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Sometimes during our epic fights against spam we see the following comment:

I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it is spam.

enter image description here

Following a high velocity meeting of our foreheads with our respective tables we try to quickly type some kind of "Don't vote to close, FLAG AS SPAM!" comment before the question is destroyed.
Could the system do that for us?

If someone enters a custom close reason containing the word "spam", show a warning:

If you think this is spam you should use a flag, not a close vote!

This warning should not prevent writing a custom reason.
For example, this is a case where a custom close reason containing "spam" is perfectly fine:

I am voting to close this question as off-topic because asking how to make a spam sandwich is about fine cuisine and has nothing to do with programming.

Such a warning could also contain a link to Do I flag a question as spam, or vote to close it as spam?

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  • 55
    That last custom close reason from DemoUser, though.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Feb 19, 2016 at 16:42
  • 14
    This would be great. Not only does flagging spam get rid of it quicker but it helps to increase the number of flags you get(up to the 100 max) Commented Feb 19, 2016 at 16:42
  • 9
    Some stats --- 2 questions vtc'd as spam today ... 17 in the last 30 days. Commented Feb 19, 2016 at 16:47
  • 4
    Running a quick query, I see "spam" appearing in only 11 custom close reasons on non-deleted posts. Even in those cases, it isn't being used particularly well as a term: stackoverflow.com/questions/18566031/… stackoverflow.com/questions/25668376/… stackoverflow.com/questions/19789273/…
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Feb 19, 2016 at 16:52
  • The rest of those custom close reasons containing "spam" were pretty bad as well, so I don't think you'd annoy people with too many false positives with this.
    – Brad Larson Mod
    Commented Feb 19, 2016 at 16:54
  • 2
    @BradLarson That would be my main concern. People throwing around the s-word often don't know (or care) what it actually means. I routinely get flags and emails claiming spam for everything from horrible English grammar to someone posting the same question over again. spam, spam, spam
    – Robert Cartaino Mod
    Commented Feb 19, 2016 at 16:57
  • 9
    There is a practical limit on the number of ways you can prevent users from doing something stoopid. False warnings do get in the way. This one is about at the level of the unusable microwave manual, "not to be used to dry off your dog". A comment like yours suffices. Commented Feb 19, 2016 at 17:21
  • 3
    @HansPassant How would a false warning get in the way? If it doesn't blur the text input area or do something stupid like a JS alert, users could just raise their eyes from the keyboard/input box, think "OK, never mind, this isn't spam and does not need a flag" and keep typing their custom close reason that uses the word "spam".
    – Kyll
    Commented Feb 19, 2016 at 17:25
  • 3
    A simple example is the 3rd off topic reason, "Questions asking us to recommend ...". Your rule would reject it, it contains the word spam. Commented Feb 19, 2016 at 17:33
  • 25
    @HansPassant Exactly not so! I specified that the warning should be non-blocking. You could still post a custom close reason with the word "spam", the goal here is to warn and educate users who think that voting to close is the right action to take against spam.
    – Kyll
    Commented Feb 19, 2016 at 17:36
  • 2
    I agree with the intent of the question but for the love of god there's better UX solutions than slapdash "warning" signposts to corral you into the thing you were apparently supposed to do.
    – djechlin
    Commented Feb 19, 2016 at 22:37
  • 2
    @NathanOliver You also earn one bonus flag per 2000 rep, according to the privileges page. (That seems like a vestigial feature from before the more-flags-for-good-flags system was implemented.) Commented Feb 19, 2016 at 22:42
  • 3
    @djechlin I agree with the intent of your comment, but for the love of god there's better ways to express it than vague comments that make up unbacked claims about existence of better solutions. Commented Feb 20, 2016 at 17:49
  • 1
    @RobertCartaino: Please don't spam us with your bold and italic formatting :) Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 1:01
  • 2
    (fake)Downvoting because Spam is not fine cuisine. Commented Jul 14, 2016 at 19:45

7 Answers 7

18

This has been on my To Do list for about 6-8 weeks and I finally got a chance to run some numbers to see how often this happens and if it's enough to warrant the work involved.

Unfortunately, after looking at it, I'm not sure it's worth the effort to implement. Here's what I found since the start of the year:

Breakdown since 2016-01-01:

month    # Qs w/ Other CV  % w/ Spam Flags  % w/ spam in CV 
-------  ----------------  ---------------  --------------- 
2016-05  328               3.05             0.91                            
2016-04  1934              3.88             1.03                            
2016-03  2049              4.15             0.88                             
2016-02  1801              5.11             1.44                          
2016-01  1895              6.97             2.16    

Takeaways:

  • we get an average of 2000 posts a month which get an "other" close reason, of these
  • only 1.2% of the posts have the word "spam" in the close reason - that means that only about 24 posts a month are getting a close reason with the word you want to warn about
  • of the 2000 posts with an "other" close reason, about 4.5% pick up spam flags, so more users are flagging as spam, than closing as spam

If we were getting a higher percentage of posts with spam close reasons, then maybe we'd consider adding a warning. There are far too few posts being impacted to warrant the work, especially when the spam flags seem to be doing the job.

