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This is in reference to a chat discussion prompted by this meta post.


The backstory here is simple: a high-rep user on Stack Overflow recently decided to start offering bounties on questions with the express intent of increasing specific authors' reputations so that they could use it to moderate more effectively.

I was one of the recipients of his largesse, as were several others. Today, flags were raised and in response the moderators refunded some of the bounties and spoke darkly of "fraud", "trading bounties" and "artificial inflation of reputation".

My primary question, as stated in the title, is:

What exactly is an "artificial inflation of reputation", and how is a user's posted bounty deemed as such?

Related (but optional) questions include:

  • What is considered "trading bounties", how is that even possible?

  • Can there really be any harm in aiding like-minded individuals in their quest to better moderate the site?

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    How on Earth can a 10K user not know this?? Or is it just convenient to pretend to not know this? Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 23:28
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    I've fleshed out the details a bit, since you appear to have been too rushed to include them. Please do correct any inaccuracies.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 23:29
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    @Hans I just want to know what definition of the criteria is. How that is determined. For example, is it only determined to be artificial if the the bounty poster says that it is artificial? Or is it artificial if a mod determines that the answer is not worth the bounty?
    – user4639281
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 23:30
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    Would any of the moderators who commented here please post their definition of the criteria used so that it can be discussed and voted on by the community? I posted the question I was asked to post, no one is providing the answers I was told I would receive.
    – user4639281
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 23:37
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    I think we all need a little bit of a break after that chat, Tiny. Fortunately, meta works fine in not-real-time, and allows folks who aren't moderators to chime in too.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 23:40
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    there was unfounded accusations of malice, trading and fraud that was unfounded, who is going to address not slandering people and accusing them of things that did not happen?
    – user177800
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 23:40
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    I also want a clear definition of what trading bounties is, nothing of the kind happened, unless you considering a one way gift with nothing in exchange trading.
    – user177800
    Commented Mar 7, 2016 at 23:41
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    This is tough situation. On one hand, I can think of a few people deserving of more moderation privileges. On the other hand, I can easily see the idea of "gifting" reputation getting out of hand. Skipping reputation limit for various kinds of votes can have real impact on which questions get answered. So I'd err on the conservative side and draw rather strict lines.
    – ryanyuyu
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 0:38
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    @TinyGiant - Users were specifically targeted to be recipients of reputation through the bounty system with disregard for the current outlook which is to not simply vote based on a user. And especially not to assign reputation to a user. That is the sole reason of this post, as is evidenced in the chat transcript where you berate Shog9. Crying foul while attempting to bypass convention is downright dirty.
    – Travis J
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 1:29
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    @TravisJ That has nothing to do with the question that I asked, and want answered here. If you want to discuss that, I suggest asking your own question as I was told to do. If you don't want to answer the question asked and you want to discuss something else entirely go discuss it somewhere else otherwise, please discuss the topic at hand which is What exactly is “artificial inflation of reputation”, and where is the line?
    – user4639281
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 1:39
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    I have no stake and very little history. I've read the questions and the chat transcript. My take: I'm pretty sure you've actually gotten quite a few pretty solid answers, but you still keep saying that nobody is answering your question. Your comments indicate that you just want to shoot down answers to your question, not honestly get answers. That seems disingenuous.
    – Ajean
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 2:01
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    Wee bit dodgy to leave the edits alone for two hours and then object to them after folks have provided answers.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 2:11
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    @vove: We could just throw up our hands and be yet another miserable Internet Forum, I suppose.
    – Robert Harvey Mod
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 23:19
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    There are voting fraud detection systems in place. So what about bounty fraud detection systems? Commented Mar 9, 2016 at 13:56

5 Answers 5

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First off, I gotta say that I really detest bounties. I hate that we have a bounty system, and generally-speaking I hate that people use it. All bounties are artificial rep inflation!

But I also recognize that bounties are sort of a necessary evil, like gambling or usury: if folks are gonna do it anyway, we're better off creating a low-resistance path that we can regulate than driving a black market for it.

...Which brings us to the question of what those regulations should be.

There are two fundamental sets of rules for bounties:

  1. The rules built into the system itself.
  2. The rules against fraud, which are moderator-enforced (with some tooling to assist them).

So what is fraud? Fraud is deception for personal gain.

  • Using fake accounts to work around the built-in rules is fraud.
  • Transferring reputation to/from a sockpuppet is fraud (both because it violates those built-in rules and because it's usually done to work around the rules that prevent voting for yourself).
  • Using bounties as a means to pay / reward someone for something apart from the quality of their work can be fraud if you don't let on that that's what you're doing.

