239

This has been discussed, although I am not sure there is a consensus. But since the introduction of the new close reason, it seems like the closing system is a bit unbalanced, because a generic reason was replaced with a more specific, less widely applicable one.

Scope

This question is about "How to do X, I have no idea how to start" questions, such as requirement dumps, most often with no code, or the "I have this code, how do I make it work on even numbers instead of odd" sort, which are not "too broad" (as in "How do I write a Facebook clone"). I believe this is what is commonly referred to as "send me teh codez". I'd call them zero-effort questions.

The "official" solution

The suggested way to treat low-effort questions is to downvote / ignore them: if someone wants to waste their time answering this, the question may help someone else in the future. An important argument is that closing requires more effort from the community, and we instead want those questions to be unanswered, downvoted, and as such automatically deleted later, to reduce their cost for the community.

Why it doesn't work

The fact of the matter is that such questions are often closed anyway. From the newest closed questions search, here are some recent examples, with close reasons:

And from the Close Votes review queue:

Even though we are told that a close vote is not a super-downvote, apparently the higher-rep part of the community (those with close privilege) do not want such questions answered on SO and want to make it clear to the askers, too. This is, in a way, a response to Shog9: a lot of people are ready to put in the necessary effort, they are doing it anyway, but they are forced to choose the close reason rather arbitrarily, which is a bad thing.

It's been also pointed out that if a question has two answers, however bad, it won't be automatically deleted.

My stance

We should differentiate between low-effort and zero-effort questions. The former are just bad programming questions, let them be. The latter are not programming questions at all, and as such, are off-topic. That means that the asker is not a programmer, at least in the context of the question at hand. To have a programming problem, one has to do some programming first, in the most general sense of the word. This includes research, trying something, etc.

In the past I used the "lacks sufficient information" reason, but it's gone now. The reason replacing it is more specific, and I don't think it applies here (although I like it). Applying any other reason is also often a stretch. I want a better close reason (and the "permission" from the community to close).

The cost can be reduced by increasing the weight of off-topic close votes for gold badge holders, as it has been done for duplicates.

Also, if someone doesn't want to spend time closing these questions, then please don't, and the Review queue can now filter by type, so no one is forced to look at zero-effort questions there.

Critique

This is exactly what I suggest. I'm not saying the person is not a programmer or not a welcomed user for asking this. But in the context of the question, they are not a programmer, but a help vampire. And it's the question that is not welcomed, not the person.

  • How can you tell if the OP has done research or not? Why call them names? You're not God!

I judge the post, not the person. If the question has no evidence of research, it appears off-topic to me.

  • Any answered question can help someone in the future. Just leave those people alone!

Yes. It is possible that someone who give themselves an exercise of searching Google may find that somebody has done someone else's homework on SO, and actually learn from it.

But, while we're discussing the future, there are disturbing trends calling for measures, with evidence that the problem is related to declining question quality. Is ignoring extremely bad questions and hoping they go away really the way to go?

Also, I doubt that such questions are attracting many views anyway (although I have no data).

Alternative solution

An alternative solution has been suggested in the Podast #59, and boils down to: "Let's just display crap less often on the front page". I have no problem with that, and it may help save the overall impression SO makes, although it is not specific to a certain kind of bad questions. I say, do your thing, at let us do our thing.

TL;DR

  • Why close: because the newcomers don't even realize something is bad about their question. We need to let them know what the problem is. We don't want to reward them by answering. Also, we kinda dislike rep-whoring answers. Zero-effort questions are the most frustrating kind of bad questions on the site, their numbers are growing (or it feels like it), and we need to target them specifically.

  • Bottomline: people are closing them anyway. We should either do something to stop it (why, though?), or give them a more suitable close reason, like we did with "debugging help", or adapt the "debugging help" to encompass this case.

