27

I seen this answer promoting their own product, called Flurl, given on a question discussing the differences between RestSharp and ServiceStack.

Add to "Cons" side for ServiceStack:

It's a commercial product. Unless you're ok with a very limited version or a very old version, you'll need to pony up to use it.

Add to "Cons" side for RestSharp:

It isn't particularly active anymore (though kudos to Haack for continuing to accept pull requests). It's always been a fantastic library but I think it's safe to say that the arrival of HttpClient has made a bit less indispensable.

[Begin shameless plug]

As the project lead of Flurl, I'd recommend adding it to your list of possible options in this area.

Flurl

Pros

  • Modern. Async exclusively, HttpClient and Json.NET under the hood.
  • Portable.
  • Fluent API that lets you get things done in about as little code as humanly possible.
  • Testing features that allow you to globally fake and record all HTTP calls made by the test subject.
  • Allows you to register global callbacks, useful for things like error handling and logging.
  • Highly extensible and open. Manipulate the underlying HttpClient directly if you need to.
  • Active project. Seeking any and all feedback and suggestions!

Cons

  • Far less mature than the others.
  • Far less feature-rich than the others. (Aims for the most common 90% cases, provides extensibility hooks for the rest.)

[End shameless plug]

Is this answer appropriate?

I'm at a loss to decide whether the answer is appropriate, because the title is a discussion about RestSharp and ServiceStack, and while they have addressed both RestSharp and ServiceStack, they have only done so with dubious cons, which given the source is a bias to sway the reader towards their offering.

The claim about ServiceStack being commercial is incorrect in context to the question being asked. The question is specifically addressing the client functionality of ServiceStack, which remains free, though the server technology has been made commercial in recent releases.

From the ServiceStack Official Website (See bottom of page):

Service Clients are unrestricted

Explicitly included in the free quotas is an exception enabling free, unrestricted use of ServiceStack Service Clients for calling any ServiceStack service.

Had this answer not been used to promote their own product, and simply added to the discuss of the topic, i.e. ServiceStack and RestSharp, then I would have simply commented informing the answerer of the misinformation, but I feel this answer is out of place.

I appreciate the answerer disclosed the that they are involved in the project, but I feel they are throwing incorrect information out there in favour of self promotion, and the question doesn't call for other products to be discussed.

tldr;

  • The question is about ServiceStack and RestSharp
  • ServiceStack's client offering remains free and is actively maintained
  • RestSharp while not hugely active is still being updated
  • The answerer has used the answer to state ServiceStack is no longer free you'll need to pony up to use it., this is misinformation
  • The answered has used the answer to promote their own library, which is neither the ServiceStack client or RestSharp

Should I down vote or flag?

Is this self promotion at the expense of wrong information about the subject matter something that should be flagged or simply down voted?

22
  • 10
    Definitely downvote, and I personally would flag. Jul 31, 2014 at 21:17
  • 14
    Whole question should be closed as primarily opinion related Jul 31, 2014 at 21:21
  • 1
    Voted to close the question. The OP has been promoting their tool on other questions too: stackoverflow.com/search?q=user%3A62600+flurl
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Jul 31, 2014 at 21:24
  • 2
    @staticx I have often thought that; but since the OP is a high rep user as is the accepted answerer and accepted answer is highly voted, I guess it is somewhat valuable.
    – Scott
    Jul 31, 2014 at 21:25
  • 1
    @MartijnPieters: Top three I have looked at do actually answer the question the right way Jul 31, 2014 at 21:26
  • 1
    @staticx: yeah, it is a fine line, but they don't disclose their affiliation in most of these.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Jul 31, 2014 at 21:27
  • 1
    @MartijnPieters: He should at least disclose it in his profile, but that's not the case. Jul 31, 2014 at 21:27
  • Some of the questions don't help either, they are direct requests for recommendations, like this one: C# Url Builder Class
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Jul 31, 2014 at 21:29
  • 4
    I'd evaluate it the exact same way as if he didn't own the product. Jul 31, 2014 at 21:32
  • 5
    @staticx I accidentally declined one of your flags before I saw all of the information on this. Sorry about that. Jul 31, 2014 at 21:56
  • 4
    I've disclosed in my profile and will explicitly in any future answers. Thanks for pointing that out. Aug 1, 2014 at 14:29
  • 2
    @Scott Done with all but one. Got this message on the very last one: "You have already edited 10 of your own posts today (excluding very recent posts); further edits are not allowed until tomorrow." I'll take care of it tomorrow. Aug 1, 2014 at 15:36
  • 10
    If the answer is useful including its content owned from the author what's the problem? Envy?
    – user3899824
    Aug 1, 2014 at 20:27
  • 1
    @user3899824 It's not about envy. Nobody is questioning the suitability or usefulness of the tool, it could very well be an amazing tool, but my primary concern was the incorrect information about ServiceStack. Secondly the question was not about other tools. Thirdly the whole question was off topic. Moderation of SO has nothing to do with envy, certainly not my moderation anyway. I felt it didn't fit with the site rules, so I asked the question here to seek confirmation. If it were on topic then I personally wouldn't have a problem.
    – Scott
    Aug 1, 2014 at 20:55
  • 1
    Immediately flag as spam. No mercy. Aug 3, 2014 at 8:33

3 Answers 3

28

Asking for a list of pros and cons is definitely off-topic, so that whole question was rightly shut down. The top answer is fine because there's a disclosure of affiliation right at the top. The answer you linked to is a little too self-promotional. The original question asked about ServiceStack and RestSharp specifically, so bringing up Flurl when nobody asked about it looks like astroturfing, particularly when there's no disclosure of affiliation.

