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Problem Statement: Each time someone makes a bad close vote, 3 people spend their time - waste their time - to reject it.

I'm not aware of any "corrective pressure" in this situation - I mean: what happens to stop the well-intentioned bad-close-voter from repeating their mistake?

Can we add something to do this - one or both of

  • education (it's highly likely that they are unaware that it happened)
  • penalisation (I don't know what form that would take, but removing the privilege to close vote seems obvious)

Background:

I'm curious what, if anything, happens when a close vote is rejected through the close vote queue?

Something that I'm finding irritating is the number of questions nominated for closure as "unclear what you're asking" when it is patently clear what they are asking.

This happens for a couple of apparent reasons that I've started to see repeatedly:

  • Carelessness: the question looks like something else - for example, a homework question, or a question that is too broad, and the close-voter has not looked carefully enough to see that actually there is a solid question. e.g Which object does name "g" binds to?
  • Nitpicking: The question text doesn't contain an explicit question statement with a question mark ... but it's usually blindingly obvious that the question is "why am I getting this error" or similar.

In the context of the ever-swelling close vote queue, this feels to me like something that needs some back pressure applied. Otherwise, the close-vote reviewers are subjected to time and again rejecting votes from the same source.

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    What about people who vote to reopen crap? Should we "fix" that too? May 21, 2015 at 8:26
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    I'm not sure about the purpose of your probably-rhetorical question, @FrédéricHamidi . If you have evidence that reopening crap is systemically a problem, then propose that it gets back pressure too. Maybe that is what you are doing? The quotes around "fix" make your statement appear sarcastic. If it is genuine ... It strikes me that the same basic strategies for applying backpressure would be applicable in both cases. But for me the starting point is further back: I don't know what back pressure currently even exists... May 21, 2015 at 8:30
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    Nah, that was not sarcasm as much as expressing my doubts that "wrong" close votes have to be "fixed". Five votes are required in the first place, and if five close voters do go wrong at the same time, then the question can still be reopened by five others. I honestly don't think applying "pressure" would add anything, except making users more wary to close questions, which could be counter-productive given the amount of questions that should be closed. May 21, 2015 at 8:51
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    I think you have missed my point. My experience is that my time (and 4 other close vote reviewer's time) is being wasted by people who carelessly or pedantically raise "unclear what you are asking" close votes. My feeling is that this could be countered by some backpressure event happening at the time that their close vote is rejected by 5 reviewers. Otherwise they just keep doing it, I fear.... May 21, 2015 at 8:54
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    I wasn't aware close votes could be rejected from the review queue. Last time I checked, enough reviewers choosing "Leave Open" only took the question out of the review queue and had no effect on close votes (they do expire as usual though). Which kind of backpressure do you think of applying in this context? May 21, 2015 at 8:59
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    Let's call that event "take the question out of the review queue" as "rejection". At that point, the person has clocked up a "rejection". Clock up a certain number of those and you get warned. Clock up more and ... etc. That's the backpressure I have in mind. May 21, 2015 at 9:01
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    We could imagine a warning like the one we have in place for flags (e.g. some of your recent close votes have been challenged in review, please pay attention). Other than that, reducing the number of close votes does not strike me as efficient (the user can still wrongly close questions, only fewer of them), and outright revoking close vote privileges strikes me as too efficient -- we don't want people to stop closing questions because of a few mistakes. May 21, 2015 at 9:05
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    Yes, I didn't mean to propose reducing the number of close votes necesarily. What I think needs to happen is negative feedback to people who are raising flags poorly, so they can lessen that. If that doesn't happen already (something I'm still kind of ignorant about) May 21, 2015 at 9:09
  • Isn't the ever swelling close vote queue not a product of the ever swelling number of people using SO? That will also automatically swell the number of mistakes made with all the best intentions in the world. Its not a problem, just a statistic of success.
    – Gimby
    May 21, 2015 at 11:55
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    @Gimby I've argued the same - that it is a measure of success. However, swelling numbers call for appropriate measures to deal with their effects. It both a statistic of success and a problem. Note that it is only the CVQ that is currently "barely in control" (hovering at 8k votes waiting for processing) , and hence why it is the focus of my question. May 21, 2015 at 11:58
  • I understand the need to solve a problem, I just don't agree with your reasonings about what causes it. A solution needs to be found in entirely different ways that do not involve generic feedback; if this problem is to reduce then people making the honest mistakes of wrongly voting need to have better tools available to them to self-correct.
    – Gimby
    May 21, 2015 at 13:33
  • Hmm. You say they are perfectly clear. This could be related: meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/258432/…
    – Raedwald
    May 21, 2015 at 19:16
  • Yeah - I'm consicious of that one Raewald: I had seen that before. I think that the delineation is always going to be a grey line. However, in the context of this question/proposal, if 5 people have voted that the question is clear, then ... it probably is, by the working definition whatever that is. That's why I think that is the time to apply backpressure on the flagger, to calibrate them. BTW, the CVQ is at a peak of 9k today.... May 21, 2015 at 22:05
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    @FrédéricHamidi, re: "enough reviewers choosing "Leave Open" only took the question out of the review queue and had no effect on close votes (they do expire as usual though)" A successful "Leave open" review also starts the close vote aging process immediately, regardless of the other usual aging factors being true.
    – jscs
    May 28, 2015 at 19:41
  • Somewhat related: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/248267/…
    – apaul
    May 29, 2015 at 0:01

2 Answers 2

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The way I look at it, the penalty for voting to close incorrectly is death. What do I mean? Well, every close vote that you cast eats up some small amount of your life. Your precious, precious time. Eventually, all of your time will be gone, and you will be dead.