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  • 11
    What's wrong with "too broad"? "There are too many possible answers"-since there is more than one way to skin a cat, I would say that's perfect for someone with no effort. disclaimer: I have never actually skinned a cat
    – codeMagic
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 18:14
  • 9
    @codeMagic I don't think beginner-level homework questions are ever too broad. This answer shows examples of "too broad" as "How do I create a facebook clone". This is a different type of questions, it seems. The fact that there are many possible answers is not the problem here, and full code doing what is asked for will not be too long either. Maybe we can tweak the "too broad" reason, or just agree to use it always, but I don't think it conveys the message well, same as "Unclear". Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 18:17
  • 9
    we need more people that actively close vote questions. Yet another close reason I have to choose between when I vtc is not going to help that I'm afraid.
    – rene
    Commented Jun 17, 2014 at 18:29
  • 7
    Zero effort questions are kind of annoying questions (answers can be found on the first page after googling). If I see this kind of questions I often can not decide how it should be marked (and can even miss it). Close reason for zero effort will teach people to do some research before asking.
    – Serge P
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 8:07
  • 2
    Where do you see little- or even zero-effort questions often get closed? In the .NET tags there's plenty of 30K+ rep users that happily answer the umpteenth "I need to parse this date and it's not working" question a day, instead of spending some effort to find a proper duplicate to link to.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 11:08
  • 2
    @CodeCaster Yeah, but it will increase the number of such questions being closed, reduce their lifetime, and indicate to the askers that they are not a good fit for the site, thus hopefully reducing their numbers over time. Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 11:58
  • 7
    I forsee a "not enough effort" close reason to really mean "for some reason I don't like your question, but I, the close voter, don't want to spend the effort to figure out what the real problem is with it." Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 15:10
  • 3
    I wouldn't even call it "not enough effort". I wouldn't even call it "zero effort". I would really love a close reason that was specifically, "this person isn't even asking a question, they're just stating a list of requirements and requesting that someone write code for them based on that list". Basically, a close reason specific to "gimme teh codez". (Or gimme teh homework answer, or whatever.)
    – neminem
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 16:21
  • 1
    @LevLevitsky we still do have one. "unclear what you're asking" is really just a euphemism for "not a real question" Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 16:37
  • 2
    @SamIam: A more effective euphemism, since it actually explains the problem (whereas "not a real question" did not).
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 16:43
  • 1
    @RobertHarvey I feel the opposite way. We are supposed to use "unclear" even if it is perfectly clear that the question is not a real question and can't be reworded. Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 16:46
  • 1
    @RobertHarvey More general, yes. More effective, I don't think so. An overly general close reason is not effective. Effective = informative, and thus specific (imho). Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 16:49
  • 3
    @RobertHarvey I just don't agree. "Not a real question" had issues, like yes there often was a question, it was just "somebody do all my work for me". But "unclear what you're asking" has the same problem, it's often super-clear what they're asking: "somebody do all my work for me". I really feel like we need a close reason that states explicitly "questions should state specifically what you're confused about. If you're not confused about anything, you just want us to do all your work for you, you should go somewhere else". :p
    – neminem
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 17:09
  • 1
    @neminem: "Too broad," if it is. If it isn't, why not just answer the question? "No effort" was never a valid close reason, and shouldn't be. See Shog9's explanation below, under the subheading "Trying to maximize effort actively subverts the purpose of this site."
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 17:09
  • 1
    @RobertHarvey Assignment dumps and similar. Commented Jun 19, 2014 at 8:09

4 Answers 4

142

You're conflating three different forms of "effort":

  1. Research effort: has the asker searched for a solution before asking?

  2. Definition effort: has the asker put enough thought into the problem to formulate a clear, specific question?

  3. Problem-solving effort: has the asker done anything to solve the problem himself before asking?

We have a close reason for #1: Duplicate.

We have multiple close reasons for #2: Unclear, Too Broad and a grab-bag of more specific reasons under Off Topic.

We do not have a close reason for #3 though, because:

  • Judging problem-solving effort is really subjective. Assuming sufficient research and definition effort, you're left to make a decision as to whether or not the asker has suffered enough yet; this quickly turns into a sick Milgram experiment.

  • Trying to maximize effort actively subverts the purpose of this site. We're trying to create a library of reusable information here, with the idea that if someone takes the time to define their problem and then search for it they won't have to ask a question at all! When it works, any answer can go on to benefit many people beyond the person who asked the question... But that also means that the majority of folks using a given answer are putting in zero problem-solving effort beyond what is needed for #1 and #2.

    You see the problem here? If we disallow all questions that don't require investment beyond research, we give up the ability for folks to research their problems using Stack Overflow, and end up with a library of questions so specific to their askers as to be worthless to anyone else.

Effort is useful when it produces results - so we moderate those results. If your question is clear enough, specific enough and unique enough to prompt the addition of useful information to our corpus, then it has value; otherwise, it does not. The close reasons strive to reflect this goal.

