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https://stackoverflow.com/questions/35858904/doubts-about-java-graphics-images-double-buffering?noredirect=1#comment59408687_35858904

It's a long rambling "here's a bunch of things I don't know how to do", full of superfluous fluff, with a link to code. It seems to be the type of LQ question we don't want, but it has two upvotes and an upvoted answer.

I could probably edit it down to something usable, but that would involve removal of over half the verbiage and copying in the code. That much change is likely to elicit a negative reaction from the OP and maybe lead to an edit war.

This type of question and answer would be perfect for a discussion board such as JavaRanch or Java Programming Forums, but I've always believed it was OT here.

Since the "community" decides what's on-topic, does the community reaction to this question (and many similar questions) indicate that it now is on-topic as written?

Should I

  1. VTC as "too broad" and move on
  2. Perform major surgery and distill it down to what I think is on-topic
  3. Modify my standards to include this type of question and do nothing

EDIT: Some Clarification

If it were an isolated incident I would agree with the answers saying that it's not the community view. However, this happens with consistent, depressing regularity. Even in the review queues one sees lots and lots of bad questions with more than one "Looks OK" review. I concentrate on the Java tag, and spend most of my time flagging dups and telling new (and sometimes not so new) users to go read the Help Center and How To Ask. I find only one or two questions per day (and sometimes none) worth actually answering.

My question goes a lot deeper than this one instance. I've been concerned for a long time that the original goals of SO have been completely diluted by the vast majority of users who don't share in those goals, and I don't see anything being done to prevent that dilution.

SO is supposed to be self-policing, with the community as a whole voting on the merits of the questions and answers. If 99% of users treat the site as if those bad questions are OK, doesn't that define what is OK? Being on SO isn't much fun anymore because of the seemingly unstoppable onrush of "Please write my code for me", or "Here's my code, please fix it ASAP", or "I have no idea what I'm doing (but I'm not going to provide any meaningful information on my problem)". When these questions get upvoted I start to question my own sanity for sticking with it.

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  • 17
    Does "OT" really mean "off-topic", even though it could just as easily mean "on-topic"? I've actually only ever heard/seen "OT" as "over-time"
    – Tas
    Mar 9, 2016 at 21:05
  • The example is not visible anymore. My guess is that the meta effect took care of it. Maybe you should not have linked to it right away. Actually I have a few problem swith "the community decides what is right and wrong". It seems like it's prone to misuse. I would expect that close reasons must be given and can be challenged and the close reason can be actually be formulated and these reasons do not change from day to day. For me really the help center defines what is on-topic and the community is only the actor who implements this wisdom and from time to time changes it slightly. Mar 9, 2016 at 21:38
  • 3
    The example was just that, an example, of a broader issue, which OP wrote about at length. Whatever happened with that example, doesn't have much bearing on OPs broader views and opinions. As a casual SO user I certainly feel like I'm seeing more and more upvotes for worse and worse questions. Outside of SO, I've noticed I see worse and worse articles & posts atop Google searches, and each has no shortage of "Great post" "Thanks really helpful" etc. Outside of gaming the system, I've wondered if this is cultural. Maybe some cultures are just quicker to casually give a 'great job' than I.
    – Bean Taxi
    Mar 10, 2016 at 4:34
  • @Tas or "Operating Thetan"
    – OrangeDog
    Mar 10, 2016 at 13:38

4 Answers 4

47

SO is supposed to be self-policing, with the community as a whole voting on the merits of the questions and answers. If 99% of users treat the site as if those bad questions are OK, doesn't that define what is OK?

No, it doesn't. The official policy still determines this.

We have a pseudo-democratic system in that, if people want to question or change the policy, they can come to Meta and discuss a change. If their arguments are sound and popular, then a change may be instituted. Until that time, though, the current policy stands.

Unfortunately, relying as we do on community moderation, our policies get spottily enforced. Many users are either ignorant about the policies, blatantly flouting them because they disagree with them, or reluctant to be the one who has to enforce them (it isn't a glamorous job). This does not, however, change what the policies are.

