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I posted a question on SO not to long ago and noticed that someone modified my post to do nothing but change my saying

I'm a .NET guy so not sure how all of these things work together yet.

to

I'm a .NET person so not sure how all of these things work together yet.

Are we not supposed to mention what our genders are when referring to ourselves? I'm not sure what the reasoning behind it was, any clarification as to how someone should refer to themselves in a post would be great.

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    Mmm, that isn’t a very useful change.
    – Ry- Mod
    Jun 27, 2015 at 0:42
  • 57
    Perhaps it's not about gender - the editor might think that "guy" is too informal. Either way, it's an unnecessary edit.
    – duplode
    Jun 27, 2015 at 0:47
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    I kind of wish SO required comments (not just auto-generate them) from people who edit posts authored by someone other than themselves. Then we'd know the intent behind it and what was trying to be achieved. Jun 27, 2015 at 2:27
  • 3
    @JohnathonSullinger A requirement for a revision description would be better than a comment. Those are required already, until you get to 2,000 rep.
    – TylerH
    Jun 27, 2015 at 2:45
  • 5
    I wonder if this editor has misunderstood the problem with genderised words. Referring to someone (such as oneself) as a "guy" is not problematic where the gender is known - however people do sometimes take issue with this word where it is just an assumption (programmers default to male). You can ping the editor under your question with their @username and ask, if you like.
    – halfer
    Jun 27, 2015 at 11:07
  • 19
    Anyway, such a sub-minor edit should be rejected by principle. Jun 27, 2015 at 11:08
  • 16
    I would remove the the entire sentence as @Andrew Medico did. Jun 27, 2015 at 11:13
  • 9
    Why was mentioning your gender important in the first place?
    – random
    Jun 27, 2015 at 15:06
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    Political correctness going mad. It's like in my 4yo sons textbook where words "mum" and "dad" are prohibited. instead "parent" is promoted! Last days of Rome...
    – matcheek
    Jun 28, 2015 at 8:14
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    It's a ridiculous edit. If anything, the entire sentence should have been removed - it adds nothing but fluff to the question and is not relevant.
    – J...
    Jun 28, 2015 at 22:52
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    I prefer to refer to myself as a "swingin' dick". Hope no one minds. :-D
    – Lye Fish
    Jun 28, 2015 at 22:53
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    @J...: Information about an asker's background may be helpful in cases where the solution to a problem is something which would be well-known to most people, but not to people of the asker's background. Unless the actual answer is known, it may be hard to judge whether the information is relevant. I don't consider the phrase ".NET guy" to indicate gender, but merely an informal way of saying "person whose background is more with .NET than with other languages/frameworks".
    – supercat
    Jun 28, 2015 at 23:15
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    @supercat It's still irrelevant. A question is a question - what else the asker knows, or does not know, does not matter. That he or she does not know the answer to the question is obvious or they would not have asked the question. If the answer to the question is actually very well known then it should be easily searchable and the question should be closed as either duplicate or off-topic for being lazy and low quality. If it is not easily searchable then it is a good question and should stand on its own. Biographical information about the asker does not belong.
    – J...
    Jun 28, 2015 at 23:56
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    @matcheek If you want to debate current events, let's Facebook. I accept all friend requests. This is not the venue for melodramatics about semantics in a textbook preceding the downfall of Western civilization (silly), and I find the injection of such sentiments into this space far more dismaying than any of the topics which seem to dismay you. I might find myself agreeing with you about the logo if only for the fact that it seems to have invited the fatalism that pervades conservative media into a place where it had hitherto been absent. So it goes. facebook.com/chris.baker.gr Jun 30, 2015 at 0:25
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    No - you should never mention your gender. Just use thing. "I'm a .NET thing".. But ".NET" is also exclusionary, because it's an MS platform and there are open source platforms that also use the CLR and that term might be offensive to OpenSource users - so I think that entire post of yours needs to be revised. Censors, stand by at your keyboards.
    – Gramps
    Jul 2, 2015 at 17:50

5 Answers 5

76

It looks like the guy who made the revision went searching for the term "guys" or "guy" and edited it out of a few posts... While I personally think this is a waste of time, there are much more serious things one could go looking for, at least this guy seems to be editing other issues while he's at it.

If it bothers you feel free to roll back the edit, otherwise just ignore it.

Posting here was probably enough for the moderators to take note of the issue and they'll act on it or ignore it as they see fit.