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    Are questions with no research effort really all duplicates? Sometimes they are answered in the docs, or something else. Besides, finding duplicates for extremely bad questions takes much effort with little gain for the community. Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 15:19
  • 6
    The beauty of this, @Lev, is that questions without a clear, searchable problem statement can be closed as "unclear what you're asking".
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 15:23
  • 37
    What about school assignment dumps? They are clear. Too localized, in old terms. Don't show understanding either. Just not close them anymore? Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 15:27
  • 4
    An "assignment dump" is not a question, @Lev. Either you have a clear question about an assignment, or....
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 15:30
  • 3
    What about "gimme teh regex"? I'm not sure we have a canonical for password regexes Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 15:32
  • 10
    Why does everyone hate regex questions? That's a separate discussion.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 15:34
  • 7
    I'm not gonna sidetrack this discussion since this has been discussed ad nauseam in the past, but... Homework/assignment questions are fine, but they need to be held to the same standards as any other question. If they're clear, specific and reasonably-scoped then don't begrudge someone asking them; if they're not, then close them.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 15:35
  • 8
    "Assignment dump is not a question" is very close to what I am saying in the question. But 1) what is the close reason for that? 2) Does this close reason convey the right message to the poster? Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 15:55
  • "Please clarify your specific problem or add additional details to highlight exactly what you need. As it's currently written, it’s hard to tell exactly what you're asking. See the How to Ask page for help clarifying this question." @Lev
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 16:05
  • 7
    @LevLevitsky: "This question appears to be off-topic because it is a copy/paste of a homework assignment. Questions asking for homework help must include a summary of the work you've done so far to solve the problem, and a description of the difficulty you are having solving it." -- Straight out of stackoverflow.com/help/on-topic, item 4.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 16:41
  • 5
    @RobertHarvey I like it. I will probably use it. But maybe if a custom reason is often applicable, it should be made a non-custom one. Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 16:52
  • 2
    @LevLevitsky: It is a real challenge to make close reasons that are both applicable to a wide variety of use cases, and specific enough to have clearly actionable advice. That's why custom close reasons are allowed.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 16:53
  • 3
    If people don't show their attempts to solve their requirement/issue, why is it subjective to say that they didn't make an effort? They are free to fix their questions by providing what they have tried. Until then OP's are just asking us to do their work. We could close because of "why isn't this code working", because it contains "doesn't include shortest code necessary to reproduce..". But that's not applicable in most cases because OP has not even mentioned a problem. He's just asking us to give him the solution to his requirement. I'm missing the "SO is not a code-writing service". Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 8:07
  • 7
    Does it matter, @Tim? If someone asks, "How do I do X?" and I know how to do X, do I care (beyond perhaps hope for some TDWTF-style amusement) what abortive attempts they've made that've failed to produce results? If I, too, want to know how to do X, does clogging the page with non-working examples benefit me? In both cases, isn't this just noise? I'd like to see research effort documented, mostly to save me wasting time on an answer that'd already been tried... But I've long ago had my fill of int main() { /* magic happens here */ return EXIT_FAILURE; } by way of "what have you tried".
    – Shog9
    Commented Sep 13, 2016 at 21:50
  • 1
    "Questions asking for homework help must include a summary of the work you've done so far to solve the problem, and a description of the difficulty you are having solving it." -- Straight out of stackoverflow.com/help/on-topic, item 4" 8 years later (it probably happened a while ago, really): this is no longer there. Commented Jul 1, 2022 at 11:45
27

My main concern with your question/suggestions is that you assume that questions that don't show any research efforts are fundamentally bad.

What do you think of these then: 1, 2, 3 and plenty more?

These could have been much longer had the OPs explained their failed attempts but to be honest, it would not have improved the questions which I find useful and straight to the point.

Based on your suggestion, they would be closed as "no research effort" if that were a close reason and I don't feel like it would be a good thing.

To conclude, I think that judgment is important in those situations and that the existing "too broad"/"opinion based"/"debugging question"/"Other" reasons are good enough for most situations where the lack of research is an issue.