Being on SO isn't much fun anymore because of the seemingly unstoppable onrush of "Please write my code for me", or "Here's my code, please fix it ASAP", or "I have no idea what I'm doing (but I'm not going to provide any meaningful information on my problem)". When these questions get upvoted I start to question my own sanity for sticking with it.

I can't disagree with this. We need better ways of dealing with this problem, or the war will be lost forever.

Community moderation is a great idea in theory, but, as you've pointed out, many members of the community are unwilling or unable to carry out moderation duties. Worse, the users with moderation-level privileges are vastly outnumbered by the people with merely asking and upvoting privileges. Bad questions get asked because just about anyone with a pulse can ask questions, and then they get upvoted because other people come by and upvote them. It only takes 15 reputation to upvote questions, but a lot more than that to vote down, edit, vote to close, etc. Therefore, it looks like the community has endorsed a question, when really it is just the subset of the community that has either no vested interest in maintaining the quality of the site or no tangible ability to do so.
(Yes, anyone who can vote up can also flag, but that's a lot more hidden than the vote arrows, and requires both knowledge of the site's policies and a willingness to enforce them. New users at a reputation level of only 15 are unlikely to be so invested. They have little incentive to be.)

I've been concerned for a long time that the original goals of SO have been completely diluted by the vast majority of users who don't share in those goals, and I don't see anything being done to prevent that dilution.

Yeah, in other words, that. It is a serious numbers problem; you and I and most of the other people who hang out on Meta are vastly outnumbered. Any ideas?

So far, this answer has been relatively uncontroversial, so let's see if I can garner some downvotes. I think it's time to seriously consider expanding moderation privileges to a subset of trusted users. We recently started allowing gold tag badge holders to close questions as duplicates with a single, binding vote. This has been, in my opinion and according to the data that I've seen, a smash success. It needs to be expanded to other types of close votes. I'm not sure about all the implementation details. Maybe it should be that gold tag badge holders should be able to close tagged questions as "off topic," "too broad," or "unclear" with a single binding vote, just like duplicates. Or maybe it should require a consensus of only 2 or 3, rather than 5. Or maybe for these closure reasons, tag badges aren't the best measurement of qualification and we should use a reputation requirement instead—say 20k?

Either way, I think something needs to be considered. Post a new question about it if you have some ideas or want to start the ball rolling. In the mean time, all you can do is keep plugging away with the resources available to you.

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  • You suggested this is being caused by a small subset of low rep users. I wrote a SEDE query to check if that was true. Unfortunately, it looks like SEDE scrubs UserId's off all upvotes before publishing the data so the query is useless. Do you have another way of checking this? Mar 9, 2016 at 8:08
  • @just I didn't really say (or at least I didn't mean) "a small subset." Rather, I meant the majority of people, most of whom have low reputation because the majority of people with upvote privileges on this site have low reputation. These people are not interested in maintaining the quality of the site, either because of their lack of familiarity with its rules or because they are selfish and just care about getting their question or two answered. Mar 9, 2016 at 8:27
  • 4
    @CodyGray: "they are selfish and just care about getting their question or two answered" That doesn't explain why they would upvote the answers of other people. The problem cited here is about upvotes and positive behavior towards bad questions. That's not selfishness; that's someone with different priorities. Mar 9, 2016 at 15:48
  • 6
    @NicolBolas users are suggested to up-vote answers that are useful to them; if they arrive at a question/answer via google, and it helps in some way, the site strongly implies they should press the up-arrow button -- regardless of whether the question is "on topic".
    – Gus
    Mar 9, 2016 at 16:29
  • 5
    my naive understanding that most of the time, questions get upvoted by users who have the same homework to do...
    – mfro
    Mar 9, 2016 at 18:57
  • "Anyone with a pulse" is an bad anecdote that alienates the fact that only ~47% of the world population has internet access. "Jimmy", a little kid in sub-saharian africa using an OLPC note running Eclipse Galileo would like to ask how to make an applet, but alas his village doesn't have internet access. Mar 9, 2016 at 20:21
  • "you and I and most of the other people who hang out on Meta..." - less hanging out on Meta could save a bit of time maybe... (even less serious: What about if we built an artificial intelligence that closes all the bad questions?) Mar 9, 2016 at 21:43
  • 3
    Your attempt to garner down-votes just got you my up-vote. We definitely need some kind of rule change. I can't see how the current situation can be improved with the tools at our disposal. Mar 10, 2016 at 8:21
  • 1
    @mind "Anyone" with a pulse does not mean "everyone" with a pulse. Not really sure what your point is. Yes, there are extremely disadvantaged and impoverished people who are unable to use the resources available to those of us who enjoy much of the world's unfairly distributed wealth. I don't think my rhetoric here is contributing to the disenfranchisement of those individuals, though. Mar 10, 2016 at 9:32
  • @CodyGray I didn't mean it seriously. Sorry if I caused any inconvenience. You asked for "any ideas", so I just presented one (quite useless). You do great work here. I always like to read your contributions. Mar 10, 2016 at 9:42
7

