190

Yesterday I was helping a guy (user in4001 ) with a programming question in this site. The question was titled "FBX transformation". I gave him code, answered his comments and extended code mutiple times to help him, I even continued in chat so I could help him more. After that, I asked him if he could check it as answer, as it was, because checking his profile, he had twelve questions without checking the answer. He even asked me to give him code "so others could see it". No problem, I gave him a ton of code on transformations.

Today, I came to the site so see if he finally checked it as answer to find the user deleted the question.

What I can do against this user with this behavior?

enter image description here

29
  • 16
    Wow, he didn't even bother to upvote your answer? If he had, I don't think he would have been able to delete the question. Feb 23, 2016 at 9:02
  • 13
    he didn't ever. Even requesting him to do so. Probably, because he knows he would not be able to delete it afterwards if he upvoted it. As you can see in the snaps , I gave him a lot of code each time he asked me "and how do you do xxx?" Feb 23, 2016 at 9:05
  • 82
    Another one bites the dust...
    – BoltClock
    Feb 23, 2016 at 9:06
  • 82
    vote to undelete Feb 23, 2016 at 9:07
  • 41
    The dates on this are a bit strange. The question was posted 07-Apr-2015, the answer was written 26-Jun-2015, and the user who posted the question didn't comment on it until 22-Feb-2016. Apparently, the answer sat there for 8 months until OP came back, noticed it was there, and then deleted the question. Feb 23, 2016 at 12:35
  • 15
    Diego -- couldn't you just post your answer as an answer to any one of the many similar questions? Or, simply click to make a new question, and make yours the answer? It seems very strange to force the writing - the question - to appear if the user doesn't want it there
    – Fattie
    Feb 23, 2016 at 13:01
  • 17
    stackoverflow.com/questions/29496325/fbx-transformations/… ...and then he went, ignored @diego.martinez 's answer, answered himself and accepted it. Some people are just unbelievable
    – xDaizu
    Feb 23, 2016 at 17:18
  • 37
    haha, what an absurd amount of upvotes to that answer.
    – CubeJockey
    Feb 23, 2016 at 17:19
  • 18
    @DanielParejoMuñoz - They commented explaining that. Said that, far from ignoring it, they actually tried the answer, found it wanting, and posted their own solution which actually worked in their experience. Yeah, positively unconscionable.
    – femtoRgon
    Feb 23, 2016 at 17:28
  • 12
    I'm sure others disagree. Yes the guy probably shouldn't have deleted the quesiton but ... what stuck out to me is asking for the answer to be marked. Is asking "please mark my answer as the accepted answer" recommended SO behavior? Should I be posting comments under my answer "Please mark this as the accepted answer"?
    – gman
    Feb 23, 2016 at 20:11
  • 53
    Wow. The meta effect here is obscene - on both the question and the answer.
    – BJ Myers
    Feb 23, 2016 at 23:49
  • 17
    @gman - I go by this meta answers recommendation, it is very reasonable if asked in the right way to a new or newish user. Also, only after a reasonable period of time and usually only if the user has indicated that the answer answered the question. If a user comments "thanks, that worked great!" and then doesn't accept it after 12 hours, I will usually post this comment. Feb 24, 2016 at 0:15
  • 8
    @BJ Myers: Some days I wish we could distribute it evenly to all posts. There are tons of questions and answers out there in desperate need of attention - be it positive or negative.
    – BoltClock
    Feb 24, 2016 at 9:30
  • 14
    @BJMyers yup, people are piling on and downvoting/upvoting the question/answer respectively, purely as an emotional response to diego's account of things. how useful, reducing what should be a technical knowledgebase and voting thereon, to knee-jerk populism instead. is this a side-effect of the current car-crash election season? Feb 24, 2016 at 11:10
  • 12
    The actual amount of upvotes/downvotes on this question&answers is ridiculous... Please stop upvote things you don't understand, and downvote emotionally...
    – vard
    Feb 25, 2016 at 16:46

4 Answers 4

246

I've restored it and left the following comment:

Hello :) If you'd like to have this question disassociated from your account, please contact us and we'll be happy to oblige. The answer you received is fantastic, and someone put a lot of effort into writing it, I'd hate to waste all of that time by removing this.