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  • 1
    Number 3 seems off-topic and more appropriate for computerscience.SE (nowadays)...
    – Bakuriu
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 10:36
  • 1
    What about this question for example? This is now an off-topic even though it isn't ( simple syntax err ), but off-topic is chosen because the question is bad but there is no other close reason. Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 10:37
  • 1
    I agree with you that it can be quite difficult to determine quality of question. As for number one - I like it as it shows some effort, but what can you say about it stackoverflow.com/questions/24282684/…
    – Serge P
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 10:38
  • 1
    @Philipp: Ignore the "off-topic" misnomer and focus on the specific reason that is given in the close notice.
    – BoltClock Mod
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 10:38
  • @Philipp: I took part in flagging your example :-) It was difficult to choose the reason...
    – Serge P
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 10:43
  • 1
    @SergePashkevich This is a good example indeed, although I don't know if it's off topic: it is about programming and contains a fairly clear problem statement. It would probably have been "too localised, unlikely to help future visitors" a few years ago but that close reason is gone...
    – assylias
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 10:55
  • @assylias You are right. "too localised, unlikely to help future visitors" was good one and it could be suitable for my examples. So we have doubts while flagging questions because of lack of reasons... P.S. I've started to flag as "too broad" (for low effort questions) as it is the most suitable flag.
    – Serge P
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 11:07
  • @assylias I recollect another reason "minimal understanding". It was removed but it suits to examples above.
    – Serge P
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 11:44
  • 1
    The questions you link to in the answer are fine as part of a tag wiki list of "frequent questions". I think nowadays such questions are only acceptable if they are asked specifically for the purpose of providing a canonical answer. I also think only a tiny fraction of short no-effort questions are of this kind, and even if they are accidentally closed, there is a way to reverse it. Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 12:14
  • 1
    What makes you think that these questions are adding any value. You appear make the claim that they are doing no research, and that had they actually tried to search for the answer to their question they would have found it. If that's the case, then what possible value is there in duplicating that content here? People may end up finding their answer their, but if they didn't, they would have found it anyway in whatever source it displaced. So it's not actually adding value to anyone, which is done when adding information not already accessible.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 13:43
  • 1
    @Servy that is not what SO is about. A significant part of SO content can be found in blogs, official documentation, other websites etc. That doesn't make that content useless or off topic.
    – assylias
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 13:55
  • 2
    @assylias But it does make the content useless. Nobody is helped by the content that wouldn't otherwise have found it. There is no value added to the programming community by duplicating that content here. I didn't say it was offtopic, I just said it wasn't helpful. It's not acceptable here because the site has specifically said that questions should be well researched. That is a requirement of asking questions here specifically because we don't want to just duplicate already accessible content.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 14:03
  • 1
    @Servy I don't think what you describe is the site official policy.
    – assylias
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 14:12
  • @assylias It's been site policy for the entire lifetime of the site that questions are supposed to be well researched.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 14:16
  • 1
    @assylias Sounds like you need to read Shog's post here. You're conflating effort spent trying to solve the programming problem with effort spent searching for an existing solution to the problem on the web. The site has made it very clear, with no change in policy, over its entire lifetime, that research effort is expected of all questions to avoid duplicating content. Effort spent actually trying to solve the programming problem is...more complex, and also off topic here, so I won't try to explain anything about it.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 15:35
1

This is exactly what Too Broad is for.

There are either too many possible answers, or good answers would be too long for this format. Please add details to narrow the answer set or to isolate an issue that can be answered in a few paragraphs.

You're giving me a paragraph on what you want. However, the code for this would be a novel, or really long. That's another case for too broad.

A general rule of thumb: if it's a problem dump or a dump of requirements, it's probably too broad.

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    I do not agree with too broad. I think we do need close reason for zero effort questions. Example of question stackoverflow.com/questions/24279682/…
    – Serge P
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 7:58
  • @SergePashkevich: I actually don't think that's zero effort. It's pretty low effort, but not zero -- the OP specifically mentions trying Siemens communication blocks, which is a pretty good first step.
    – user541686
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 10:17
  • @SergePashkevich Why don't you agree with too broad? If you had to answer that question to a standard that allowed them - with the knowledge they've demonstrated in the question (basically none) - to solve their problem, you'd basically have to teach them how to code and write the entire thing for them. Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 10:24
  • 1
    @AnthonyGrist As we have no choice - I use "too broad" reason for such kind of questions... But I think "Too broad" is used too broad and has no meaning :-) I thought "Too board" - kind of a positive meaning (Question is good but too broad). AFAIR "minimal understanding" was used to close question with zero efforts as a reason. But the reason was removed.
    – Serge P
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 11:29
  • 2
    Funny how we used to close the same kind of questions as "Too localized" in the past. Doesn't it kinda indicate that both don't suit well? Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 11:51
  • 2
    People always pick a reason to close questions they hate but can't quite describe why, @Lev. Always. There's really no way around that. When they start picking a close reason for stuff they like but think has suddenly become off-topic, that's when it's time to be concerned.
    – Shog9
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 16:53
0

What's so bad about downvoting and ignoring? After all that should be quite satisfactorily on a personal level.