This is not the Community's reaction to a question; just a few individual users. Downvote, vote to close and move on.

1
  • See my updated post Mar 8, 2016 at 21:05
3

If you think that the question is too broad, vote to close it as too broad.

As far as editing, there's a certain amount of fluff that just isn't relevant to the question at all. You can feel free to remove that in editing. You shouldn't be editing the post to radically change the scope of what it's asking for to focus the question, for that you should comment on the question to explain what is too broad, and possibly to suggest ways that the author could focus the question. They would then be able to edit the question into a more specific, answerable question.

The fact that just two people felt that the question was worth upvoting isn't exactly compelling evidence that there is consensus among the community that this is a good question. This, alone, wouldn't be something that should radically change what you consider on topic. If you find that virutally all questions of comparable scope attract lots of upvotes, and few to no downvotes, over an extended period of time (something I wouldn't really expect to be the case) then perhaps you should consider just ignoring such posts, rather than wasting a close vote on something that won't be closed. Again, I don't expect that to be the case here though.

1
  • See my updated post Mar 8, 2016 at 21:05
-8

I would lower the number of votes needed to close a question. I'd lower it to two votes. If someone is found to be making close votes improperly, then you ban them from being able to make close votes.

Once a question is "closed" (Or some other classification for improper questions), then I'd give the OP 3 days to bring the question into compliance. That's it, . . . 3 days, then it's automatically deleted/removed from public view, and a link to the hidden, or a copy of the deleted original post is placed into the users profile page, under a "review" tab, or something like that. That way, if they want to improve the question without creating a new one, they have the original copy available to them.

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  • 4
    Uh, you'll discourage close voting greatly by banning users who close vote. And there is a reason it takes five people to close something; they wanted the improper close votes not to result in the closure of the question quickly.
    – M.A.R.
    Mar 9, 2016 at 20:01
  • 2
    This requires too much active monitoring of users to tell whether they are making them improperly and lowers the requirement to almost a unilateral power. If I only need to find one user to agree with me on something to be closed, that makes me not much weaker in power than a moderator. About the same, if a user manages to get a sockpuppet account to 3k, or initiates a close flag and follows through on a main account with a binding close vote.
    – TylerH
    Mar 9, 2016 at 20:05
  • 1
    There needs to be a balance. Most people probably understand that questions should not be unfairly closed. You won't know if banning people from close voting will discourage close voting unless you try it. You're stating that as an absolute, as if you know it for sure. I can state that I know something for sure. But that level of interaction is pathetic. On balance, how many questions get closed as needed, and how many questions get closed to quickly?
    – Alan Wells
    Mar 9, 2016 at 20:26
  • There are ways that you can balance the concern about the "unilateral power." The problem right now isn't "finding" people to agree with me to close a question. My experience is, that extremely few people vote to close a question. And I don't see people just voting to close questions for no good reason.
    – Alan Wells
    Mar 9, 2016 at 20:33

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