Per our TOS Section 3 - 'Subscriber content' - we have the right to do this. While we generally respect the prerogative of the question author to remove something if no up-voted answers have been provided, there are some exceptional cases that require a human being to understand.

I'm simply not comfortable with that much of your time being wasted through someone else's prerogative. In cases where you've put much more than the average amount of effort you'd put into an answer - reach out to us and let us know - we will take a look. I can't promise that we'll always restore the question (there may be other factors at play), but we will take a look.

36
  • 32
    Hopefully the OP here has learned a different lesson, though... there's a good reason why we don't want to associate ourselves with the term "help desk".
    – BoltClock
    Feb 23, 2016 at 9:23
  • 55
    I've opened a broader discussion to propose disallowing self-deletion if an answer to the question has been edited multiple times. The whole purpose of blocking this if multiple, or a single upvoted answer has been posted is to avoid wasting people's time, and I think the additional criteria fortifies that a bit.
    – user50049
    Feb 23, 2016 at 9:40
  • 8
    Tim ... "While we generally respect the prerogative of the question author to remove something" ... "How nice of you", as it were. It's great that you removed the writer's name from it - good policy - but it's incredibly inappropriate to force writing to be kept around if a person doesn't want it. As I say, a simple and clear solution is at hand. Since the answer is so terribly awesome, just post a one-sentence question ("transformation for openGL?") and then answer it "wiki-style". This solves all problems.
    – Fattie
    Feb 23, 2016 at 13:04
  • 10
    The "rights" of someone to NOT have their writing seen, far exceeds the notion that "I wrote a long answer and feel bad it's not there". The two aren't even in the same category. In any event, as I mention a simple and effective solution is at hand. If the answer's so incredible that Diego wants it on SO for all time, spend 2 seconds putting it in as a QA - which SO has the facility for an encourages.
    – Fattie
    Feb 23, 2016 at 13:05
  • 21
    @JoeBlow I've restored some self-deletes only to have a DMCA complaint come in a week later about them. And as the answers all contained code from the question (from one of those 'programming academy' places) - everything had to go. There are also cases of honest mistakes where someone is in pretty eminent danger of losing their job. 90% of the time, we stick firmly to the TOS and just offer to disassociate the question after restoring it, but there is that 10% of the time where honest and extenuating circumstances are at hand (we try not to be robots about it).
    – user50049
    Feb 23, 2016 at 13:18
  • 21
    Then they shouldn't have posted it on SO in the first place?
    – ivarni
    Feb 23, 2016 at 14:07
  • 21
    @JoeBlow I thought about just disassociating it, but I'd be trampling pretty hard on Creative Commons if I did. The option is an out for someone that wishes to be disassociated from a collaborative work - if I make that decision for someone, I'm taking away their attribution without their permission. That'd be .. even though it might seem like a favor .. bad.
    – user50049
    Feb 23, 2016 at 16:20
  • 18
    what if the answer is incorrect or incomplete? 63+? just because he brought it up in meta?
    – Omar
    Feb 23, 2016 at 17:44
  • 10
    I agree @Omar, there's an unnecessary amount of votes on that answer.
    – CubeJockey
    Feb 23, 2016 at 18:52
  • 5
    @CubeJockey. What is the prescribed necessary votes on that answer. I thought we are all supposed to vote as we feel on a subject and not through sympathy, anger, or even if we think something got too many up or down votes
    – user5889203
    Feb 23, 2016 at 19:53
  • 6
    Is it possible to add a link to the meta discussion from the question (even just as a comment)? As it stands, the question doesn't look like a low quality question (it doesn't seem particularly high, but I'm not familiar with it). Anyone visiting the question in the future will see -12 and think it's a very very bad question, whereas it was probably just the community outlash from this meta post.
    – Tas
    Feb 24, 2016 at 1:16
  • 12
    I do think the meta effect from this is pretty out of hand on this.
    – Magisch
    Feb 24, 2016 at 7:25
  • 6
    Seriously? The questions is being downvoted and the answer is upvoted through the roof? Get a hold of yourself people :(
    – Gimby
    Feb 24, 2016 at 8:32
  • 12
    Just BTW "The answer you received is fantastic" it's a shame this was written by an SO staff member. The answer is buggy and poor. If SO had written, say, "the answer shows a huge effort" that would make sense, and be appropriate from a moderator. "answer is fantastic" is an engineering judgement call in the specific field (and could be debated forever by technical experts).
    – Fattie
    Feb 25, 2016 at 15:08
  • 6
    I think, maybe, you should have waited a couple days before restoring it, or locked it immediately for a few days to let this whole stink blow over. This is one of the worst examples I've ever seen of the Meta Effect.
    – JDB
    Feb 25, 2016 at 18:50
19

To start off, I don't condone in4001 actions and how he went about the whole situation. However, I don't entirely agree with diego.martinez approach as well.