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    While it did kind of bug me, I was more or less just posting here to see if I was not supposed to in the first place. It's not worth the effort to roll it back as it's not hurting anything. Thanks for the info. Jun 27, 2015 at 1:41
37

Given that every time you post your name and picture is appended, and that SO doesn't insist we all use gender-neutral usernames, we may assume that identifying your gender in passing is fine.

Even if we take the "guy" away from your post, it's fairly obvious you are, well, a guy, or at least somebody putting in some effort to appear to be one on the internet. (Fido? Is that you?)

Personally, my main issue with the edit is that you cannot simply swap in "person" for "guy" here, the new sentence sounds clunky. If they really felt the need to remove "guy" and similar language, they should have rewritten the entire sentence, something like "I come from a .NET background...", or just removed it entirely. It sounds a bit like "I'm a beginner in...", which is usually noise.

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    Mentioning a technology one is familiar with could be helpful in getting a useful answer (e.g., "In Javascript I am used to do x, how does one do that with language y?") ... but in this specific question it's virtually not relevant, as all it add is "I don't know nuffin' about this environment".
    – Jongware
    Jun 27, 2015 at 11:08
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    I often edit out gender assumptions, but since that rule doesn't apply here, this answer seems sensible.
    – halfer
    Jun 27, 2015 at 13:26
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    @Jongware: Knowing that someone is new to an environment can sometimes be very relevant. If everyone familiar with an environment would know to try X, but newcomers wouldn't, an answer which simply said to try X might some a newcomer's problem perfectly making further suggestions irrelevant, but completely useless to anyone who would already know to try X. Many people might be reluctant to post an answer which simply said to try X if they knew nothing of the OP's expertise, but if such suggestions are what the OP needs such reluctance might prevent the OP from getting the best answer.
    – supercat
    Jun 28, 2015 at 23:09
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    The change isn't even 'more politically correct'. He's referring to himself, not making an assumption about someone else. I could maybe understand if the edit was changing an assumed 'guy' into 'person', but for himself? No. Makes no sense.
    – Rob Mod
    Jun 29, 2015 at 1:46
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    @Rob Good point. Indeed, it could be taken as misgendering. I am in favour of neutral language where possible, but there's an art to doing that in English without sounding awkward and whacking "person" in everywhere is not the way to do it. Simply putting in "developer" instead, for example, would have been better (if part of a larger edit).
    – nkjt
    Jun 29, 2015 at 10:11
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    @Jongware: The counter argument there is that while the OP may be familiar with .Net, the question isn't about .Net, and so an answer that relied on the fact the OP is familiar with .Net would be useless in the future to others who didn't have that expertise, but did have the same problem. Jun 29, 2015 at 15:53
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    The point of gender-neutral language is not to conceal your gender.
    – samgak
    Jun 30, 2015 at 4:07
16

IMO it's a ridiculous edit done in the name of political correctness and based on ignorance, since the term "guy" is now generic and can refer to males or females - it is quite commonly used in that way.

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    "speech police"? The question asked if the gendered use of "guy" was something that should have been removed. Asking if they felt their gender was important is on point to that. Don't go reading more into what isn't there
    – random
    Jun 29, 2015 at 0:53
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    The question asked on "mentioned my gender" and not about the genericised version of "guy"
    – random
    Jun 29, 2015 at 0:54
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    @random - you implied that it would have been more appropriate to change "guy" to "person" or just skirt around the whole issue - that's policing of regular, everyday speech IMO. Neither you, the OP or the the editor should "go reading more into what isn't there." As I stated in my answer, the edit is ridiculous and the fact that this should become a question here is disturbing. Can't think of more a irrelevant, mindless diversion.
    – Gramps
    Jun 29, 2015 at 0:55
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    If trying to understand the other side of the argument is policing their speech, then so be it
    – random
    Jun 29, 2015 at 1:06
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    The plural term "guys" has enjoyed some traction as gender neutral in the past decade, but (oddly) the singular term "guy" has not. When we talk about "the database guy", it sounds (to these English ears anyway) irrevocably male. I think your broad objection is to the PC approach, rather than the language itself.
    – halfer
    Jun 29, 2015 at 10:51
  • what you say is oppressive to women!
    – Dennis
    Jun 29, 2015 at 15:38
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    "Guy" (even in the plural) is not a gender neutral term. It can be used to refer to mixed-gendered groups of people, but not without erasing non-male identities, similar to the historical use of "he" to refer to a generic human. (E.g., "If someone wishes to fight the dragon, he will first have to find its lair.") As proof of this, witness the commonly used phrase "guys' night out" or the description of a non-male friend as "just one of the guys". Jun 29, 2015 at 15:51
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    @octothorpentine - I live in a BIG CITY. Groups of girls use the term "guys" to refer themselves all the time.
    – Gramps
    Jun 29, 2015 at 21:07
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    @Vector "You guys" is the only context I'm familiar with that generally being true in, and even then it still does fall under the critiques octothorpentine made of being presumptively gendered.
    – taswyn
    Jul 2, 2015 at 16:16
-27