A few of this user's other posts mention Flurl without disclosure, but the ones I've seen look like otherwise good answers. They do explain how the library solves a problem, with examples included. I've sent the user a mod message asking them to include full disclosure when they promote their own project.

8
  • 24
    It looks like there's disclosure in the quoted material: [Begin shameless plug] As the project lead of Flurl, … While it doesn't say 'disclosure', it certainly seems to disclose the affiliation to me. The 'shameless plug' is also clearly marked. Aug 1, 2014 at 6:30
  • 5
    So what would this "full disclosure" look like - has SE adopted this term as jargon to mean something specific? As @JonathanLeffler mentions, he has disclosed his association fully. Aug 1, 2014 at 7:00
  • @JonathanLeffler Ah, I missed that part. My mistake. Aug 1, 2014 at 11:03
  • 2
    That's a completely fair assessment of my answers and a reasonable request. Thanks, and lesson learned. Aug 1, 2014 at 15:20
  • 5
    Is asking for a list of pros and cons off topic? As far as I know, a pro or a con isn't opinion based, only the conclusion you draw from the pros and cons is an opinion.
    – mason
    Aug 1, 2014 at 20:17
  • @mason It can be. For example, you might call something a bug and I call it a feature.
    – bjb568
    Aug 2, 2014 at 3:37
  • 2
    @bjb568 That's injecting opinion into it, when you should be reporting the facts and letting the OP draw their own conclusions based on the best available information you can give them.
    – mason
    Aug 2, 2014 at 3:54
  • @mason Yes, so asking people to list pros and cons should be closed as POB. Or Too Broad, since lists are too broad.
    – bjb568
    Aug 2, 2014 at 3:56
69

I want to chime in with a couple thoughts. [Disclaimer: I'm the author of Flurl, and you guys have my full attention.]

  1. I deeply regret having posted the answer in question and have deleted it. I will attempt to explain my rationale for the post. It was an older question, and in my estimation the 2 products being compared have become less viable in recent years due to the reasons I gave. RestSharp's author, the company formerly known as John Sheehan, bluntly states in the same question: "Don't use RestSharp. Use something that's still being worked on." It seemed, at the time, like suggesting an alternative "something" might be welcomed. Turns out I was dead wrong about ServiceStack (honest mistake), and in hindsight I did not directly answer the question asked, and in that regard the whole thing was a bad answer.

  2. Regarding some of my other answers, it's true that I didn't explicitly attribute myself as the author. My rationale at the time was that it might come across as arrogant to say "hey look at me I wrote this!" As I use my real name on SO, GitHub, NuGet, etc, I figured anyone interested enough to follow the links would connect the dots pretty quickly. It was never my intention to "astroturf" or cloak the fact that I am the author. Again, lesson learned. I've disclosed my affiliation in my profile, in all past answers, and will in any future answers where I mention Flurl.

  3. Regarding "shameless plugging" of open source projects. After writing Flurl, I thought what better way to get the word out than to answer relevant SO questions where it could genuinely help the person asking the question? In my mind, the very nature of small open source projects is programmers helping programmers for free, and if there is pride or brownie points involved, so be it, so long as the those motives are in line with the main goal of helping other programmers. Sounds an awful lot like the definition of an SO answer, doesn't it? So generally speaking, is "promoting" your OSS project on SO, when it directly answers the question, any more self-serving than answering questions to boost your rep? If some of my answers crossed the line of directly answering the question (as the one above did), I will gladly remove them.

The bottom line is I want to be a good citizen both on SO and within the programming community at large. I will defend my motives for what I've done regarding Flurl, but I appreciate the feedback and will gladly take quick action to correct anything that may have crossed the line.