I'm not entirely sure about Fbx transformations, so I'm not going in detail about that. From reading the question, answer, and the comments I can get an understanding of how much effort diego.martinez put into the addressing the question.

The dilemma that I see here is that, in my opinion, this specific question (on meta) seems more of complaining about points:

  • I asked him if he could check it as answer -- If the person that asked the question doesn't say your answer works, then why?
  • He even asked me to give him code "so others could see it". No problem, I gave him a ton of code on transformations. -- But I thought we're not a coding service

Did he actually deserve accepted answer? I can't decide that, but he definitely should have received an upvote.


The reason that I believe this is post has turned into complaining about points is because, I came into a similar situation here Want the horizontal bar to graph the bars from high to low . By asking about how to handle the situation on meta I was informed on how to address the issue through comments then it was marked as duplicate to Link for poor or ever-growing questions to better explain why people stop answering .

Now some would probably ask how does this meta post differ from mine? I'm not trying to investigate the situation and wonder why my answer wasn't accepted even though I've put in effort into it.

We like points, no doubt about that, in the end SO is about sharing knowledge.

6
  • 7
    Question and answer should be assessed. The question is legit and doesn't deserve all the negative points. The answer is good but doesn't deserve all the positive votes. Meta Trolls are good in voting for no reason.
    – Omar
    Feb 24, 2016 at 10:04
  • 3
    @Omar, I agree and it's getting worse overtime. The upvotes/downvotes, at this point, are not justified and clearly do not correspond with the reasoning behind them (if you mouse-over the arrow and see the popup).
    – Leb
    Feb 24, 2016 at 13:05
  • 3
    The problem is, the question has no significant impact on the community, 141 views in 10 months, it has no added value to help seekers.
    – Omar
    Feb 24, 2016 at 13:53
  • @Omar I'm not so sure esoteric information of high quality is easy to gauge for importance. What if one of those views was a core unity3d dev who learned something important from it. (Not saying the answer is high quality, that's outside my area of expertise, just pointing out I've received much help from low view posts on SO)
    – ebyrob
    Feb 25, 2016 at 16:52
  • @ebyrob The question were answered two months after it was posted. The OP asked the user to elaborate on his answer two days ago. Let's assume it helped 50% (70) of the ones who viewed. In ROI perspective, it's a loss. And now, the situation is worse, negative score legitimate question with two answers, which one of them is insanely upvoted and the other by The OP himself (who is aware of his problem more than anyone here) is insanely downvoted. Meta-Effect..meh!
    – Omar
    Feb 25, 2016 at 17:52
  • @Omar I think I took your last comment out of context... You're right in comparison to number of votes it's ridiculous. Most low traffic threads that helped me were also low score. I forgot that part.
    – ebyrob
    Feb 25, 2016 at 18:26
5

To @in4001, for future reference.

The correct approach would be to post a comment saying "I'm sorry, but this answer is not solving the problem, because...". Or alternatively, ask for clarification if you don't understand parts of the answer. Give the poster a chance to complete the answer.

Needless to say, that comment should be posted swiftly after the answer has been posted and not 8 months later. Although I suppose a late comment is better than no comment.

Regarding voting & accepting as answer:

  • If the answer is helpful and complete, you should up-vote it. If it is the best of several such answers posted, you should accept it as the answer to the question.

  • If the answer is helpful but not complete, just giving hints towards the solution, or giving a partial solution, you should up-vote it.

  • If the answer isn't helpful, although it attempts to answer the question and it contains no serious quality concerns, don't vote on it at all.

  • If the answer is of poor quality, incorrect, off-topic, recommending to use bad practice etc, you should down vote it.

If there are improvements to the answer(s), re-visit them and reconsider the above.