Yes it was me. I only did this on some very recent posts as part of improvements. Only in the last 5 days or so. I did read the post and made, in most cases, significant improvements to the posts. I wanted to learn what the spread and usage of the term was and whether the usage was extensive or problematical.

In most cases the term Guys seemed to used as an unnecessary word, a filler. Many posts started with:

Hi Guys

Or Just

Guys

and ended with

Hope you Guys can help, thanks Guys

I used it (initially) to identify those that I could improve. I did read them all, improve language, code layout, and generally clarify where I could. In many cases it was a very good indicator of some very poorly worded posts.

When you look at it more holistically, I was seeing what looked like a Mens Association or a Boys club. In international usage of English the term might not always be so innocent as it appears in some local (your locality) usage of the term. It seemed to me that some people were saying "I wish to thank only the men for reading my question", or "Only males should answer this question". If you read it that way it does become more offensive. If you substitute another descriptor for a subset of the population it illustrates the issue more clearly. Other group names would not be acceptable in everyday speech anywhere.

When it is talking about an individual it is also unnecessary as the gender of the author is also irrelevant to the answer. Some people were going further and genderising and anthropomophising programs and classes in programs. Talking about "that little guy" when referring to an object and so on. A company or vendor became "some guys" and so on.

I'm concerned about equal opportunities in the technologies industries and in recruitment. There is not enough widening participation in recruitment and language can be a barrier. I was therefore sensitised to that issue. If we look back to videos of computer technology of the past some of what you can see is shocking to the modern eye.

Whatever you felt you saw, I did not change everyone I saw. I thought about what would be an improvement in wording. Yes, in a few of cases I did change the one word. I did it particularly when I thought it was introducing unnecessary information into an otherwise good piece of prose.

When looking at an individual edit it may seem simple. In this instance the one word change makes little difference. I was looking at the term in a wider context across a larger number of posts and the patterns of usage were becoming clearer.

There are about 140,000 occurrences of that word so I'm not going to do them all. I just thought a for a few days we could be less of a frat house.

But then some people like their frat house, not everyone will agree with language usage and language evolution, in the same way that not everyone lays out their code in the same way, or not everyone uses Emacs, not everyone liked the rainbow logo.

I did want to discuss it here in meta, but I had hoped to discuss the language issue in English.SE first to see what the distribution of meaning was on a global basis and report back here once I had a feel for its usage on SO as compared to the sensitivity to the term in different cultures.

However, if the term was used in a professional context in this locality, it would very definitely be considered as unprofessional as other epithets. In your locality it may not be, but do we not aspire to be a global resource?

If trying to improve is something that offends I am happy to apologise, however I am trying to be much more thoughtful and considerate than you have surmised.

