation etc.).

I feel that you see help vampires as stupid people who cannot be educated and who have no hope of ever learning how to program properly. Therefore you are suggesting to use that extra, cesspool stack as a trap to lure them so that they will leave everyone else alone.

That understanding of mine may be a wrong conclusion I have come to after a superficial reading of your question proper. Forgive me if you meant otherwise, but if I did get it right, here's why it would not work: help vampires are not necessarily obliviously dumb. They are at smart enough to find their way into SO and posting questions that almost seem to fit into it in shape (thought not in content). It wouldn't take long for them to find "the real SO" that would remain after the split, as Bart suggested in his answer.

Finally, I think it is offensive to suggest that bad questions could almost fit into Programmers or Code Review, then right after that proposing a site specifically to serve as a cesspool for those questions.

If Code Review didn't have such a narrow purpose itself, it could have been a good dumping ground(...)

That could be read as "Code Review would have been the perfect cesspool, if only it had a broader purpose". I think that only makes the whole idea of looking for a place to dump bad questions just worse.

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