That last one's where things get dicey. You can easily argue that, for example, using bounties to transfer rep in exchange for real-world currency is fraud because doing so requires lying about your intentions: to offer a bounty you must select a pre-defined reason, and there's no "for CASH!" option. But of course, to consider this fraud we must somehow determine that your intentions are not what you purport them to be!

This is where moderators come into play. When someone catches wind of a scam, they flag the relevant question and a moderator looks into it - if there's enough evidence for them to be reasonably confident that the bounty is fraudulent, they'll revoke it (and perhaps take further action as the situation warrants). In the past, this has been used in cases where folks have tried to sell rep, privileges, accounts, protection, etc.

So that answers most of your questions. The big ones that remain are:

On "trading" bounties

Due to the way the reputation system works, in the past it has been possible to create "untouchable" rep via careful exchanges of bounties. This is reputation that cannot easily be tracked back to any specific action on the site - it's credited to the account, but can't be revoked by deleting relevant posts.

We've since made doing this a lot more work, with the end-goal of making it extremely obvious when someone's engaging in this sort of game long before they're able to sequester any significant amount of reputation. But it remains something to watch for whenever there's unusual bounty activity, especially that involving multiple users and numerous bounties among them over a long period of time.

Your specific situation

So, this is kind of a weird one.

  • No one broke or subverted any of the built-in rules.
  • There is no bounty trading that I'm aware of; if your description of the situation is correct, bounties moved in only one direction. That just leaves...

...Fraud. Technically, this is fraud if two things are true:

  1. The sole purpose was transferring reputation (the person offering the bounties had no particular appreciation of the answers to which they were awarded, nor any desire to see the questions attract better answers).
  2. There was some expectation of quid pro quo: a favor from the answerers in exchange for the bounty.

Normally, this wouldn't even come up unless something looked incredibly dicey - usually that means bounties being awarded to answers that are straight-up plagiarism or consist of links to random search results. In this case, we had the combination of a bounty on a somewhat lackluster question (uncharacteristic for the person offering it) and a conversation uncovered in chat that together aroused suspicion that rep-transfer was the sole goal here.

But... was there quid pro quo? Was some favor expected? I've seen talk in other rooms on chat.so that whisper darkly of attempts to get more delete-voters active in the SOCVR, but haven't seen any real evidence that this was the intent. In any case, mindless group-voting is an issue all by itself, and one I would hope any chatroom wanting to remain active long-term would avoid.

The moderators' actions to date strike me as reasonably prudent:

  • Revoking active bounties while investigating the situation ensures that no reputation is lost in the event that posts must be deleted or users suspended, while allowing them to be re-offered should there turn out to be no trouble.
  • Being reluctant to accuse specific individuals in public without concrete evidence is... just good manners.

I trust that the elected moderators on Stack Overflow will investigate this thoroughly, and if no untoward intent is found then nothing will come of it; if there is reason to suspect fraud then those involved will be contacted about it and have the opportunity to provide an alternate explanation.

In closing: be honest

The best way to avoid fraud - or accusations of such - is to just be up-front about your intentions. This is rule #1, after all. Folks may not agree with your intent, or like it, and if enough of them dislike it vehemently enough you may end up inspiring more rules in the future... But at least they can't really argue you're being misleading if you state up-front what you're doing. Bounties even provide a handy free-form text field for this exact purpose - so use it! As far as I can tell, the person who inspired this discussion made effective use of this feature right up until today.

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    Comments archived. Reminder: if what you have to say can't fit in a comment, that's a pretty good signal what you're writing isn't really a comment.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 10, 2016 at 2:07
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    Why wasn't something of what you say here added to the mix on this, meta.stackoverflow.com/q/314276/1927206? Commented Mar 11, 2016 at 0:00
  • I'm still mulling that idea over, @Bill. There's some prior art here (elsewhere on the Internet and within SE) that hints this could be a really useful idea, but although it might be feasible to build it on the same system I don't think we'd want them to look very much like existing bounties.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 11, 2016 at 0:41
  • OK, thanks. My first thought to your response was "you don't like bounties, but it's OK if you just use a different name", but I waited for the second one to come along. Makes sense to remove/reduce the overloading of "bounty", although code would be needed, and how many would do it (I would, since 20k is beyond expectation, so I would be looking to spend, slowly). Commented Mar 11, 2016 at 1:03
  • Trading bounties is like money laundering. Commented Jun 24, 2016 at 15:52
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I am going to go out on a limb and answer this with only scanning the chat transcript as I don't think the entire background is completely necessary to address the core issue here.