Negatively rated questions rarely get answers, and sometimes even the answers get downvoted too because the question is so bad it cannot be answered with a good answer anyway.

However in case someone wants to do the work and does the job for someone else and answers a low to zero effort question... do we really want to forbid this? This would be much more than just personally ignoring the question - it would mean forcing all others to ignore the question too which kind of takes the freedom away.

I know I wouldn't answer a question where I feel like only doing the job of the others but partially this is true for each question. You always do the job for others. It only has to be balanced in the long run.

So in summary: downvoting and ignoring seems to be about the right balance.


edit: Small addition. Surely someone can post a few question before a question ban takes place and not closing means more of these zero effort questions before a ban takes place, but other answers here said it already: such a close reason is highly subjective and will be misused for sure. So that's why I think you cannot do better and have to live with it. If you really don't like it, go there and downvote some answers.

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    "Negatively rated questions rarely get answers" you're going to need to support that point. I see tons of really bad questions that get lots of downvotes but still collect answers. I also find it very, very rare for answers to such questions to get downvotes. They virtually always get upvotes, often quite a few. As for do we want to forbid answers, yes, yes, we do, *because answering these bad questions encourages them to be asked. If people know that their bad questions won't be answered, they won't ask them.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 16:39
  • @Servy If I have time I will gather statistics. We should probably compare questions with 0-5 upvotes vs questions with 1 to 5 downvotes and the average number of answers after a fixed time. From my own experience however I can say that I surely don't want to answer such questions. And downvoting alone will already have the result in getting the questioner banned soon iirc, the encouragement is rather small. Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 16:48
  • Users need to have quite a few closed/deleted/downvoted questions to actually get banned, and just a small number of upvotes spread among them can easily prevent them from being banned, or at least allow them to ask quite a lot more questions before being banned. Each upvote pushes someone quite a lot further away from being banned than a downvote pushes them towards it, so the inevitable pity upvotes really inhibit getting rid of these users. The question ban helps, but it's simply not enough. As it is, it's also just too easy to subvert.
    – Servy
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 16:51
  • 6
    "Negatively rated questions rarely get answers" Really? stackoverflow.com/…
    – apaul
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 16:55
  • @Servy Well then there is still the argument in the other answers here that effort is difficult to judge and will be misused for sure. Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 16:55
  • @apaul Wow that is a bit surprising. Even the non-closed but downvoted questions have quite often answers. What does it mean? There seem to be a considerable amount of people here really wanting to answer zero-effort and otherwise downvoted questions. Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 17:09
  • 7
    @Trilarion I would guess it means that people like rep. To be fair this isn't the only reason, some people just want to be helpful, but I still can't escape the feeling that an awful lot of garbage gets asked and answered which probably isn't good for the site in long run.
    – apaul
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 17:17
  • @apaul We could maybe nullify rep from answers to downvoted questions. Having a "not enough effort" close reason is so subjective it won't work. I guess SO has to live with it. Better filters might also help. What speaks against not looking at downvoted questions? Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 17:28
  • meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/260087/…
    – apaul
    Commented Jun 18, 2014 at 17:38
  • @apaul34208 I assume that search engines will distinguish between good and bad questions as well. I mean, Google and rivals would be incredibly stupid to ignore the vote rate. As nobody will search through all the Q/A manually it's up to search engines to find them. This is why it is vitally important for questions if not answers to contain the right keywords and - of course - tags. Besides that, in the long run, questions with negative vote rates could be deleted altogether (so sing along: "questions with negative vote rates could be deleted"). Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 13:24
  • @MaartenBodewes Why should they be deleted. If your assumption is right and search engines ignore them no harm is really done. On the other hand maybe they can still be improved and and up in something positive with positive score. At least in the low valued negative range I have seen useful stuff. For all others, yeah, delete them or just ignore them - it's all the same. Commented Sep 15, 2015 at 13:50
  • 3
    Also worth mentioning, we only has a finite number of down votes and close votes to cast. It is not an effective solution. I run out every day I am active voting. Anyone working the close vote or low quality queues could run out of votes in 15 minutes or less.
    – jww
    Commented Oct 12, 2018 at 4:54

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