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    I completely agree with what you are trying to do. Generalizing everyone as male is not the way to write your posts. In my case however, I was referring to myself. By forcing people to not refer to themselves as their own gender kind of takes away identity and reduces everyone to a common denominator. While we are all people, we are of different genders. We should treat each gender equally, by respecting the opposite gender, not by removing gender from the (general)conversation all together. That's my opinion anyway. Jun 27, 2015 at 15:12
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    Anyway, the point of my OP was for clarification. It was just weird seeing that one change when referring to one self, so I asked. Thanks for clarifying, it helps to understand what your intent was. Jun 27, 2015 at 15:15
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    I think we have some agreement here - I agree with both Brian and the OP :-)
    – halfer
    Jun 27, 2015 at 15:32
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    All of your examples are just noise and should have just been deleted. I agree with not referring to SO users in general as all male but there is almost never a good reason to refer to SO users as a group on the main site.
    – BSMP
    Jun 27, 2015 at 15:50
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    You can't fix the industry by rewriting other people's words. The crusade is ultimately pointless, and while you can appreciate the warm fuzzy feeling "I'm doing something to make the world a better place", in reality you are just abusing newly gained editorial privilege in a controversial PC binge. Jun 28, 2015 at 7:09
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    @DeerHunter Thanks. I appreciated that thought and I have a degree of resonance with it. Jun 28, 2015 at 9:19
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    I disagree with the tone and substance of DeerHunter's comment, but thanks @Brian for responding constructively. FWIW I agree with the occasional removal of "guys" etc. to chip away at gender bias, but the following guidelines probably are recommended. (1) Don't make this edit if it's the only one - try to fix other problems as well. Posts of this kind may have spelling/case/formatting errors, so try to fix those too - people here consider these edits more worthwhile.
    – halfer
    Jun 28, 2015 at 10:18
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    (2) Also, put a bit of time between such tidying, as edits push content to the front page, and whilst it's fine for the odd one just to be a recent edit, if the whole of the front page are style fixes, people tend to get annoyed. So, slow 'em down if you can :-).
    – halfer
    Jun 28, 2015 at 10:19
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    You're doing a good job Brian, nit-picking objections to a minority of individual edits aside. The "oh hai guise, can you guise help me out plz" style of question is a plague on the site, even ignoring gender bias issues.
    – samgak
    Jun 28, 2015 at 22:01
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    You edited a couple of closed questions. Your edits did not make them worthy of reopening, but the first body edit after closure pushes posts into the reopen queue, where they just make work for reviewers. If you're going to search for posts to edit, consider putting closed:no in your search. Jun 28, 2015 at 22:50
  • @JeffreyBosboom - Thanks. Noted for future reference. Jun 28, 2015 at 22:52
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    Don't you think you'd be better off going through one of the two million questions that contains the word "thanks"?
    – durron597
    Jun 29, 2015 at 15:32
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    I learned from this. Never again will I mention my gender in a post.
    – Mr Lister
    Jun 29, 2015 at 15:40
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    So, let's all use "Peeps" when addressing the Community from now on. Or is that derogatory to chicks?
    – user4624979
    Jun 29, 2015 at 16:29
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    "It seemed to me that some people were saying 'I wish to thank only the men for reading my question,' or 'Only males should answer this question.'" - This is almost certainly not the case. In the usage you describe, the term is referring to a mixed-gender group. While such statements generally don't belong on SO in the first place (see: noise,) reading them as "I wish to thank only the men" is frankly a bit absurd and almost certainly contrary to the author's intent. It is perfectly normal to use the term 'guys' in reference to a mixed-gender group.
    – reirab
    Jun 29, 2015 at 16:30
-62

This kind of edit seems like it adds zero value

An edit doesn't need to add anything of value to be worthwhile, it can be worthwhile if it removes irrelevant information or distracting noise, such as "thanks in advance". Since the gender of the person asking a question is irrelevant, removing any reference to it is an improvement to the question.

Perhaps it's not enough to justify an edit all on its own, but it is nevertheless a small improvement.

Edit: Just to address the argument that is being made by several people that the issue of gender-neutral language does not apply when someone is referencing themselves, and is only an issue when referring to a hypothetical person whose gender is not known:

This isn't entirely true. For example, the gender-neutral "police officer" has replaced the gendered "policeman". This is true even when a male police officer is referring to himself, e.g: "I am a police officer", "As a police officer, I..." etc, unless his gender is specifically relevant to what he is about to say. Statements of self-identity are also statements of group membership, and by referring to himself using the gender neutral "police officer" he is identifying himself with a group that is implicitly inclusive of both male and female police officers. Some people go over the top with enforcing this stuff but this can make the difference between someone feeling like "one of the guys" and feeling subtly excluded. If I refer to myself using the label of a group that includes both me and you then I am establishing a connection with you that is absent in the case of a group that includes me but not you.

".NET guy" isn't a job title the way "policeman" is, but I think ".NET developer" is. Perhaps if the edit had changed the sentence in question to

I'm a .NET developer so not sure how all of these things work together yet

then it would have fulfilled the dual purpose of being more gender neutral/inclusive and also being of a more "professional tone" (which is supposedly a thing here). I don't think the OP was doing anything grossly wrong in posting the original wording, and doesn't deserve any kind of criticism or finger-pointing, but that doesn't mean that such an edit isn't an improvement.

Personally I don't make these kinds of edits myself, but if someone else is doing so, there's no need to have such a strong reaction to it, particularly when they are a 2K+ rep user and approving their edits does not require other people's time.