If there are no improvements and no complete answer, but you know the answer to the question yourself, then post it as an answer of your own and accept that as the correct answer.

And of course, your answer needs to fulfil the requirements of the question. If your question explicitly says "I cannot use x", then you shouldn't post an answer which uses "x". That would be a poor quality answer.

Note that there is a grace period from the point where you post an answer to your own question until you can accept that answer as the correct one. This is intentional, to give other users a chance to post answers or to improve existing ones.

You are only obliged to accept an answer if you believe it is correct and answers the question.

Please note that the lack of good/complete answers is often caused by the question itself. So another option is to read the question once more, check if there is something unclear, if there are more details you could provide, if the tags are correct etc. Edit the question if you find ways to improve it.

Deleting your question is more of a last resort, for cases where you think that the question doesn't make any sense, or is of poor quality beyond rescue, or is of no interest to future readers (for example: "Ah crap, turns out that this strange bug was just caused by a forgotten semicolon.").

5
  • 4
    "If the answer isn't helpful...don't vote at all" Why in the world not? That sounds like exactly when you should downvote. From the downvote tooltip: "This answer is not useful"
    – femtoRgon
    Feb 25, 2016 at 15:02
  • 1
    @femtoRgon Because surely there must be some middle-ground where you neither up-vote nor down-vote. An on-topic answer which is mediocre might not be what you wished for, but at least someone put the effort into writing you an answer. If you, the person who wrote the question, would down vote every answer which isn't really helpful, but not terrible either, you'll soon stand out as an elitist, ungrateful jerk. Now other people who happen to come across the question might decide to down vote the unhelpful if not terrible answer. But that's not what I'm talking about here.
    – Lundin
    Feb 25, 2016 at 15:16
  • Sure, I think there is a middle ground, but I don't think the middle ground is answers that are unhelpful. If it isn't useful, then what good is it to anyone? Who is helped by giving "A's for effort" to useless content.
    – femtoRgon
    Feb 25, 2016 at 15:32
  • @femtoRgon Usefulness is subjective. Useless to you doesn't necessarily mean useless to someone else. The users of SO has a very wide experience span. For example, if you are a newbie posting a basic beginner question, and some guru tosses you an advanced answer which you just don't understand and can't tell if it is correct or not, you shouldn't down vote, since that answer could be interesting and helpful to someone with more experience. Similarly, simplified, pedagogical answers might have great value even if they skip to mention all the advanced "ifs and buts".
    – Lundin
    Feb 25, 2016 at 15:53
  • 3
    I think "not helpful" in the context of the downvote tooltip is typical SO euphemism for "crap". You could have an answer that doesn't really end up helping, but isn't necessary "wrong" or "dangerous". Such an answer deserves neither an upvote nor a downvote. Downvotes should be applied when the answer is just downright wrong or doesn't even approach being helpful. Feb 25, 2016 at 16:49
-3

Thanks for the ongoing discussion on the matter. However I see the need to explain the situation once more.

  • I believe if a reply to a post is the not the complete answer and even will mislead/confuse other people, then there is a need to delete the post and make a new one (either by OP or by the person who answered). For example, would you like if someone uses this misleading algorithm in their code (because it it upvoted) and spend nights to figure out where the bug is coming from? The answer with missing details is more dangerous than a wrong answer (in our case pivots, and pivot offsets which wasn't mentioned in the first answer and important for transformation of a 3D object). Because the behavior is unpredictable such that the provided algorithm could seem to work with some data set and pass the unit tests, but will fail in other cases (pivots doesn't have effect in some FBX objects).

  • Also I don't understand the answering person's high motivation to push me and say "mark my answer as true". After I realized it is wrong and deleted, he opens this topic here and still forces community to upvote his false answer. One should remember we are not here just to gain votes, but to provide and receive the correct information.

  • Therefore I take any upvotes and downvotes on this matter as an emotional response rather than rational.