So, the question that everyone has to ask themselves is, will you go to your grave having willingly spent your life casting meaningless votes that accomplished nothing? Will you waste the precious seconds of your life on such an empty pursuit?

I am not sure that there exists any greater penalty—at least, not one that is within our power to apply.

In other words, I think this problem is self-regulating.

Ultimately, the decision to vote to close a specific question is an inherently subjective one. There's naturally going to be some disagreement among users who participate in the process. This is why we generally require a consensus of multiple users in order to effect the closure (or re-opening) of a question. Some level of disagreement is expected, even healthy.

But the users whose close votes are repeatedly ignored or overridden by the community will, eventually, give up and decide to do something more productive with the time they have left.

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    Combining your logic with the OP's assertion that eir time is being wasted results in the conclusion that the incorrect close-voters are killing reviewers via microdoses of stolen life. That doesn't make this a particularly satisfactory answer.
    – jscs
    May 28, 2015 at 19:38
  • There's another option, @Josh...
    – Shog9
    May 28, 2015 at 19:45
  • @JoshCaswell Spot ON!!! We could paraphrase my suggestion here to say "Lets discourage MURDER". Bad voters are MURDERING reviewers. Surely that's worth some counterpressure.... May 28, 2015 at 22:40
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    This answer appears to be addressed to bad-close-voters. My suggestion here could be also be reworded to say "How can we make well intentioned bad-close-voters aware of their peril?". We can see them suffering, wasting their time casting meaningless votes that accomplish nothing. Are we to sit by and do nothing? Or should we apply backpressure - even in the form of education, if not disuastion, to save them (and incidentally the reviewers) from this, the most horrendous penalty? In the face of this, how can we stand by and do nothing? May 28, 2015 at 22:45
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    You COULD re-word it that way, @green... And that would probably be a more productive discussion.
    – Shog9
    May 28, 2015 at 22:49
  • I gave it a shot. Further improvements welcome. May 28, 2015 at 22:54
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    Nihilists may not have this problem. Jun 20, 2021 at 14:51
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Considering one person cannot close a question on their own, the ramifications of bad close votes should be fairly small. Since the question can just as easily be re-opened, it is a non issue.

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  • You have missed the ramification that I am addressing. The ramification of bad close votes is lots of close votes in the close vote queue, wasting hours of 5 people per bad close vote to correct them. That is not a "small ramification". May 28, 2015 at 3:35
  • That is not a 'ramification'. The queue does not require action.
    – GEOCHET
    May 28, 2015 at 3:39
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    Can you clarify what you mean by "the queue does not require action"? In order to operate as designed, it certainly requires action: questions flagged for closure only get "on hold" after assessment in the close vote queue. May 28, 2015 at 3:45
  • The site functioned fine without the queue and would function fine if no one reviewed the queue. No action is required.
    – GEOCHET
    May 28, 2015 at 3:52
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    The premise of the suggestion here does not depend on whether or not the close vote queue benefits the site. The fact is that that the close vote queue is part of the current moderation mechanisms on the site. Another fact is that community moderators support this mechanism with their time and effort. The amount of effort required to do that could be reduced by providing backpressure on bad voting. May 28, 2015 at 4:06
  • Except, like my answer says, the 'problem' is not a problem and the 'solution' only makes a larger problem.
    – GEOCHET
    May 28, 2015 at 4:15
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    I'm not clear how it's "not a problem" that 5-people-per-bad-vote spend their time assessing each bad vote and rejecting it, without any resulting encouragement on the bad-voter to not do that again? Neither have you described what "larger problem" giving bad-voters discouragement from doing it again would create. I agree that a different solution would be to not process the CVQ at all. If you are recommending that, please say so. However, the suggestion I am making is one that doesn't change existing moderation arrangements. May 28, 2015 at 4:22
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    It only takes three people to kick a question out of the queue, @Green. Heck, questions get kicked out after a few days if every just ignores them. Worst-case, bogus votes age away after a few weeks with no action required at all. See: meta.stackexchange.com/questions/136989/…
    – Shog9
    May 28, 2015 at 19:33
  • @GEOCHET While you may not agree with my assessment of the problem, at least I stated what the I think problem is. In contrast, you have sserted that the solution makes a larger problem, but haven't even said what that is. May 28, 2015 at 22:32
  • @Shog9 My suggestion is not directed at the problem of how to get bad questions out of the CVQ. IE the fact that they expire in there is not pertinent. The "Problem Statement" is : when a badly flagged question gets into the CVQ, it wastes 3 peoples (not 5, I learn) time in looking at it. Surely eliminating waste like that is worth doing?? May 28, 2015 at 22:39
  • "at least I stated what the I think problem is" -- And I did my part in telling you that your assessment is incorrect.
    – GEOCHET
    May 29, 2015 at 0:29

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