Reputation on Stack Overflow (and all Stack Exchange sites) have always been defined as "the level of trust the community has in you". Similarly, privileges have been traditionally awarded based on reputation.

So to put this is some math expressions,

  • Reputation = Trust
  • Reputation = Privileges

Therefore

  • Privileges = Trust

The simple fact is that your Privileges are tied to your reputation and your reputation is considered the level of trust the community has in you, you can extrapolate that your privileges can be equated to the level of trust the community has in you.

If someone is giving you reputation for the sole purpose of providing you additional privileges on the site, they are attempting to circumvent the "trust" the "community" has granted you. While their attempt to give other users those privileges may have been noble (we do need as much strong community moderation as possible), they are simply violating the trust the community has given them by trying to pass along privileges to users who have not earned them yet.

While I see this as different from someone trying to inflate the reputation of a colleague at work so they can comment on posts because of the intent, to an outsider, it can certainly seem like a double standard. Someone was intentionally trying to inflate the reputation of a specific individual (or individuals) so they could gain more privileges. If you did that to get someone to 50 rep, you might get suspended. So why should someone with 10K rep trying to inflate the rep of others not be treated different?


So to tie this back to your original question of "What exactly is 'artificial inflation of reputation', and where is the line?"

The simple answer is the line should not be a predefined (and disclosed) set of criteria. As much as we want a solid black line so we know if we crossed it or not, the criteria should not be disclosed to prevent gaming the system in the same way as the question ban and serial voting criteria are not disclosed. If someone is voting or awarding/offering bounties simply based on the author of the post and not the content, then it is starting to drift very closely to the definition of voting fraud.

Intent and reputation should not shield someone from the rules of the site.

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    So are you saying that it is only "artificial inflation of reputation" if the user states that they are doing it only to inflate the reputation of the user, without caring about the post receiving the bounty?
    – user4639281
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 1:05
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    @TinyGiant not really. I'm saying the line, if one exists, shouldn't be disclosed. What that line is and how it is determined should be up to the elected moderators and the SE team to decide. Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 1:08
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    Well, 1. that is contrary to the official answer from the Community Manager of Stack Overflow, and 2. that is just setting everyone up for failure. You're basically saying that moderators can deem any bounty to be "artificial inflation of reputation", and revoke it for whatever reason they like, without any need to explain why they deemed it so.
    – user4639281
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 1:15
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    Why do you trust a single user's judgement in the handing out of the bounty, but not a single moderator's judgement in the revocation, @TinyGiant? (Or, really, the moderator team's judgement since AFAICT they seldom act in unusual circumstances without talking to each other.)
    – jscs
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 1:18
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    I didn't say I trust or distrust either, @JoshCaswell. I just want the line, and criteria to be defined.
    – user4639281
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 1:19
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    All right, @TinyGiant, but you're strongly implying that you think crossing the line in one direction is okay and the other isn't.
    – jscs
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 1:27
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    There is also the concept of trusted lieutenants, if you trust me and I trust someone else, then they should be trusted because you trust my judgement, if that is not the case, then there really is no trust, it is just BS.
    – user177800
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 2:10
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    @Jarrod trust isn't transitive. You earned your trust by receiving upvotes from many different members who liked your posts. That means that you can't single-handedly assign the equivalent of 50 (!) upvotes to a single user for the sole purpose of "trusting" them, that bypasses the entire community.
    – CodeCaster
    Commented Mar 9, 2016 at 11:14
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    @TinyGiant I honestly don't see the argument here?? If rep is awarded through a bounty for the sole purpose of inflating a specific users rep rather then awarding for good/correct content then there is no issue, rep gain revoked!
    – user692942
    Commented Mar 9, 2016 at 16:06
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    @Lankymart The point is, how do you prove that the "sole" purpose of the bounty is to "inflate" a users rep? If I notice that someone I like is nearing a privilege, and I go through their answers reading up on what they've written, find a really good answer, and place a bounty on it, is that artificial inflation of reputation? If so, how can that be proven?
    – user4639281
    Commented Mar 9, 2016 at 16:11
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    @TinyGiant In that example it likely won't get picked up on and I imagine it probably happens all the time but that doesn't make it any less right. Can it be proven?, probably not...what's your point? It seems to me you are just hell bent on finding every little hole in the system so you can exploit it. Especially the way you keep banging the "how can you prove it?" drum. Here's a question for you, why should we have to?
    – user692942
    Commented Mar 9, 2016 at 16:16
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    No, I'm asking for the criteria used by moderators to determine this. Everyone is neglecting the fact that the Community Manager of Stack Overflow actually answered the question comprehensibly. Everyone is saying that it is subjective, and no line can be drawn, yet Shog has drawn objective lines. I'm happy with Shog's answer, yet everyone still wants to be all philosophical and sibjective. @Lankymart
    – user4639281
    Commented Mar 9, 2016 at 16:19
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    @TinyGiant Agreed Shog's answer is comprehensive I just don't think it was necessary. There is no legitimate reason to gift rep to a user for the sole purpose of inflating their rep, it answers itself - case closed.
    – user692942
    Commented Mar 9, 2016 at 16:41
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    Please note that I was pretty careful to draw only lines that clearly exist, @Tiny. There are other lines, but they're not nearly as distinct. Stack Overflow is governed primarily by the actions and influence of the people on it; in a very real sense, there is no higher authority than what folks are willing to tolerate.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 10, 2016 at 2:16
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    @Shog as said in my last comment here, and countless times since this whole debacle started, the lines you set out in your answer are the only lines I was asking about. Of course there are various other lines that are not nearly as distinct, but that wasn't what I was asking about, no matter how much everyone here wants to make it about that.
    – user4639281
    Commented Mar 10, 2016 at 2:28
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At the risk of alienating myself from the room.

