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This reference question has been frustrating me for a while: Reference - What does this symbol mean in PHP?

I'm not opposed, in general, to creating reference Q&As that are just link collections, especially about symbols. The What does this regex mean reference question is, in my opinion, the single most useful regex reference on the entire internet, and I go there whenever I don't understand some regex syntax. The trouble with PHP's symbol question - and some others like it - is that it's not just a link collection. Instead, it's also an answer collection, with a whole bunch of answers explaining the meaning of some arbitrarily chosen symbol. Worse, questions about the meaning of particular symbols get closed as duplicates of this generic reference question, because there's some answer there - several dozen full screens of text down the page - that provides an answer.

Now, some of the answers there are good, as far as their content goes! It would be a pity for the content to be lost forever. But the format is awful. Providing explanations of the syntax and meaning of every symbol in the PHP language in answers to one 'question' and then closing all actual, specific questions about symbols as duplicates of it seems like a really dumb goal, for a few reasons:

  • We lose the ability of answers to compete with each other
  • Voting on answers becomes somewhat meaningless as a result
  • Googlers, rather than clicking through to a question that asks exactly what they want to know and reading the answer, instead have to do that, then click through to a 'duplicate' that doesn't even obviously contain an answer to their question and sift through a massive list of links to find what they're interested in.

It seems to me that nobody benefits from having the answers to multiple symbol-specific questions located in a single place instead of just collecting links to a broad array of narrowly-specified questions, as the regex community has done.

But now that we've got that situation, what do we do? How do we salvage the cumbersome mess that we've got into a useful reference?

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    I agree that it is a bit of a mess, but if the question now links to separated symbol-specific Q&A's or just to symbol-specific answers below the question doesn't make a real difference in my opinion. I think that in the canonical Q&A there is a lot of redundant information/answers and some answers could be improved.
    – Rizier123
    Commented Nov 17, 2016 at 23:16
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    It is possible - albeit tedious - to divide up a question like this into multiple questions, leaving on the original a directory of links. There are two ways to do this: 1. Manually copy the answers. 2. Get an employee to detach them from a single monolithic question and attach them to a new question. Those probably sound hard... But that's actually the easy bit. The hard part is getting folks to agree on what needs to be broken up and where it should be moved. Last time some PHP folks tried breaking up one of these, someone got pissy and the whole thing died. Good luck...
    – Shog9
    Commented Nov 17, 2016 at 23:25
  • Meh, collections of loosely-related-but-not-really questions is one of the reasons the too broad close reason exist... it's thousand of times more beneficial having a laser focused plethora of questions that users can easily identify when they use a search engine as the question that will have their answer, and more importantly, that they aren't hit with a wall of text that scares them off.
    – Braiam
    Commented Nov 18, 2016 at 0:26
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    Hopefully that knowledge can be shared to Documentation, then you could just have a single answer that points there :). Commented Nov 18, 2016 at 14:32
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    @MikeMcCaughan Yeah, but that involves using SO documentation... Commented Nov 18, 2016 at 15:00
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    @JayIsTooCommon Yeah, well, you're using PHP, so I figured you all were gluttons for punishment ;). Commented Nov 18, 2016 at 15:02
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    @MikeMcCaughan even for gluttons, some things are just too hard hard to swallow
    – Gordon
    Commented Nov 21, 2016 at 8:23
  • mandatory reference : lesjoiesducode.fr/post/46505212198/… (even if you're not french the GIF and the error is enough :))
    – Walfrat
    Commented Nov 21, 2016 at 16:27

3 Answers 3

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This is precisely why I abhor these kind of mega questions... it has everything and absolutely nothing at the same time. People can't find anything there... which was the very purpose of the question "to make the information easier to find". Stack Overflow Q&A model has been based on very specific and well scoped questions which has a workable answer near the top. This model fails big time here.

I prefer the reference being broken down into several (I calculate ~80) separated questions and answer, and then delete this. I find that's the only future proof solution which brings the most benefits for everyone. This will be painful and a massive PITA, but I prefer this than to having even one more duplicate question that we have to close vote.

This question should be a example of why mega questions don't work: they make information that was supposed to be easier to find, incredibly more difficult. Leave the job to consolidating information a la carte to search engines.

