-9

I had a question related to licensing closed/deleted by Community, but it has practical applicability to programming. The question cited a specific Microsoft library with specific applicability to a real programming problem - How to best represent OMG UML interfaces in a .NET project. It had a net vote of 0, with 3 up-votes and 3-down votes.

I looked at the answer to Questions about licensing , which says

Software licensing is not on topic, as it is not a practical programming problem.

Now, I get that in a general sense, this is a legal issue and does not apply directly to the practice of software development. While one could argue that shipping real commercial software is a necessary aspect of the practice of programming, this is not the stance I'm taking.

I have a real practical programming problem that is the basis for the question. How do I best represent OMG's UML interfaces in .NET ? This question, if answered, could have practical applicability to anyone attempting to leverage UML as a metaprogramming resource in a .NET application. Depending on the answer to the question, a programmer would be able to make a decision to: (A) use Microsoft's library; or, (B) write a separate library to provide equivalent functionality and metadata. It should be obvious that this decision is a "practical programming problem" because almost every practicing programmers has to make such a decision.

Clearly, if this question were in fact to be considered on-topic for SO, then we would need a clear distinction between this type of question and a question such as "Can I use an MIT license in my commercial product?".

To me, it's plain that the litmus test would be quantification. Questions for which the answer would be a universally quantified statement should be considered off-topic. For example, "All MIT licensed libraries can be used in commercial products." Conversely, questions for which the answer would be an existentially quantified statement should be considered on-topic. For example, "ServiceStack 4.0's redis caching mechanism can be used in a commercial product if either a commercial license is purchased or the usage does not exceed the imposed rate-limits of 60K requests per hour, but the license for previous versions of the library do not constrain this feature." The answer to this question could easily make the difference as to whether a programmer develops their system's caching layer using ServiceStack or StackExchange.Redis, which is undoubtedly a practical programming problem. While the universally quantified questions are legal and won't every apply directly to a practical programming problem, the existentially quantified questions will often play a major role in how a practical programming problem is solved.

Furthermore, if the logic that renders existentially quantified questions about licensing "off-topic" were to be applied consistently across all StackOverflow questions, then a consequence would be the prohibition of a much larger class of questions that are relevant to programming on a practical level. There would be a case to make specific questions that are dependent upon the versioning of libraries, languages, components, databases and services off-topic as well, because certain features are only available in certain versions and the difference between versions often comes down to licensing (e.g. a question about SQL Server Agent, which is not included in Express; or, a question about scheduling Neo4j hot backups which are only available with an Enterprise license).

Update in response to Martijn Pieters' post

Please suspend judgment long enough to consider the general case. There exists a programmer, P, and two questions: Q1 and Q2. The answer to Q1 has a necessary dependency on the answer to Q2. Q1 is known to have a property X. Whether or not Q2 is has the property X is unknown. It is plain from the definition of dependency that determining the answer to a dependent question requires answering the questions upon which the dependent question depends. Regardless of what conclusion we draw about Q2, we can agree that P must solve Q2 in order to solve Q1. In general, a whole need not be equivalent to a sum of parts and a part need not have all the properties of the whole which it comprises (avoid fallacies of composition/decomposition). So, it is not logically necessary that Q2 has the property of X, but it is also not logically necessary that Q2 lacks the property X (e.g. Q1=How do I compute the square of an integer in JavaScript?;Q2=How do I multiply two integers in JavaScript?;). So, for an arbitrary Q2, it is not known whether the X property is true.

I assume that on these points, we can agree. Now, if X is to be meaningful, then there has to be some criteria that would allow one to determine if a given Q has X or does not have X. If Q2 being required for Q1 (having X) is not a sufficient condition for Q2 to have X, then how can one determine that criteria? Now consider the particular case where X means "is a practical programming problem", Q1 is "How do I best represent OMG's UML interfaces in .NET?" and Q2 is "What legal restrictions are applicable to referencing Microsoft's UML assemblies?". We also agree that Q3 "How do I best represent OMG's UML interfaces in .NET without using Microsoft Visual Studio's UML assemblies (because using those may have licensing implications)?" has the property X. The consensus with respect to Q3 seems to indicate that your criteria for Q2 to not be X is founded on the existence of an alternative solution to Q1 that does not depend on Q2 and also does not reference any elements from a specific set, T, of taboo SO topics, that includes licensing. So far, this is entirely consistent.