The question the meta post Is there a better way to deal with low-quality questions that have a bounty attached? is referring to has the following history -> Read from here to here:

The bounties were place on three questions by a high rep user to give a lower rep user the reputation by rewarding existing answers. This was to assist the lower rep user attain a rep level that would give that user moderation privleges so they could participate more actively in the SOCVR. < sarcasm tag > When I discovered this was done; I asked for more rep and in fact am going to post a rep raiser (much like a fund raiser) on meta requesting people place bounties to reward my existing answers as I could do with 10k mod privileges to assist in my moderation tasks on the site and I can't be bothered waiting to earn that rep fairly by answering questions < close sarcasm tag > had I been in the room at the time I would've spoken up

This is unacceptable behaviour and I am embarrassed it came from the SOCVR. This room needs to be above reproach as it's sole purpose is to exist to coordinate moderation tasks. We are not to be a voting ring or an increase a user's rep ring. People of any rep can participate with moderation tasks and we all need to earn our rep the honest and hard way, by writing good posts. Some tags do receive more attention and votes then others, just as some programming skills have a greater share of the job market, it's life.

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As someone who has dredged the depths of despair that are the moderation queues, I understand the desire to have users who wish to moderate, being able to do so more effectively. But I have an issue with artificially awarding reputation (through whatever means) to achieve this goal, because it's so, so easy to abuse. What if a malicious user gained access to a 100k+ rep user's account, made 50 sockpuppets, bumped them all to 2k rep via bounties, and went around vandalising questions and answers? I'd assume SO staff and diamond mods have tools to detect and reverse this, but it still takes time and effort. I'm sure someone with a big enough axe to grind could figure out many far more devious ways to abuse the bounty system for bad ends.

Regarding the SOCVR, there have always been faint rumblings of discontent about its existence and the "hivemind" that exists there, and while most of them are sour grapes, I'm sure there's been at least one instance where a question got closed when it shouldn't have. News flash, humans are opinionated and fallible.

But - and this is a big but* - the existence of the SOCVR, and the intention to award bounties for the purpose of better moderating, points to a far deeper problem with Stack Overflow and its moderation. Address that problem, and the issue with bounties and close vote brigading go away. (Yes, I know I've beaten this drum to death, but I'm going to continue beating it until something changes.)

In summary, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Using bounties to try to fix moderation problems is a good intention, but it has numerous, potentially negative consequences - not least including bad feelings between members of the community. I feel that there is perhaps a case to be made for limiting bounties to only be handed out by question askers, and not slapped on arbitrary questions by arbitrary users.

To answer the question: the line is crossed when features like bounties are misused, even for seemingly noble goals.

* which I like and cannot lie about

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    You mention "a far deeper problem" on the site but you haven't mentioned what that problem is.
    – TylerH
    Commented Mar 9, 2016 at 15:24
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    "I feel that there is perhaps a case to be made for limiting bounties to only be handed out by question askers, and not slapped on arbitrary questions by arbitrary users." Why? What if someone else asked a question I want the answer to? Am I supposed to ask a new question instead? Commented Mar 9, 2016 at 15:44
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Is a scandal still a scandal if no one actually did anything wrong?