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  • Can you get the tendency? Are they in the rise or falling? Stable?
    – Braiam
    Commented May 5, 2016 at 16:58
  • "seem to be doing the job" = spam gets deleted anyways? My question is, how much is the deletion delayed? Commented May 5, 2016 at 17:01
  • @Braiam It's pretty consistent, I added the breakdown since Jan 2016
    – Taryn StaffMod
    Commented May 5, 2016 at 17:02
  • Seems the "% w/ spam flags" is declining steadily. Commented May 5, 2016 at 17:04
  • @JanDvorak keep in mind those are only spam flags on posts with a custom close reason as well. It's not for all posts
    – Taryn StaffMod
    Commented May 5, 2016 at 17:17
  • Would you consider this meta.stackoverflow.com/a/327682/3956566 a viable feature request? (if it gets the votes)
    – user3956566
    Commented Jul 10, 2016 at 14:03
13

Honestly, I have no idea why these things are being closed as "spam."

If you want to destroy it, then mark it as spam! I'm not sure why you want to waste a close vote, click more buttons, and even write a comment, when even all that won't mark it as spam.

These comments are really just noise, and don't serve any purpose. After all, who will see it once it is locked and deleted?

If we are really out to educate users about this though, I would prefer a warning. This way, if someone actually does have a legitimate reason with the word "spam" (say for example, implementing a spam blocking mechanism), an auto-generated comment wouldn't need to exist, as it would be inappropriate and obsolete.

Such a warning could probably go like this:

It seems like you may be trying to close this question as possible spam. You can always mark it as spam, which trains our spam filters, and helps lock and delete the question faster!

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  • 7
    It seems like you may be trying to close this question as possible spam. Are you suggesting SO gets its own Clippy?
    – Matt
    Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 14:42
  • @Matt I miss those things from word :(
    – Zizouz212
    Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 15:05
  • 2
    The Clippy remark has merit. Lets not call or design it as a warning, as warnings fall in the category "not an error and thus not my problem" and by the laws of physics as dictated by the Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy, they are completely invisible to the eye unless viewed from a really specific angle. Its "personal assistance" :)
    – Gimby
    Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 15:30
  • "I'm not sure why you want to waste a close vote" ... because you don't want the question to be open. I don't know how many hours you need to be up to your elbows in Java code before it stops making sense that just maybe one of our average Joe users doesn't want spam questions to be open so clicks "close." Much like if I don't want a window to be open I close it.
    – djechlin
    Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 22:38
  • why would you ever show a user a warning like that without telling them what to do.
    – djechlin
    Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 22:38
  • 1
    @djechlin If you don't want them around, then delete them by marking them as spam. That doesn't just close the question, but it locks it as well. Closing the question doesn't remove the question from the site.
    – Zizouz212
    Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 23:02
  • @Zizouz212 that's way too much business logic to teach a user who's just trying to get rid of a spam question. Find a better solution, sorry.
    – djechlin
    Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 23:03
  • @djechlin And auto-comment won't be much better. Instead of just attacking other people by telling them to think of "better" things, why don't you post a "better" answer yourself?
    – Zizouz212
    Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 23:04
  • Okay... One, whether your answer is good has little to do with my answers. Two, I've posted two answers that other people have clearly hated. I may or may not try to think of another one. I'm actually really hoping someone with better UX experience will drop by this thread and post something. In the meantime I hope an amazing SO designer reviews the totally legitimate problem being discussed in this thread and comes up with a solution that doesn't involve the phrase "educate our users," as if they don't have day jobs or something.
    – djechlin
    Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 23:07
  • 1
    @Matt April 1st isn't that far away right now and SO Clippy would be hilarious! ^^
    – AnorZaken
    Commented Mar 17, 2016 at 11:40
5

It appears that we have accidentally misdesigned our UX. There are too many ways to communicate "this doesn't belong on StackOverflow" : downvoting, vote to close and flagging. The latter two have detailed reasons.

Fixing this design problem with multiple warnings is a typical programmers' solution. Blame the user, not the design.

The correct solution would be a custom close reason "spam", at least in the UI. If it's easier on the backend to treat "close" and "flag" as two distinct groups, then silently translate a "close>spam" vote to "flag>spam".

There's an existing comment from Deduplicator "what current close option would you sacrifice?" This is based on the assumption that we shouldn't have more than 5 close reasons. The problem with that logic is: we already have 5 close reasons and 6 flag reasons, one of which is "flag>should be closed" ! That alone proves the two concepts are not orthogonal.

By merging the two dispositions, we can immediately cut down the number of reasons from 11 to 10. There's another quick win: "close>duplicate" and "flag>duplicate", which is rather ironic if you think about it.

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    Well, merging closing and flagging might be a good idea. Just a note: There's a limit to how heigh the close/flag/whatever dialog can be, without getting too unwieldy and maybe even forcing people to scroll. Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 15:16
1

When flagging a question as spam, the system should prevent you from adding a close vote, and automatically retract any close votes you have on the question, for as long as the spam flag is pending. If the user tries to add a close vote after he flagged it as spam, the system should say:

Do not add a close vote to a spam post, your spam flag makes sure the question will be closed deleted as spam properly if its real spam.

