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To this day, I don't know the full mechanics of VLQ flags and I suspect there are no more than a few dozen users who do. But here's what I do know:

  • We're expected not to use moderators to handle problems that the community has the power to handle itself. In principle, this ought to include the deletion of VLQ content. Users with enough rep have the power to cast delete votes, and there's even a queue, the Low Quality Posts queue, for reviewing things that may be deletion-worthy. Hooray!

But…

  • Casting a delete vote doesn't put stuff into the LQP queue in the way that casting a close vote puts something into the CV queue (or at least isn't documented as doing so). For some reason, in order to both vote to delete something and bring it to the attention of other people with that power, we need to delete-vote and VLQ-flag it. This is weird and clumsy.
  • Not everybody in the LQP queue even has the power to cast delete votes. Access to the queue is granted at 2000 rep, but most deletion powers aren't granted until 20000 rep. What's the point in people who can't vote to delete stuff reviewing items from what's primarily a post-deletion queue? I dunno. Do they actually just have the effect of chomping items off the queue before people with delete votes can handle them, ironically preventing posts from getting deleted even as they recommend their deletion? Probably, but again, I dunno. These mechanics aren't clearly documented anywhere I've been able to find.
  • Sometimes VLQ flags end up in a diamond-moderator-only queue. The circumstances in which this happens and the probability of it happening are, again, things that I simply don't know and cannot find on Meta, and that a VLQ flag can end up in front of a diamond moderator isn't documented in the Help Center or in any resource linked to from the main site - nobody can even know this is possible unless they go hunting for information on Meta.
  • When these flags do end up in front of moderators, they're under instructions from Shog9 to decline them unless the post is "an exceptional case where the community isn't able to get rid of trash fast enough"

This system doesn't make sense. The official guidance by Jeff Atwood linked to from the Help Center tells us that a VLQ flag is "essentially" a "flag for removal", and the only documented effect of it is putting the post into the LQP queue for deletion by the community. But then some subset of these flags gets yanked out of the community's hands - without any indication to either flaggers or reviewers that this has happened - and put in front of diamond moderators. Those moderators are then required to decline them on the basis that the community should've handled the post itself - precisely the thing that we were trying to do by raising a non-moderator flag in the first place.

I find this state of affairs illogical and frustrating. So too do at least some of the mods. Quoting from the post by Brad Larson that I linked to earlier:

My personal opinion is that "very low quality" flags should either be hidden from moderators completely or be removed as a flag type. They are not a good use of our time, and there's just too much confusion about what they are to be used for.

...

Shog9's guidance ... differs from what most people think of when they use this flag. but until we're told otherwise, this is how we're handling them. I don't think this guidance is going to change, since moderators really shouldn't be used to handle things that the community has the tools to deal with.

Looking at the way they most commonly are used, and the various levels of review they feed into, I don't think they are particularly useful flags for moderators to act on. That's why I think they should either be removed as a flag class or not shown to moderators at all. The downside to the former is that there can be utility in having these kick really terrible questions into review, and the downside to the latter is that these flags may build up in a review queue faster than they can be acted on.

This leads to a tentative proposal: scrap the VLQ flag, and replace it with a "Delete" flag available to <20k users. Have a "Delete votes" queue for 20k+ users into which posts get placed when any user votes or flags them for deletion. In this way, deletion would become exactly analogous to closure; users with enough rep would be able to vote for deletion and access the review queue, while users with lower rep would be able to flag posts to put them into the queue.

This system would remove what sounds like a wholly pointless burden from moderators, and allow the rest of us to co-ordinate post deletion without fear of sometimes unpredictably bothering the mods as an (undocumented) side effect. Is there a downside I'm missing?

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  • 3
    There's an ambiguity with regard to the "VLQ flag"... Are we talking questions, or answers? The Low Quality Posts queue only reviews answers flagged as VLQ (and NAA), while I guess Triage reviews VLQ flagged questions. But if we ditch VLQ for both questions and answers, might as well ditch NAA into the new Delete flag. Very related.
    – Tunaki
    Commented Dec 18, 2016 at 20:20
  • 12
    The vast majority of deletion in Low Quality Review happen without much involvement of 20K users. The review is magic that makes deletions happen without explicit delete votes. The relatively few 20K users would be hard pressed to dispose of countless NAAs posted on the site without this magic.
    – user6655984
    Commented Dec 18, 2016 at 20:21
  • @zaq now, what if this delete queue was in addition to the current ones, rather than instead of? Commented Dec 18, 2016 at 20:23
  • @Tunaki ah yes, I'd forgotten that those two cases were handled differently - I'm not sure where it's documented, but Tiny Giant told me once. You're certainly right that NAA and VLQ ought to be handled differently in my proposal.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 18, 2016 at 20:24
  • 3
    @zaq damn, that explains much of the purpose and function of the queue that I previously didn't understand and does indeed suggest that my proposal is a terrible idea. Perhaps, then, the solution is simply to eliminate the path that puts VLQ flags in front of diamond mods, whatever exactly that path is?
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 18, 2016 at 20:25
  • 1
    Related idea: Make the flag cumulative like spam flags
    – jscs
    Commented Dec 19, 2016 at 0:43
  • 3
    The one downside I can think of is that I can't trust very many, er, "trusted users" (20k+) to not delete otherwise acceptable posts just because they don't like them, let alone sub-20k users.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 19, 2016 at 3:46
  • 2
    @BoltClock system already takes care of that by preventing 20K delete votes on non-negative answers doesn't it? And if you take into account that system already allows 10Kers delete closed questions any way they want (along with any answers that are there) your concern seems to be coming a bit too late
    – gnat
    Commented Dec 19, 2016 at 8:54
  • @gnat 10k users can't just 'delete closed questions any way they want'. The question has to be closed for a certain period of time before 10k users can even vote to delete (Either 48 hours or 1 week, I can't remember), and if the question has upvotes, it takes more and more 10k users to delete it.
    – TylerH
    Commented Dec 19, 2016 at 17:34
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    @MarkAmery I like the effort to do something here but removing the VLQ flag and replacing it with a 20k-only ability I think is a step backward. You will have even less content being deleted then. Instead, we should have VLQ flags never go to moderators (otherwise what's the point of a queue), and if enough "Recommend Deletion" votes are accrued in the queue, the content gets automatically deleted with a link to the Review Item that caused it to be removed.
    – TylerH
    Commented Dec 19, 2016 at 17:36
  • Yeah, that seems reasonable. I didn't know that the "Recommend Deletion" button affected anything besides how long the post stayed in the queue or how it got represented to the mods if it was passed along to them, so didn't realise that my proposal meant removing a mechanism by which stuff can be deleted.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Dec 19, 2016 at 17:38
  • @TylerH 48 hours to become eligible.
    – Braiam
    Commented Dec 20, 2016 at 0:48