10
  • 18
    My two cents: I'm not sure you crossed any line with the quoted answer. However, these sorts of "software recommendation" answers are very hard for nonexperts to moderate, and, as such, questions like the one you responded to aren't great because they naturally attract these sorts of answers.
    – tmyklebu
    Aug 1, 2014 at 20:39
  • 5
    Are you sure you didn't remove it because of the -5 negative votes?
    – Léo Natan
    Aug 1, 2014 at 20:55
  • 10
    FWIW, I am not sure there is an explicit expectation that profiles carry disclosure of interests where a programmer might self-promote in their answer. Rather, there is an expectation that there is disclosure in the post where such a promotion is made, and you did that here. If you did get -5 votes, that sounds rather harsh, given the circumstances - that might be the Meta Effect! +1
    – halfer
    Aug 1, 2014 at 21:03
  • 7
    @Todd I applaud you for the course of action you took. It's good to see a community member accepting constructive criticism from the community as you have done.
    – jmstoker
    Aug 1, 2014 at 21:12
  • 6
    To make my reasoning for bringing this to meta clearer, I did so primarily because the shameless plug included incorrect information about the competing product in the form of a "con". Had this not been the basis for introducing their own product then I would personally tolerated this plug. I have no problems with Todds promotion of Flurl on relevant answers where a suitable example is included, such as his other answers. And taking time to respond to feedback is commendable too.
    – Scott
    Aug 1, 2014 at 21:15
  • 20
    @LeoNatan Of course the downvotes played into it, as did the comments, as did this meta, as did the private message from the moderator. It was a bad post, I was called out on it, and I owned up to it and un-did it. Your point? Aug 1, 2014 at 21:48
  • 6
    @Scott I understand and agree that the incorrect information, while an honest mistake, was the biggest problem. I do wish you'd given me a chance to respond to your comment and correct it before posting this meta, which effectively released the metaphorical hounds on me. :) Aug 1, 2014 at 21:59
  • 3
    @ToddMenier yeah I am sorry, I didn't know what action to take so I asked on meta simply for advice. I never expected people to react as harshly and down vote. I didn't want you to come off as a bad guy, nor do I want people thinking I am just out to get you. I came in here because I didn't know how to approach the situation. I do support your effort of promotion on answers where you gave examples and appreciate your effort in dealing with the huge amounts of feedback that have a arisen from my attempt simply to clarify the best approach in such cases.
    – Scott
    Aug 1, 2014 at 22:17
  • 6
    @Scott no worries, the important thing is the system worked here. One way or another bad answers (and questions) get weeded out. It's what makes this site great. Cheers! Aug 1, 2014 at 23:01
  • 1
    Without having read through the whole thing, this concept of "what libs gonna do the job" and a in-depth "pro / con" List of them would be a good fit over at softwarerecs. Of course you have to state your affiliation there as well (among other rules that you should read before posting). But in principle, give it a thought. softwarerecs.stackexchange.com Aug 3, 2014 at 14:03
-2

I'll just share my opinion on the subject; take it for what it's worth. I usually take answers mentioning a product by the author with extreme prejudice, because my experience with such answers has been that the author wishes to drive traffic and interest to his product, whatever it may be. Having this in mind, I am always skeptical whether someone that has a financial stake in their product, will do their best to answer a question fully; if they do, that would take away from the product they wish to drive traffic to. From my experience, they try to provide as little information as possible and link to their product as "see more here", or blatantly advertise their product, or both.

Now, there are obviously exceptions. I've seen answers that fully explain a topic, and as a "BTW", mention their product. I am fine with this. But the majority of answers I have seen, where the author has a stake in a product, the answers are not complete.

The worst offenders are those that advertise their product in a large majority of comments and/or answers they make. This can become very annoying, especially on the more specialized tags, where there are few experts that visit all the questions. I have someone in my mind for the tag, that does this with their book all the time, but I will not name names. Needless to say, it is very annoying, especially when that person drops two-three lines and points to their site/book as "read more here".

I think humility should be exercised on Stack Overflow, even if this is the main revenue stream of the author. Stack Overflow should not be a platform for direct advertisement. Rather, it should be a way to garner respect from the community, which then may choose to evaluate the author's products. This is what the user profile page is meant for, where you can describe yourself, link to information about you, what interests you, and indeed, your products. This should be the only way an author should advertise their product.

By product, I mean anything from a book, to a blog, to an open source project, to a website, to an actual product. It shouldn't really matter.

3
  • I presume you mean me. But in fact I do try to answer clearly and fully. I generally confine mention of my writings to a subsequent comment, and what I mention is a free set of Web pages — I'm giving away the whole content of the book for free. And the reason I point to it, when I do, is that I genuinely think reading it would be helpful to the questioner. For example, if the question is about drawing in a UIView, I'll try to answer the actual question (help provide code), but if the questioner needs it I will also point to my page that teaches how to draw in a UIView in general.
    – matt
    Aug 2, 2014 at 4:03
  • 3
    @matt: I was so hoping you'd comment with a link to your product, just for the lulz. Aug 2, 2014 at 21:34
  • 1
    I think your view about "self-promoting answers" is a bit limited. You seem to think it is solely because of financial or promotional interests. While this might be the case in some or even most of these (and they should be deleted), there are also others. In this case I think it is rather natural, given you wrote an OS program which can solve a particular problem an OP is having, to use it to answer the question? After all, it is also the one you are most familiar with. Of course there might be also other possible solutions, but for many questions there is no single right answer.
    – dirkk
    Aug 3, 2014 at 8:47

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