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    this edit makes sense to me. Removing that entire sentence definitely reduces the noise. The edit that does nothing more than swap out guy with person seems pointless Jun 27, 2015 at 1:59
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    It's not pointless. The point is to make the question more gender neutral in order to make SO more inclusive. If you don't think that is a worthwhile goal then it's pointless, if you do then it isn't.
    – samgak
    Jun 27, 2015 at 2:05
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    Making the question gender neutral does not make it easier, to read search or understand.
    – Matt
    Jun 27, 2015 at 2:13
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    @Matt do you have any evidence to back up that claim, or are you just assuming it to be true? Are you sure that gendered language doesn't make any difference to how people process and understand information?
    – samgak
    Jun 27, 2015 at 2:21
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    @samgak I would argue that if people are wanting to work towards making SO accessible to all genders (as it should be), removing someone's gender from their post isn't going to solve that. That's a band-aid on a much larger problem. Jun 27, 2015 at 2:22
  • 46
    Avoiding gendered language is important when referring to a hypothetical person to whom either of a masculine or feminine pronoun may apply. Requiring that people not use gendered nouns/pronouns to refer to themselves is frankly a bit idiotic. Jun 27, 2015 at 3:43
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    @Asad there is no need for people to refer to themselves at all in questions. Why not just state the question? Any mention of their gender is superfluous. Also, your point makes no sense grammatically, there are no gendered first person pronouns in the English language so no-one will be referring to themselves with gendered pronouns.
    – samgak
    Jun 27, 2015 at 4:18
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    If it's useless information, the whole sentence should be removed; if not, the OP should be able to call himself a guy Jun 27, 2015 at 7:22
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    I don't know that people are out with pitchforks, just disagreeing with your opinion on meta that this edit is an improvement. If the editor had made significant improvements alongside this change, I'd agree that on the whole it's a good edit. Changing one word unnecessarily for your own personal taste isn't a good edit IMO. Jun 27, 2015 at 8:26
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    No pitchfork but not shy about voting down attitude the opposite of what I want SO to be—accessible, memorable answers to software questions. I don't want to see any hostility towards software gals[†], but neither do I want any move towards bland, voiceless, genderless wikipedia-speak: content as boring to read (and hard to remember) as it was to write. At SO I can post in my voice in my style as I see fit. Unless a post is CCed it stays in my name and I will choose my own style. Editing posts is for fixing them. You are not my editor. Go make your own post. [† like me] ♥ Jun 28, 2015 at 4:16
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    @samgak As to why this, in particular, was a bad edit: have you looked at the post in question here? It is a sizable question (~3K raw) of which, a single word of a single sentence was changed. Even assuming a change that we could agree upon the characterization of: [ as being a change from a distracting word, to non-distracting word ] I would never agree that it was worth changing a large post to swap out one distracting word. Nor can I agree with anyone saying that removing the sentence would make sense, as signal-to-noise just isn't even applicable in this case. Jun 28, 2015 at 4:33
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    @shelleybutterfly As I said in my answer, this kind of change might not justify an edit all on its own. However I don't think that focusing on this one specific example is constructive, the OP asked about "this kind of edit*, not "this particular edit" so I gave a general answer about edits to remove irrelevant gender-specific language in posts. P.S. I am your editor, because we are all each others editors, that's how the site works.
    – samgak
    Jun 28, 2015 at 4:41
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    @samgak No, you're not. In fact, if you go edit some of my posts for style, I will revert you. We're each other's editors in order to improve the quality of the site, not to make editorial decisions upon other's posts. Perhaps the ambiguity in "editor" is at issue? I meant it as in the type of "editor" that, up until fairly recently, one wishing to publish a work would have to submit their work to, and get the approval of, in order to have it published. Well, SO is one place I publish, but I repeat: you are not my editor, at least, not in that sense. We're copyeditors, not style editors. Jun 28, 2015 at 9:20
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    @samgak as for your 'well, my post wasn't saying this was a good edit' response: well, I wasn't addressing your post, I was addressing your comment anotherdave, in which you make a specific statement that you believe it is a good edit, and are "bewildered" at the response to it. You:"I agree it would have been an even better edit if it had removed the whole sentence, but that doesn't make it a bad edit." [emphasis mine]. I don't know what's productive or not, but you actually stated it was (at least) an inoffensive edit, and I responded to you. Jun 28, 2015 at 9:47
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    @shellybutterfly style editing is part of copy editing, by definition. Your second comment seems like hairsplitting. I can state that a particular change improves a post and is a "good edit" while conceding that it probably isn't substantial enough on it's own. The second point is fairly irrelevant anyway IMO since that's true for lots of other uncontroversial edits too e.g. small grammatical fixes.
    – samgak
    Jun 28, 2015 at 10:53

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