2 Answers 2

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LQP reviews can end with 6 users reviewing "Recommend Deletion". When this happens, the post becomes "deleted from review" if it has a zero score or less. Additionally, questions flagged as VLQ go to Triage, not LQP, on Stack Overflow only.

Most of the possible comments from LQP typically fall under Not an Answer, but no reason needs to be given. LQP can delete absolute garbage posts that don't technically break any rules, such as "You can download a file through a proxy by deleting system32".

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    LQP flags can't be cast on positively scored posts, though Commented Dec 18, 2016 at 20:28
  • 3
    @JanDvorak or somewhat old posts. Not sure where the cutoff is though.
    – Nissa
    Commented Dec 18, 2016 at 20:32
  • Maybe we should just loosen those rules again? Commented Dec 18, 2016 at 20:33
  • 1
    @StephenLeppik one week, IIRC.
    – Glorfindel
    Commented Dec 18, 2016 at 20:36
  • @StephenLeppik cutoff is 7 days
    – gnat
    Commented Dec 18, 2016 at 21:59
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    "Additionally, questions flagged as VLQ go to Triage" which is part of the problem/confusion around VLQ. It's a flag for removal, but there's no path through it to removal for questions.
    – jscs
    Commented Dec 19, 2016 at 0:45
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    I tried pressing ALT+F4 to foo the bar but it did the complete opposite!
    – Nic
    Commented Dec 19, 2016 at 2:05
  • @QPaysTaxes knowyourmeme.com/memes/alt-f4
    – Nissa
    Commented Dec 19, 2016 at 2:06
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    I think QPaysTaxes gets the joke and is just playing along.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Dec 19, 2016 at 4:06
  • 3
    New question: "How do I foo the bar? I tried ALT+F4 and it didn't work. PS I'm on a Mac"
    – JamesENL
    Commented Dec 19, 2016 at 6:00
  • 2
    @JamesENL oh, you're on a Mac? In that case, the hotkey is cmd+W.
    – Nissa
    Commented Dec 19, 2016 at 17:54
5

Yes, please!

It took me quite a long time to figure out how the flags worked, and as you mentioned, required me to read numerous Meta posts, since there is little to no information about this in the Help Center. Even now, I still have to refer back to various Meta posts on occasion. Compare this to the close vote process: users < 3000 rep can flag to close, and users > 3000 rep can vote to close, and have access to a review queue of other posts with close votes or flags that they can agree or disagree with. I guarantee you won't be able to find a one-sentence description for the current state of delete votes! (Well, at least not a normal sentence.)

You mentioned that you still don't know the full mechanics of the VLQ flag. (This is a reasonable and common problem.) In my answer, I want to emphasize the most relevant parts of your proposal, with my (hopefully correct) knowledge of the VLQ/NAA flag mechanics in mind. These are:

  • Avoid bumping these flags to moderators. That's why we have custom flags.
  • Merge the "Recommend Deletion" vote with with the 20k Delete vote.
  • Make voting work the same way inside and outside the queue, and use flags only for low-rep users that don't have access to the queue.

I agree with TylerH that it's not a good idea to limit the new Delete votes to 20k users. Since deleting is a bit more serious than closing, I suggest access to Delete votes at 4000 rep, though since I currently have only 2900 rep, I'd also be fine with keeping it at 2000 rep (where users currently get access to the LQP queue).

On the post by Gilles that Tunaki mentioned (found here), GitaarLAB comments:

I think it does make sense. What about expanding this: make it delete because... where the ... means (just like close >> off-topic because...) that a second option-list follows with the (historical) common reasons NAA, VLQ (but better defined) and optional new reason(s) the community feels that are lacking (like perhaps for example an answer but not to this question or non-english)?

I think that too would be a good idea: have a list of options for why the post should be deleted, but combine all those reasons under one "should be deleted" flag option. The reasons could be taken from the current "Recommend Deletion" dialog in the LQP queue.

All of this makes the delete process more like the close process, which will lead to much better usability.

TL;DR: Make delete votes work just like close votes.

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