However, there is a practical issue with our criteria for X. Membership of a topic in the set T is completely independent of whether or not that member provides the optimal solution to a Q. So, while the solution to Q1 based on an answer to Q3 is certainly possible, it is also very possible that a solution to Q1 based on Q2 is a fundamentally better solution IN PRACTICE. The issue with including all Qs that reference "licensing" in T, is in the nature of licensing. Licenses allow programmers to leverage the prior work of other programmers. We probably can all agree that reinventing a wheel is a suboptimal solution if an existing wheel is available. Similarly, reimplementing a library is a suboptimal solution if an existing library is available. So, there is good evidence to suggest that the optimal solution to a practical programming problem such as Q1 may in fact lie in the solution to Q2 rather than Q3.

If we can agree that NIH is an anti-pattern and that licensing software is sometimes the optimal solution to a problem, then it follows that universally including "licensing" in T would have the implication that some solutions on StackOverflow must be suboptimal (specifically those where licensing software is in fact the optimal solution). Therefore, by considering all license-related questions to be impractical, we've effectively necessitated a degradation of the quality of potential solutions to problems that can be found on StackOverflow. Regardless, of how we define X - this seems like a bad thing that is an absolute necessity given the current paradigm.

14
  • 4
    So, to recap: You want to make legal questions referencing software on-topic, if the answer is short and clear-cut? Jun 16, 2015 at 23:38
  • @Deduplicator - Not quite. An additional requirement would be that it is clear how an answer to the question would solve a practical programming problem. Jun 16, 2015 at 23:44
  • And... how does "An additional requirement would be that it is clear how an answer to the question would solve a practical programming problem" restrict anything? I mean, it being legal to use it always solves the problem of needing it or a replacement? Jun 16, 2015 at 23:45
  • 1
    I don't see how any of the examples you posted (including the main one) are even about licensing. Rather, at best, they are about using a specific library or version of a product. Thus, the licensing tag isn't needed. Jun 16, 2015 at 23:47
  • @Deduplicator - yes, but some questions apply to specific programming problems (e.g. a specific detail of a specific license), and some apply to general problems and have a scope that could be conceivably addressed in a general legal/tech forum) - In order to make this explicit, the litmus test I suggested was that the answer would need to be an existentially quantified proposition. Jun 16, 2015 at 23:48
  • @BradleyDotNET - the question was closed as off-topic because it came down to an issue of the license for the specific library. My contention is that the question addresses a practical programming problem and is useful for programmers in the same way that other SO questions are. Jun 16, 2015 at 23:51
  • "a solution to Q1 based on Q2 is a fundamentally better solution IN PRACTICE" and so it restricting users from asking these kinds of questions. Sure, some people might be able to write an amazing question that follows this formula, but IN PRACTICE allowing licensing questions will just create more junk. SO is being practical, just not exactly as you suggest.
    – ryanyuyu
    Jun 17, 2015 at 13:19
  • @ryanyuyu - This is why I suggested the litmus test for valid licensing questions in my initial post. It is less restrictive than "Prohibit all licensing questions" but more restrictive than "allow any licensing questions". Jun 17, 2015 at 13:24
  • @ryanyuyu It's cited in the post. Jun 17, 2015 at 13:36
  • @smartcaveman my bad. Your post is just so long, that it's hard to digest all the content.
    – ryanyuyu
    Jun 17, 2015 at 13:46
  • @ryanyuyu - Yes, I think that's good feedback - I'm getting the impression that the people who are voting aren't really reading the whole thing. My objective was to be sympathetic to the opposing view point, while still explaining how it results in the necessary degradation of the quality of SO answers but I guess that required too many words. Jun 17, 2015 at 13:52
  • 1
    I read the whole thing and still disagree. Just because something might help programmers program does not mean it should be on Stack Overflow. The topics allowable are geared toward maximizing utility in the Q&A format for the specific audience. Which also means that just because the audience may be able to answer a question, doesn't mean that it should be asked. Programmers have opinions on how to code, but we don't allow questions which elicit those opinions. Jun 17, 2015 at 15:19
  • @MikeMcCaughan - While I maintain my stance that some licensing concerns have practical applicability programming, I do appreciate your feedback and thoughtful response. The key is in maximizing utility for the audience, as you said. What I'm learning from this is that the scope of StackOverflow may have become significantly narrower than it used to be (or that I would deduce is optimal) - but it's clearly based on decisions that have been made and all decisions have trade offs. e.g. It's certainly possible that the narrower scope results in applicability to a wider audience Jun 17, 2015 at 15:33
  • I get the point of this post. If you are programming you use certain tools, and even RAM memory of the computer has an effect on the program you make. I think it would be usefull if we have a site section to ask these kind of questions.
    – Tenzin
    Jun 18, 2015 at 20:03

1 Answer 1

21

Your question about licensing is still not a practical programming problem. You also had a practical programming problem, but in trying to solve that a separate question arose, namely about the license of a solution you chose.