18
  • 87
    If that were the case, wouldn't the right response be leaving a comment explaining why it's wrong, and accompanying that with a downvote? That would have avoided this situation.
    – Kevin B
    Feb 23, 2016 at 18:23
  • 20
    well... I don't use wikipedia, didn't know they even had discussions. but i do use SO and i do read comments.
    – Kevin B
    Feb 23, 2016 at 18:26
  • 24
    What you did is considered bad form at best, and being a "taker" at worst. Your rating is not the only reputation you need to worry about. If you think an answer is bad, you comment on it so that other people reading can benefit from your alleged wisdom. As it is, it appears that you are only out to grab information and keep it to yourself, which is the antithesis of what this site is about.
    – user5889203
    Feb 23, 2016 at 18:30
  • 80
    Deleting and reposting the question in order to unilaterally remove someone else's work just isn't how it's done on SO. It may have been well-intentioned, but it's still exploiting the system somewhat. If you were intended to be able to curate answers to your question and delete the ones you don't like, the option would surely be given to you explicitly. Downvote, comment, post a better answer. Those are the options you have.
    – femtoRgon
    Feb 23, 2016 at 18:38
  • 10
    @in4001 A talk page on Wikipedia is on a separate page, you have to make some effort to see it. Comments are more like [citation needed] or references [1]: they're always visible, even though you can ignore them if you want.
    – svick
    Feb 23, 2016 at 18:51
  • 23
    @in4001 What's more, if there is something actually wrong with an answer and you comment, there's a good chance the author will correct it or, failing that, that other people will notice your comment, agree with it and downvote the answer. Deleting the question and asking it again really isn't the right way to do it.
    – svick
    Feb 23, 2016 at 18:53
  • 9
    Welcome to SO, where voting system is abused and misused.
    – Omar
    Feb 23, 2016 at 23:09
  • 11
    The community has not been "forced" to upvote anything, @in4001. Emotional or not, it is quite correct to view the excising of someone's work by deleting the parent post as underhand, and quite against the spirit of the SE network.
    – halfer
    Feb 23, 2016 at 23:56
  • 3
    I will say in4001 is mentioning is also valid argument in a way. My opinion or say to this is like any democracy to work properly and efficiently it requires good leaders in case of SO it is other users modding SO. In the above post Tim himself has mentioned restoring the deleted question may not happen always as various factors are involved.
    – Acewin
    Feb 24, 2016 at 0:52
  • 20
    If an answer isn't a good answer, you downvote it and leave a comment explaining your decision. You don't delete the question and open a new copy. This is the entire premise of the question/answer/voting system used here. If others agree the answer is bad, it'll accumulate negative votes, and readers with any sense will know not to trust it on blind faith. Also, as for Meta, downvotes mean people don't agree with you, which I think should tell you something here. But if they're downvoting your question due to not liking your conduct - yep, that's wrong too. And two wrongs don't make a right! Feb 24, 2016 at 10:56
  • 2
    I read the question and answer on stackoverflow, clearly seems that the author of the answer have given you complete assistance, and its not good to take credits away from him/her by deleting the question.
    – nobalG
    Feb 24, 2016 at 11:53
  • 5
    Thankyou for the post. It is always helpful to hear both sides of a discussion. I was going to comment further, but others have already said what I wanted to say (in particular I'd echo most of underscore_d's comment). The voting on your question has indeed gone bonkers; that is an unfortunate side effect of a discussion on Meta and is indeed an emotional response. It is, however, a side effect; only occurring after the initial actions that led to the dispute being raised.
    – Simba
    Feb 25, 2016 at 13:19
  • 7
    Everything in4001 says here is utterly correct and rational. The whole situation is bizarre.
    – Fattie
    Feb 25, 2016 at 15:00
  • 5
    I'm not gonna lie, @diego.martinez was basically a brand new user, prior to this. He gave an answer that was only partial and it built steam. You didn't want to put a correct, late answer up, which would likely never catch up in votes to the partial answer, so to expunge his answer you deleted the question. That last part isn't acceptable. You place no faith in the StackOverflow community to distinguish between a good and bad answer... Feb 25, 2016 at 15:21
  • 10
    This was a circus. Yes, you shouldn't have deleted the answer - there are more appropriate actions to take. But being a new user, it's not absurd that you would have been confused on this point. Mostly, I'm sorry that this was your introduction to the community. As you can see, people here care very passionately about the content of the site, which is why it tends to be such an amazing reference. But the sword cuts both ways and everyone who used their vote to exact revenge or chide behavior, rather than in response to the content, undercut the very principles they were so passionate about.
    – JDB
    Feb 25, 2016 at 19:06

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .