4

Let's start with a review of the purpose of Meta.SO:

Meta Stack Overflow is the part of the site where users discuss the workings and policies of Stack Overflow rather than discussing programming itself.

Recently a question was featured about "Volunteer to help mentor one of 16 women starting a career in programming".

This is not about the workings or policies of Stack Overflow. It is, pure and simple, recruiting for a position teaching programming.

There have been other Meta posts concerning this, which took a rather political stance presuming it was discriminatory. On both the main post and subsequent posts, there have been a large number of comments pointing out that, as valuable as recruitment and discussions of gender politics may be, neither Stack Overflow nor Meta.SO are the appropriate place for them. They were drowned out by political grandstanders. There has additionally been censorship of comments concerning the pertinent and on-topic discussion of whether this recruitment post should be permitted on Meta.

It is true that it is of interest to many programmers who spend time on Stack Overflow. So are many other questions that we don't permit, including every other recruitment question.

I am not making a value judgement about mentoring, efforts to provide opportunities for females to learn programming, efforts to find them female mentors, or whether the sexes should learn from each other. I am merely trying to prevent Stack Overflow and its Meta from slouching into Yahoo! Answers or Quora or any other site where nothing is off-topic.

I am upset about the broken window encouraging similar posts. Several other users have expressed that they'd welcome similar proposals from sources other than the Stack Exchange team, but I don't think there is any community consensus to turn Meta into a volunteer recruitment zone.

I am upset about the misuse of , when discussion about the merits is not actually solicited (the question explicitly says that answers should be used to request further information). It seems to me that the fact none of the four mandatory tags for Meta questions actually fits the post should have been a strong clue that it is off-topic.

I am upset about the elitism whereby the Stack Exchange team believes that the rules do not apply to them. Yes, they pay for the servers and bandwidth. So let them add a banner promoting their blog post concerning the mentoring effort. But don't set a bad example.

Do you agree that Meta is not the right venue for volunteer recruitment for any purpose except providing content and moderation of Stack Overflow and Meta.SO?

21
  • 34
    Ugh, give it a rest. Enough already. Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 22:48
  • 10
    @Hans: Trying to provide a constructive place to have this discussion because the only real problem with the discussion seems to be that it's mixed in with the main post. That way all the comments on the main post can be cleaned up with a link to take the discussion here.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 23:03
  • 1
    @animuson: I agree -- but at the moment it's really hard to know what votes on the question mean. We need someone offering some proposed solutions, with rationale, to get anywhere.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 23:07
  • 5
    But posting extremely short answers and asking people to vote on their favorite is the least constructive thing you could do here.
    – animuson StaffMod
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 23:09
  • 1
    The way I see it, the post serves both as an informational post to declare what this whole thing is about, and as a way for us to ask questions/give feedback about it in a discussion format. I'm not upset about the fact that it was asked or presented, but perhaps there should have been two sides to it, with the other side being a blog post about it? I really don't know how one would handle this situation without getting someone's feathers ruffled. How do you tap the community's resources for something like this while maintaining the status quo? I can't think of an answer now.
    – Makoto
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 23:17
  • "Hard to know what votes on the question mean" -- for voters as well as viewers. I upvoted originally because I liked the program, but I removed it because I don't really want that kind of Meta post to happen again.
    – jscs
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 23:21
  • 3
    Problem is there are only two vote buttons, and at least five positions that I know of. (1) Not worth having the discussion, expressed by Hans (2) The recruitment post belonged elsewhere (3) Due to the overriding value of this program, it belongs on SO.Meta but no other one ever will (4) Recruitment is ok as long as it has the SE team blessing (5) Recruitment for volunteering/mentoring is ok
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Aug 28, 2014 at 23:25
  • 1
    This text was so deep, that I couldn't pay attention. Can someone explain to me what he wants in English?
    – Ryan
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 1:11
  • After a nice long debate with myself, I have decided that this is a well written question and has been handled very well. While I disagree with the overall premise of your question here, I do agree that this discussion needed to happen in a non-ranty, non-flamey way.
    – Kendra
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 13:45
  • 1
    @BenVoigt, I don't want to edit your title, but I think "Stack Exchange blessed" isn't really accurate. We occasionally use meta when we want to talk to our community about things we're doing (this mentor program, when we are trying to hire CMs, etc.) The heading implies we sometimes let third parties use it as soapbox, but the issue you're objecting to is really us using to talk about things other than the current product.
    – Jaydles StaffMod
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 15:21
  • 3
    @BenVoigt I think it's even more direct - facilitated still implies we're advocating for someone else. What you're really suggesting, I think, is that WE shouldn't be able to use meta to talk about things we wouldn't let another group or company use it for. (Which, to be fair, has a pleasant consistency, but we've intermittently used it to reach out to the community for other such things, like contests, CM hires, etc.)
    – Jaydles StaffMod
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 15:29
  • 1
    @Kendra: I don't quite think I avoided ranting, but I tried very hard to avoid getting into the merits of the mentorship program and focus solely on the "question-is-an-advertisement-for-an-external-mentor-application-form-and-answers-are-for-questions-about-that-application" issue. I expressly wanted to avoid the route that caused other objections to flame out. And even the diamond mods here defending the post are talking up the discussion potential which the post did not invite.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 15:30
  • 2
    @Jaydles: Contests, moderator elections, and CM hires are about "the workings of Stack Overflow" though, in a way this mentorship program is not -- unless there's some major piece missing from the original exposition, such as an announcement that mentoring tools are being added / considered for addition to the Q&A platform.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 15:32
  • 2
    @Jaydles: Even the previous mentoring discussions on SO have been focused around teaching people to write good questions and answers on SO, not programming mentorship.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 15:35
  • 1
    @BenVoigt, I'm not sure that's intuitive to me - seems like the contests often have nothing to do with the product (Limericks for mugs?). The truth is that we like to err on the side of being open, and when we want to talk to our community directly, and allow for feedback, Meta is the place we'll tend to do it, but we obviously need to be respectful and judicious of how and when we do it.
    – Jaydles StaffMod
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 15:39

3 Answers 3

9

The Meta post was -- and still is -- about one particular undertaking. It explicitly a) calls for interested people to fill out a form elsewhere, and b) requests (logistical?) questions as answers. I don't understand how this was designed to solicit debate and discussion about an idea, nor what kind of debate and discussion Stack Exchange expected. Especially given that the very first answer posted, which expressed an (admittedly terse) opinion about the program, was deleted within a minute by an SE employee who was also (one of at least two) wading right into the "nasty politics" under the question.*

This wasn't presented as a discussion, and it wasn't at all clear -- and still isn't -- how Stack Exchange thought this related to Stack Overflow as a site/community. It's just a recruitment poster: here's this group of people we can throw this in front of, let's see if any of them would like to volunteer. I think the program sounds awesome, but it doesn't have anything to do with Stack Overflow besides SE drawing from the site as a talent pool.

The call should have gone on the blog. A Meta post "We're doing this (check the blog). We're thinking about possibly maybe stuff like this in the future. Can that dovetail in some way with Stack Overflow? Are you people interested?" would have been entirely welcome as a companion piece.

Stack Exchange, this just wasn't done right; I sincerely appreciate the fact that you thought you needed to ask us about the broader idea, but you didn't actually ask anything. You threw a really specific item in front of us as a foregone conclusion, and then got miffed when people reacted to that specific item. And again, now, when someone's trying to discuss what might have caused the situation to go off the rails.

Here's hoping we can make this work better the next time.


*And -- although I completely disagree with the opinion -- it's questionable why the idea that a women-only program is the wrong thing for Stack Overflow is political instead of a part of the requested debate.**

**And why the opinion that the post has nothing to do with Stack Overflow -- partially expressed via close votes -- is not part of that debate.

4
  • 2
    Your answer is better composed than Ben's question. Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 10:11
  • 3
    @InfiniteRecursion: I think my question succeeded in marking out territory for a constructive discussion about topicality. I saw the need after meta.stackoverflow.com/q/270054/103167, where the "It's not about programming, and it's not about SO, so I don't want to see it" point got lost within the first two comments. And yes, to serve as a central repository, so other comments can be sent here, and other Meta posts can be closed as dupe. Is it perfect? No. Does it cover every point Josh made? Actually, yes.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 13:14
  • 3
    But I love this answer.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 13:14
  • 2
    I agree @Ben. In fact, you started a very constructive discussion related to the recruitment post, and it is a topic which needed discussion. You question is an ideal dupe target for discussion on this topic. Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 13:19
32

I'm so sick of this nonsense.

The only sane reason for posting something like that here is to solicit discussion and debate from the community.

Meta sure as hell is not the best way to promote something, a fact I wish we could convince the nightly supplement spammers of; compared to SO, it barely gets any views. Even featured in the bulletin, posts here get a fraction of the traffic they'd get if we ran a blog post or an ad campaign. But a blog post doesn't really allow for discussion, and attracts a disproportionate amount of traffic from external gawkers who add noise and HackerNews kibitzing. Sometimes that's appropriate, I guess - although I'm honestly hard-put to see why anymore. ...Point is,

If you honestly want to know what someone's opinion is, you go to their house, stand on their doorstep and ask them. You don't drag them out into the street and yell at them in front of the neighbors. This is your house; we wanted your opinion, so we're here - foot in the door and all.

I don't care about your politics, and you shouldn't care about mine - that's not what this is about. This is about getting better at educating programmers, part of Stack Overflow's reason for existing - and a trial program we're using to see if this is a direction worth pursuing. If you have an opinion on that, disagreements, concerns... We sure as hell do want to hear them, and I'm most grateful to the folks who scrolled past the pointless political posturing and actually provided that.

"Elitism" is doing this stuff - using the brand, the user database, the ad inventory - without giving anyone a place to provide feedback. Elitism is directing criticism into blog comments that no one reads or can express agreement with. If you feel abused because we tried to discuss this here and some of it devolved into nasty politics, I'm truly sorry - I promise we'll do our best to make the next discussion more constructive. But I'm not going to apologize for trying to discuss it here, on the site built for discussion relevant to Stack Overflow. Because I know for a fact that this does matter to folks on Stack Overflow, because of their place on Stack Overflow, and if there's a solution to be had it's going to be with the help of the folks who make up Stack Overflow, for the benefit of the folks coming to Stack Overflow.

And talking about that... Well, that's meta.