That the license may prevent you from using that solution to your practical problem is neither here nor there.

You can ask that other question, and you can limit that other question: How do I best represent OMG's UML interfaces in .NET without using Microsoft Visual Studio's UML assemblies (because using those may have licensing implications).

Putting it in different words: licensing questions are not on topic just because you need to solve them first to get to your practical programming problem.

15
  • Martijn, Thank you for your input. Please see my update. Jun 17, 2015 at 13:05
  • 3
    @smartcaveman Your update just makes me even more convinced that licensing questions are off topic; primarily because your update is very hard to follow. You may want to simplify your argument if you want traction for your position. Jun 17, 2015 at 13:17
  • 6
    @smartcaveman: lets not draw this to ridiculous lengths. In order for me to code on projects at work I need to either fire up the VPN or travel to the office. That does not make questions about using a VPN or commuting to an office on topic here.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Jun 17, 2015 at 13:17
  • @GeorgeStocker - What part was difficult to follow? Jun 17, 2015 at 13:18
  • Martijn - The problem with the metaphor you just gave is that there is no reason to believe that the VPN is preferable to travel in terms of the resulting work that you will perform. The point of my update is that there can be a quite significant difference in the outcome when considering the trade-offs in using a licensed product or rolling your own library Jun 17, 2015 at 13:22
  • 1
    @smartcaveman: Different metaphor: I want to use a library that only works on AmigaOS, but I am coding on a Linux box. Questions on how to jury rig a Virtual Machine to try to get AmigaOS to run so I can build a bridge to that library are still not on topic either. The same applies to software licence questions.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Jun 17, 2015 at 13:25
  • 8
    @smartcaveman: a question on how to use the DLL is on topic, a question about the licence of that DLL is simply not. It doesn't matter that the licence question means you may not be able to use the DLL. That's not what this site is about.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Jun 17, 2015 at 13:26
  • 1
    Also, think about the absolute best outcome from this question: You get an answer from a lawyer that you can use as a defense in court. Now think of the likely answer: You get an answer from someone on the internet who may or may not be a lawyer, but can't give legal advice to you; but has done so, meaning that while you may have confidence in their answer, there's no way to know if their answer is actually legally viable. That's why licensing questions are off topic, no matter the ultimate goal for the question. Jun 17, 2015 at 13:31
  • @MartijnPieters - At least your stance is consistent. The second metaphor makes more sense. But, I would probably be sympathetic to a position that questions about how to optimally configure a deployment environment have some value here (although there's probably a point at which this would become more appropriate for ServerFault). So, at this point I understand your position - although I'm not clear on why you believe that it would help SO to provide the most value to practicing programmers. Jun 17, 2015 at 13:32
  • @GeorgeStocker - Absolutely agree, except one thing - Programmers from every company (including Microsoft) use SO. Consequently, the people most likely to have authoritative information on these questions are not necessarily unlikely to see or answer the questions. I've seen many instances on SO where questions about some product or spec were answered by their authors, so this doesn't seem too far fetched to me Jun 17, 2015 at 13:35
  • 2
    @smartcaveman Licensing is a legal question. No matter how smart programmers seem on the internet about legal issues, we're not lawyers. Licensing questions are legal issues. Consult a lawyer. You'll get what you paid for. Jun 17, 2015 at 13:37
  • @GeorgeStocker - Agreed. However, if I write (and own) a library and release it without an explicit license, then there is no individual on the planet more qualified than I am to tell another programmer whether or not I will sue them if they use it. Jun 17, 2015 at 13:40
  • @smartcaveman: yet your answer on the internet cannot be verified and authenticated. It wouldn't stand up in court if you later on denied making the statements.
    – Martijn Pieters Mod
    Jun 17, 2015 at 13:43
  • @GeorgeStocker - Also, it is much more likely that some other programmer who has encountered the same licensing issue will have conclusive information about the licensing requirements of that particular product than an arbitrary IP lawyer. Jun 17, 2015 at 13:43
  • @MartijnPieters - I don't think that's accurate, (simply because StackOverflow accounts can be authenticated). In the US (at least), emails are admissible in court and the login process for SO uses the same authentication mechanism (GMail) as my email address. That being said, we appear to be from different countries and I don't think either of us are legal professionals, so this line of discussion is probably venturing too far into speculation on both our parts. Jun 17, 2015 at 13:49

You must log in to answer this question.

Not the answer you're looking for? Browse other questions tagged .