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  • 7
    If the user tries to add a close vote after having raised a spam flag, honestly the system should just ignore it. The worst that can happen is that you wasted a close vote on something that's off-topic and going to be deleted anyway. It's when you don't flag as spam that's harmful to the site at large because you're allowing spam to live longer than it should.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Feb 21, 2016 at 17:32
-6

For spam, closing makes no sense as noted above. OTOH, as @djechlin wrote "spam questions shouldn't be open" is more intuitive. Actually, spam is just garbage, and garbage should be neither open nor closed.

So let's say, a question gets flagged as spam. From now on, no closing or any other action should be possible until the "spamminess" gets resolved. Just two buttons spam and not spam, both popping up an explanation what it means.

To counter @Deduplicator's comment: After you click on not spam and confirm, you'll get the normal options back. But this is only necessary when "fun spamming invalid spam-flags" happens with a non-negligible frequency.

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  • 1
    So, because some klutz had fun spamming invalid spam-flags, I can no longer hammer the obvious dupe? Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 0:19
  • @Deduplicator See my update. My idea is just: First things first. Don't bother with anything else before we know it's no spam. +++ With my update: replace "we know" by "we know or you think".
    – maaartinus
    Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 0:32
  • Well, that might work. Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 1:22
  • I don't like this. If it is not spam but someone mistakenly flagged as such I don't want to not be able to close vote on the question. Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 12:48
-13

The flag should additionally say "and vote to close" and do so. The issue is that users think they have to leave a spam question open while the flag processes, which feels wrong, since spam questions that aren't closed are - wait for it - open. (In other words, the users are not topologists.)

8
  • While "and vote to close" gives a good indication for people that have more than 3k, it gives a confusing message to people between 15 and 3000 rep because they can only flag a question. The message should popup for higher than 3k rep people only
    – Ferrybig
    Commented Feb 21, 2016 at 16:55
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    While this is true (you can vote to close a question and flag it as spam), it should be unnecessary in practice. It takes the same number of people to trigger both actions, and given that there are so many fewer spam flags hanging out in the queue than close votes, spam should get dispatched significantly faster than the question can be closed.
    – Cody Gray Mod
    Commented Feb 21, 2016 at 16:56
  • 1
    @CodyGray I just don't think we should try to educate our users on why they should let spam questions stay open. Their common sense is fine, I'd rather our system work with that and not against it.
    – djechlin
    Commented Feb 21, 2016 at 17:54
  • 1
    This has a major downside to a particular audience... SOCVR and other spam fighters slash moderators. We flag a lot of spam each day and votes aren't refunded if a post is deleted. Why bother closing something that isn't even content but pure garbage that should be deleted? I have never seen someone answer spam. Close votes are not the right tool against spam and we shouldn't encourage anyone to think that they are. And again, this targets every single flagger instead of the limited portion of "this is spam" close-voters.
    – Kyll
    Commented Feb 21, 2016 at 21:31
  • 1
    @Kyll: Some spammers like to post a question they can answer (with a different account), to make it less obvious. And sometimes someone really falls for it... Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 0:22
  • Why waste close votes on something that is going to get destroyed? Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 12:45
  • @NathanOliver good point, if it's deleted as spam you should get your close vote back, apparently.
    – djechlin
    Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 22:34
  • @Kyll our users are probably not as passionate about using "the right tool against spam as you are." They do seem to try to get rid of it. I'm of the philosophy that the right product is the one that supports how they use it, not one that takes how they uses it and dumps instructional material on them until they better understand our intended business logic (as you understand it).
    – djechlin
    Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 22:49
-22

I would prefer a "vote to close as spam" button, which doesn't disrupt the user or redirect them somewhere. The close reason will auto flag as spam. Clearly users are finding this more intuitive, because spam questions shouldn't be open.

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    ... we don't want people to close spam. We want them to flag it as such, so that it gets auto-deleted after the sixth flag. Commented Feb 20, 2016 at 19:52
  • @JanDvorak thanks, fixed
    – djechlin
    Commented Feb 20, 2016 at 20:32
  • 2
    Hmm... Weird idea - doesn't educate - but at least it's better than having the questions unflagged. Commented Feb 20, 2016 at 20:35
  • What about limists on flags? What if there is enough flags for such vote?
    – Qwertiy
    Commented Feb 20, 2016 at 20:48
  • 10
    This is overkill. A new "vote to close as spam" button would either need to appear under a question, in the close votes main menu or in the off-topic category of the close votes menu. As such, every single close-voter will see it. The target audience of this feature is a handful of people misled to use close votes instead of flags. A non-intrusive warning tooltip would only appear when the word "spam" is entered, thus having a very low, targeted impact. As stated by Brad in the comments the annoyance due to false positives would be extremely low, probably much lower than a whole new reason.
    – Kyll
    Commented Feb 20, 2016 at 21:28
  • Which of the current close-options would you want to sacrifice for that? Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 0:20
  • @Deduplicator I wouldn't recommend sacrificing any current close-reason.
    – djechlin
    Commented Feb 22, 2016 at 22:41

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