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    I think you are greatly exaggerating the problem. I don't see why people "cannot find anything in there". You open the page, find the operator you are after in the link list in the question body and then go their respective Q&A. That's easy to do. The answers are a different story but they don't hinder finding the operators in the question body. And the question stats clearly prove the utility of the reference.
    – Gordon
    Commented Nov 21, 2016 at 15:21
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FWIW, I've never intended the Operator reference to contain actual answers. This is also explicitly stated in the question body, e.g.

The main idea is to have links to existing questions on Stack Overflow, so it's easier for us to reference them.

The keywords here are obviously links and reference. But people are people, so after a while answers starting popping up. I very much agree that having both - the link collection and answers - is messy. I wouldn't mind if these answers would go into separate questions instead, but they also don't bother me that much that I would drive the effort. Also, I think the reference is still very much usable even with the answers being there.

Then again, I am wondering whether we still need the operator reference at all. The Stack Overflow search supports searching for symbols for several years now. This shortcoming in the search was the original pain point I was aiming to solve (and I dare say successfully) but it is no longer necessary. So maybe we could put a historical lock onto it.


On a side note: the link list part of the operator reference has been discussed often enough. There must be over a hundred deleted comments on the post and it was closed and reopened several times. I've explained my reasoning at length in PHP Errors Reference question. I've validated whether it's okay with Shog9 and Tim more than once. Please let's not go there again. The reference prevailed (and inspired copies, including the regex one mentioned by the OP) because it added value. And that is more important than it not meeting our Q&A format.

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    Why not fix the mess instead of sweeping it under the rug?
    – Braiam
    Commented Nov 21, 2016 at 7:21
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    @Braiam because I feel it's not worth the effort. I did not put these answers there. I don't feel responsible for them. Even if I did, I wouldn't know where to put them or how to do it without losing attribution. You can copy and paste the answer, but then you'd be the author. So you'd also need Shog to change the attribution (normal mods cannot do this because it needs db access). If you think it is worth the effort, go ahead and think of something and make it work.
    – Gordon
    Commented Nov 21, 2016 at 7:31
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    FWIW, I can relocate the answers to other questions if we can figure out "where"; it's not super-clean, but nothing will be (including HL). Then move the list into an answer, lock the question as Wiki Answer, and let it be - whether for active maintenance or simply for posterity.
    – Shog9
    Commented Dec 9, 2016 at 17:47
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This mess should really be moved to Documentation.

In it's current form, it's textbook "too broad", or even a "Question asking us to recommend or find a book, tutorial or other off-site resource".

Sure, it's old and has a massive view count, but I'd prefer those views to be redirected to the proper page in the proper format, than maintaining that.

So: Link to documentation, and historical-lock the list.

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    Documentation is in beta, unstructured, generally doesn't show up on Google, and its PHP operators page has the same problems that the reference question has (it's an unstructured, format-abusing mass of stuff) plus more (an example limit that prohibits documenting more operators; lack of ownership meaning any example can be trashed at any time without its author noticing). Hiding away reference questions in a dark hole where they'll never be found and their content will be gradually perverted is not a solution.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Nov 21, 2016 at 14:43
  • @MarkAmery: I don't intend to hide it, but link to it from the current "references" question.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Nov 21, 2016 at 14:44
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    Maybe others will disagree with me, but until Documentation shows that it can offer any advantages whatsoever over reference questions and self-answers on the main site, I don't see myself supporting any migrations to it.
    – Mark Amery
    Commented Nov 21, 2016 at 14:44
  • Also, I think that Documentation, with some proper moderation, can be an excellent format. It's massively underrated now. But it's up to the php community to put some effort into it.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Nov 21, 2016 at 14:48
  • @Cerbrus to be fair - it's a little difficult to commit to expending time on something when it's still a little unclear and in a state of flux...
    – Jon Clements Mod
    Commented Nov 21, 2016 at 14:51
  • For an example of how this could work, if only the remarks section could be moved to the top. I had a pinned example with those links in there, but apparently, that was removed, making the topic more difficult to look through...
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Nov 21, 2016 at 14:51
  • ^ This has now been fixed in an edit. I think the way that topic is formatted is a perfect match for this php topic.
    – Cerbrus
    Commented Nov 21, 2016 at 15:00
  • @Cerbrus I'd prefer if we could focus on the OP's problem with the reference, e.g. the "it's also an answer collection" part instead of questioning the reference as a whole when it has proven it's value over all these years - despite technically not meeting the Q&A format. It's not like this hasn't been discussed before, for instance at meta.stackexchange.com/questions/149743/…
    – Gordon
    Commented Nov 21, 2016 at 15:35

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