There is no group or room conspiracy, I did what I did unilaterally. @Qix posted a not nice complaint accusing me of lowering the quality of the site. I responded and he complained about it on Meta. Madness ensued by all the people that have had questions closed in their opinion unfairly by someone that frequents SOCVR, so this was their chance to sling mud in the most passive aggressive manner possible.

I am not even a member of that room, I just hang out there to unwind late at night, and only sometimes. I do not take part in their events, I post atrocious things there publicly just like anyone can. They may or may not be acted upon. Honestly I am more effective closing duplicates than casting a single vote so I rarely spend close votes on things posted there.

The hypocrisy is the person that started all this with unfounded accusations has done less for the quality the site in the last five years than I do in a week, probably a day.

Masking their meta retaliation of me telling asking them who made them bounty police, was a self-serving passive aggressive action that has now incriminated a bunch of people that have done nothing wrong.

The Mods that claim they did, never asked me, they reversed my bounties that I was awarding to perfectly valid answers. To claim they did not like the idea of a bounty and made all this fantasy about bounty trade ring in their head!

This was a single person ( me ) taking an unilateral action, which was publicly and transparently done, I marked the bounty Reward Existing Answer and I even posted what I had done in a chat room, one that had nothing to do with this other than the person I was rewarding was in it.

Any other claims are just flat out lies and fabrications.

As a note the same chat transcripts that supposedly prove this conspiracy and fraud also state by the mods ( indirectly ) that they would not have taken any action if I had not been honest and transparent in my intentions. Good thing to know in the future!

So this entire thing is just someone stirring the pot for their own personal unknown reasons, for them to keep claiming that something nefarious or malicious was conspiratorially done, when nothing of the sort was done and nothing of the sort was proven by moderators actions or any other official moderator behavior.

I am sure if there was some kind of proof, I and everyone else wrongly accused would be perm banned right now. And I am not, because I am posting this. I might get suspended for posting it, but that is the way the cookie crumbles.

I am not going to let one small person bully and accuse a bunch of innocent people for something I did and they took offence to.

Proof is in the pudding:

I ask that any sanctions that you need to deal out for whatever reason be meted out against me and me alone.

Give they guys/girls back their room @Shog9 no one can even be remotely accused of doing anything wrong other than me and I openly admit, I was trying to help a couple of people out and get across the line a few weeks earlier than they probably would have. Serious crime that completely destroys the site and community, I know.

One persons unfounded accusations being taken for fact is the group think that you need to be afraid of. And those lies and fabrications being spread unchallenged as the truth, is harming the site and the reputation of the site as open and transparent.

I guarantee that has done more damage than a bunch of <10K people that do not even have dupe hammer privileges, trying organize and promote everyone that is capable to clean up duplicates and the like.

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    I read it. They had their room back earlier after we finished talking and got a reasonable meta discussion going (which... seems to have now gone off the rails, but that happens).
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 2:52
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    Did this answer somehow get moved from meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/318482/… or am I losing my mind @Shog9? This question has been locked longer than the answer has existed.
    – jscs
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 3:04
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    Yes, I moved it @Josh. It's only like once every few years that tool is even applicable, so I relish the opportunity when it arises.
    – Shog9
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 3:06
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    Okay, thanks, @Shog9. Must be fun.
    – jscs
    Commented Mar 8, 2016 at 3:06
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    I agree, there is no bounty trading ring or voting ring, other than close and open vote reviews. There was discussion before you were pinged about offering the user a bounty and who could place it. Do I think these people are bad or in conspiracy? No. I think they're desperate to make headway into the close review queue. It's not the place of us (I mean people in the room collectively) to inflate someone's rep so they can have privileges, that's not the true purpose of the bounty system. I spoke out as a member of the room, as we need to be above reproach, as there are accusations cast...
    – user3956566
    Commented Mar 9, 2016 at 13:51
  • against the room at times, which I think are at times unfair and due to the collective moderation effort, we need to be squeaky clean because of this. It is far better to admit, hey yes we made a mistake and it won't happen again and move forward, than to deny it. Denial just feeds any community distrust there may be towards the room. Personally I think the room has higher than average number of people with good intentions. Our aim, in the room needs to be to demonstrate that to the larger community and put any unfounded accusations to rest. No one is bad in the room.
    – user3956566
    Commented Mar 9, 2016 at 13:54
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    One mistake does not a conspiracy make.
    – user3956566
    Commented Mar 9, 2016 at 13:55
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    Related: Enhance moderation ability by encouraging excellent content‌​ Commented Jun 14, 2016 at 15:12

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