15
  • Sorry if this is off-topic, but what are "the nightly supplement spammers"?
    – Mike M.
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 0:41
  • 5
    Humans who are hired to hawk a wide variety of sketchy wares, creating accounts and working to circumvent spam-prevention mechanisms in the process. Mostly come out at night. Mostly.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 0:42
  • Ah, gotcha. Thanks. For some reason, that just wasn't jibing in my head. I thought you were referring to paid advertisers or something.
    – Mike M.
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 0:50
  • 5
    It's not surprising that the same individuals who are against using meta to help newbie programmers are against SE inc. using Meta to garner feedback about helping newbie programmers. It's disheartening, but not surprising.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 0:53
  • 10
    Amen.... I am sick of the meta posts that the original post in question spawned. I respect the fact that many users had problems with the original idea (although I am embarrassed by the negative reaction by what I hope is a very vocal minority), but ultimately the post itself is no different than a post announcing a new feature or asking for feedback of a proposed idea, so doesn't need to be treated any differently. Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 0:55
  • @Shog9: I've seen that movie. "Yeah, but it's a dry heat."
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 1:16
  • 2
    I think it would have been perfectly reasonable to post on meta to ask whether recruitment should be on topic. Someone skipped that step...
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 2:02
  • 4
    So the recruitment post is actually an invitation to discussion about whether the recruitment is a good idea and whether Meta is the place to have it? Surprising, because here's what that question actually says: "If you have any questions, feel free to post them as an answer here, and we'll respond in the comments." Admittedly, the actual answers seems to have moved in the direction of an on-topic Meta discussion, despite the original post. Perhaps the question under discussion is in need of a good rewording. Tools for providing mentoring within the SO environment are on-topic, as you say.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 2:09
  • 4
    Because really, nothing in that original question expresses "We're discussing using Stack Overflow for mentoring." The whole thing talks about mentoring activities outside the realm of SO. And just because educating programmers is SO's goal does not mean that anything related to programming education is on-topic. Advertising Computer Science courses wouldn't be tolerated. Asking how CS courses can better deal with homework being posted on SO, would.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 2:12
  • 3
    As I said, we'll do a better job of encouraging discussion from the outset next time, @Ben - I did add some context with my answer there, but that could've been cross-linked from the start. Mea culpa; we live and learn.
    – Shog9 Mod
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 3:45
  • I think we all are equally sick of this nonsense. If any more posts on this topic come up, this post can be used as a dupe target for closing them. Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 10:05
  • 1
    I think "I'm so sick of this nonsense." sums up very well why there's a non-trivial minority upset with the moderation. You can't please all of the people all of the time, but you can engage with them and make them feel their opinions are being heard. Instead the S.E. line on why it's on-topic has been bludgeoned through. Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 11:22
  • 2
    @GeorgeStocker "It's not surprising that the same individuals who are against using meta to help newbies are against SE using Meta to garner feedback about helping newbies" - I think that's a bad way of summarizing the issues here, and it's simply untrue. For example, I am against mentoring people on meta.SO as it doesn't fit the "high quality content repository" goal of SO (and can even be seen as detrimental to it), yet I have no problem with SE discussing their project here (although I initially asked why a meta.SO post was used, which arguably sparked all these discussions).
    – l4mpi
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 13:32
  • That said, I think these meta-meta-meta-discussions are getting a bit out of hand... I don't see a particular reason for all the outrage and the way Bens question is expressed is not very constructive; even though he has a point IMO - if projects like this become more common, SE should probably think of a better way of announcing and discussing them than posting a meta.SO question.
    – l4mpi
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 13:32
  • I don't always agree with Shog9, but reading this today made me happy.
    – vol7ron
    Commented Jun 28, 2015 at 1:36
19

At the end of the day, it's SE's sandbox. That accords them a bit of latitude.

It's nice that they let us play in it, and even change the color of the sand once in awhile. But ultimately, we are invited guests. If they decide they'd like to promote something on their own platform, that's largely up to them to decide (and then take the lumps that go with that).

That we turned the mentoring question into a debate over gender equality is not really their fault.

The broken windows thing is largely a red herring. Sure, we like to keep the place clean, but Stack Overflow still manages to function even though it's got numerous broken windows (and always will), and people will still find ways to break the windows, even if you don't show them how they can.

The whole "censored comments" thing is a red herring too. Executive summary: "Should this be posted here?" and "reverse discrimination." People were asked to respond to the post by raising issues in an answer, so that they could be discussed. The people whose comments were deleted either failed to heed that advice, or subsequently posted an answer.

3
  • 4
    A bit of a difference between common broken windows and ones carrying the Featured tag, in my opinion.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 0:27
  • 6
    And the censorship implies that they had no way to talk about it -- they did, by posting an answer. They chose instead to comment, knowing that comments are deleted for a myriad of reasons. I'd they really wanted their argument to stick around, an answer was their best bet; otherwise it's just complaining.
    – George Stocker Mod
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 0:35
  • 3
    @George: The question specifically said that answers were to be used for questions about applying to become a mentor. I mean, here, direct quote: "If you're interested in being a mentor in this online component of our Flatiron fellowship, let us know by filling out this form. If you have any questions, feel free to post them as an answer here, and we'll respond in the comments." After seeing that, it's no surprise that people kept other sorts of discussion out of the answers.
    – Ben Voigt
    Commented Aug 29, 2014 at 2:10

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .